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How To Not Know Anything: the simplicity of non-communi... - 6/2/2009 6:31:37 AM   
angelikaJ


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"Talking has been known to lead to communication if practiced carelessly."
Elise Matthesen

A common theme on these forums is "Why does my Master/submissive do 'X'?

A common answer is along the lines of: "Gosh, I don't know. Why don't you ask him/her?"

These are some of my thoughts related to communication, shamelessly culled from my [now hidden] journal.

< "How do were screw up any of our relationships?
Lack of clear, honest communication.
If we do not say what is on our minds out of fear or any of the other reasons/justifications we can come up with then we are depriving "the OTHER" of knowing us...our fears, our wants, our desires.
As we make the decision for that person about what is acceptable or not, what is important or not, we are depriving ourselves opportunities to build trust both with "the OTHER" and ourselves." >

 
I think many people have some interesting ideas that keep them from communicating to the people closest to them.
The oddest to me is the magical notion that if he/she loved us then they would just know.
 
Too, I think sometimes people don't say what is on their minds because they think they don't have the right words.
That too seems strange to me (although I admit to falling into it sometimes) as all you have to do is say what is in your mind and heart.
 
I know that once upon a time I kept parts of me closed off because I was afraid I would be seen as unacceptable...and with that fear, came fear of loss.
 
At some point I just realised the importance of being real; that what I desired were genuine connections.
 
But part of having a genuine connection with another person means knowing ourselves:
Our likes and dislikes on a fully concious level.
Our needs, wants and desires.
 
So, my questions to you are what things have (at times) gotten in the way of communicating and what things still need work?
AND
If it was at all a struggle for you, what has your journey been like?
 
Thanks!





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RE: How To Not Know Anything: the simplicity of non-com... - 6/2/2009 6:40:37 AM   
tsatske


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Since I have a Master who has 75% of His vocabulary rolled into the word 'uh-huh', I was truly hoping this would be an essay on the actual values of not knowing, learning to accept. He is honest, loving, caring, wonderful, and sadistic to boot, but talkative He is not.

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RE: How To Not Know Anything: the simplicity of non-com... - 6/2/2009 6:44:08 AM   
angelikaJ


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Sorry to disapppoint you.
:-(

Even if he is non-communicative, do you talk and do you feel heard?

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RE: How To Not Know Anything: the simplicity of non-com... - 6/2/2009 6:50:33 AM   
LaTigresse


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From what I have seen and experienced, the biggest road block to communication, is fear of rejection.

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RE: How To Not Know Anything: the simplicity of non-com... - 6/2/2009 6:51:44 AM   
sweetsub1957


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i am so lucky.  my Sir is all about communication, among other things.  ~getting warm fuzzies as i think about Him~

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RE: How To Not Know Anything: the simplicity of non-com... - 6/2/2009 7:00:45 AM   
breatheasone


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A big road block to communication is when you bring something to someones attention over, and over, and over, again.....they seem to hear you but continue on as if they haven't.

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RE: How To Not Know Anything: the simplicity of non-com... - 6/2/2009 7:11:47 AM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

A big road block to communication is when you bring something to someones attention over, and over, and over, again.....they seem to hear you but continue on as if they haven't.


Have you told them how that makes you feel?
When this happens I feel ______ ?

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RE: How To Not Know Anything: the simplicity of non-com... - 6/2/2009 7:45:15 AM   
chamberqueen


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I have held back in the past from communicating on a deeper level out of fear - fear that it would add to his pressures, fear that if he saw inside of me that there would be something he didn't like and things might end, or fear that I must somehow not be a good slave if I didn't react in certain ways when given a task or a new set of circumstances.

When I hear someone telling about how easy their Master is to approach and how nothing could ever get in the way of open communication I feel like I've just eaten something too sweet.  It isn' t that I'm not happy for them - I truly am.  I know there are plenty of relationships just like that out there.  However, it seems that there are just as many that are not. 

My biggest roadblock to good communication has been me.  I carry with me a fear of being a bother to people even though I have been away from relationships where I have been treated as such for years.  It is hard for me to let down my guard and say things like, "I need some extra attention right now".  I have had to convince myself that it is not selfish to let feelings like that be known.  There are so many times when I have felt that my Master could read my mind that I foolishly fell into the pattern of believing he really could.  That was unfair both to him and to me. 


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RE: How To Not Know Anything: the simplicity of non-com... - 6/2/2009 7:45:19 AM   
pompeii


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Why did you feel the need to hide your journal? (curious)

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RE: How To Not Know Anything: the simplicity of non-com... - 6/2/2009 7:52:58 AM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompeii

Why did you feel the need to hide your journal? (curious)


It is part of hiding one's profile...which is because I am not seeking: I have what I was looking for and more and declarations of "taken" fall on deaf eyes .

People can still PM me.
I can still email.
I am just invisible.

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RE: How To Not Know Anything: the simplicity of non-com... - 6/2/2009 9:01:11 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

The oddest to me is the magical notion that if he/she loved us then they would just know.

Makes me think of a Kate Nash song:

"I wish that you knew when I said two sugars, actually I meant three."

Yes...it is the type of thing that can be a big facet of non-communication, although I do think there are times when it actually does offer enlightenment (like finding out if someone is prone to do certain things based on their own thoughts rather than based on being informed). While, when applied too broadly, it's unrealistic, I think everyone wants to feel like their partner naturally resonates right in tune with them...and that it can be an indication of how well-matched the partners are.

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RE: How To Not Know Anything: the simplicity of non-com... - 6/2/2009 9:34:17 AM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ


 
So, my questions to you are what things have (at times) gotten in the way of communicating and what things still need work?
AND
If it was at all a struggle for you, what has your journey been like?




All the usual things...fear of rejection, fear of losing, worrying about *not being good enough*, uncertainty, listening to him speak but not hearing what he has to say, not trusting him to hear what *I* have to say, misinterpreting, being too wrapped up in what I *feel*,......I could go on.

All of the above will likely need attention at some time or other: it's not been eliminated..the potential is still there for it to occur and it still does.

Regarding the struggles....having had them with every human relationship I've ever had, I'd say I'm left with the feeling that it was *worth it*...I've risked more, so that's probably why. It could be said that I wouldn't have done that unless HE made it possible to do so.

As this thing called communication is a two way thing....the amount of good feelings, or satisfaction, stem from that. The individual moments or instances where it's all difficult, don't seem to overshadow the entire picture.

*Communication is key*... Oh yawn, yawn.  No-one would argue that fact.

agirl














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RE: How To Not Know Anything: the simplicity of non-com... - 6/2/2009 9:58:14 AM   
bearly2001


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i posted last week about a dom's "voice" and its importance in communication. i was gratified at the various responses and this posting dovetails nicely with the issues that arose.

i am one who believes that all relationships are dependant on communication.. and communication on many levels, not just words and their context. the ability to communicate literally defines our relationship to those around us and how much of us we have the courage to expose. but if our communication skills are stunted...if we are illiterate in the language needed for connection.. we will not see the prize it when offered, or be able to answer another's plea for sharing.

non-communication is toxic to all relationships, current ones or those we may potentially start. a failure to share ourselves is the ultimate cause of many a relationship. an unwillingess to hear the voices of those seeking us or a lack of "language" to express our true natures are common. the laziness of assuming.. of not taking the time to truly validate what others think and feel is endemic in our instant gratification world. we accept our opinions of others as fact, our beliefs as unaltered truth and then fail to put in the effort to confirm the validity of our assumptions.

there can be many reasons this toxicity may exist. it can be intentional, to withhold or to literally "constipate" a relationship.. to fail to expel the "waste" and poisons that can cause a relationship to wither. many use withholding of communication as a passive aggressive way of venting anger and frustration.. or to self-sabotage any budding closeness, due to insecurity or crippling fear of intimacy and vulnerability. it can be unintentional.. when we let our own demons drown out the voices of others.. even those that seek us. our ability to "hear" can be compromised by the white noise acquired from our past failures, our experiences or our unrealistic expectations.

i look forward to reading others' views on this most basic issue in our relationships with the world and its inhabitants.

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RE: How To Not Know Anything: the simplicity of non-com... - 6/2/2009 9:59:29 AM   
subtlebutterfly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tsatske

Since I have a Master who has 75% of His vocabulary rolled into the word 'uh-huh', I was truly hoping this would be an essay on the actual values of not knowing, learning to accept. He is honest, loving, caring, wonderful, and sadistic to boot, but talkative He is not.

yanno..there's so much you can say with one word...take yes for example
yes can mean.."oooookay fine since you really want me to" yes can mean "no" yes can mean "of course you friggin idiot" yes can mean "maybe" yes can mean "i'm not sure" it can mean so so SO many things..I love the word yes personally..

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

From what I have seen and experienced, the biggest road block to communication, is fear of rejection.

agreeeeeeed


< Message edited by subtlebutterfly -- 6/2/2009 10:04:07 AM >


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RE: How To Not Know Anything: the simplicity of non-com... - 6/2/2009 10:34:47 AM   
MsFlutter


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Most valuable lesson learned:
 
Communication can stumble when one half of the partnership perceives rejection of a concept to be rejection of the entire person
 
Separate the issue or action from the person - speak to that issue/action specifically and reassure your partner of their place in your life 


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RE: How To Not Know Anything: the simplicity of non-com... - 6/2/2009 10:48:30 AM   
lovingpet


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Well now, if I haven't struggled with this issue on a rather colossal scale recently!  The sad part is, it has been over the course of about a year now in a relationship that I would considere quite extraordinary and wonderful.  Honesty and trust have been the huge factors in developing this particular relationship the way it has and to function at the levels of play we enjoy.  I think part of it was that I got so wrapped up in trusting him and listening to his revelations without judgement, that I failed to realize that I was remaining quite closed.  It was a shock to my senses and a blow to my ego to find out that my grasping had hurt him very deeply.  I didn't even see what I was doing.

Part of it is that this is my first serious partner in this aspect of my life.  I did a good job picking him and he did well waiting on me.  The only problem comes with the new discoveries made along the way.  I don't do well with them and just have to deny them.  I can't let that be true, nor acknowledge someone else knowing me better than I know myself.  How dare he be right!!!!! LOL!  I realized with stunning clarity that I would openly admit to things to others that I still vehemently denied when discussing them with him.  I laugh about this, but it was no laughing matter when I had to face what I was doing and knew how much damage it had done.  I am working on fixing that now.

I also tend to want to be able to do a dissertation on what I am thinking or feeling before being willing to bring it to my partner.  I must say that this has interfered frequently in our process.  Only a rare few times did I ever just bring my mess to him and only because it was just so overwhelming that I didn't know how to handle it on my own.  Otherwise, I have consistently said that I need  more time in order to talk about this.  I needed to sort out my feelings on the matter.  I don't really know what I'm thinking, but when I do he would be the first to know.  I pretty well see this for the game playing it really was.  Once again, I'm working on it.

Trusting myself is another key issue.  How often we hear, "Trust me,"  and that's the easy part.  The hard part is deciding if we have really chosen well who to trust.  It is a matter of having my standards for selection fail me repeatedly.  What am I missing?  What is the fatal flaw I am blind to and will come back to bite me eventually?  In the back of my mind I know that such a "bite" will be far worse from a relationship such as this than anything I've known before because of the sheer level of vulnerability that is needed.  Trusting myself to know when to put on the brakes is another part of this same issue.  Will I just go and do something so completely outside of my accepted behavior?  How will I respond to such a situation if it arises?  Choosing a good partner should make this worry just disappear, but it doesn't.  Once again, I am working on it.

Coming to terms with myself is another big issue.  I find that I have trouble telling another person something about myself that I don't yet accept, understand, or know how to deal with.  If it is that big and scary to me, then it just makes it extremely difficult to let it out.  Wound around that is the whole fear of rejection thing, judgement, and more.  It is funny how that works for me since my partners have darker things a part of them than any I have revealed, yet I did not find myself repulsed or running away.  I actually found it all intriguing, much as they find mine when I will let them see the light of day.  Insecurity is not a word I would normally use to describe myself, but I think that is exactly what vulerability actually is.  It is letting people in so deep that they get to live among the parts of my world that utterly quake with my own fear and shame.  I thought I was so good at this because there was nothing about myself I was so afraid or ashamed of.  I was wrong.  I have a journey ahead to bring this to peace.

I think that is really the crux of it though.  It is the "I" that gets in the way.  It is what I want to share, what I want to protect, what I am afraid of that impairs my ability to communicate at such an intimate level.  Of course the kneejerk response isto give all the reasons why it is the "he" or the "she" that makes it so "I" can't share these certain things.  In the end, if I can accept my own role and that the "he" or the "she" is doing what is possible with what the "I" is offering, then that begins to clear the way for the "we" to finally be able to grow closer.  Self responsibility goes a long way in any relationship.

lovingpet


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RE: How To Not Know Anything: the simplicity of non-com... - 6/2/2009 11:04:35 AM   
IronBear


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The two biggest problems I have encountered are:

  1. The person I'm talking to listens to the first few words, shuts off and makes their own minds up what I have/am saying. ~ Result: 90% error in what they think I said which is a problem when they act on it.
  2. The person I'm trying to discuss an issue with decides that it is a personal attack and fail to understand that the discussion is about the problem and not them. ~ Result: A great deal of wasted time, emotion and effort trying to get the discussion back on track or the matter is dropped and the problem is not dealt with.
Both of these problems I teach the ways to avoid and the value of asking for clarification before getting knickers in a twist..


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RE: How To Not Know Anything: the simplicity of non-com... - 6/2/2009 11:10:35 AM   
DesFIP


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Fear of rejection is part of not communicating. Another part is learned, if we learn that our partner reacts badly when told things that criticise them, then we don't want a repetition of being yelled at, blamed etc. You can teach someone that it isn't safe to be honest with you.

But verbal communication isn't the only way. Someone who doesn't talk a lot can still listen and can still pay attention. If I do something he really likes and his back arches, and he growls in response to it I don't need him to say afterwards "when you did that it was amazing". It's nice to hear it but it isn't necessary. If I pay attention I will know he loved it. Beyond that, if I can say to him that I just love it when he bites my neck, I don't really need a long conversation on it. I just need him to listen attentively and to do it again when he wants that same response.

Communication requires both of us, one to talk or otherwise express something and the other to listen without editorializing in his/her own head and pay attention to what we say or do. It isn't a one way street.

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RE: How To Not Know Anything: the simplicity of non-com... - 6/2/2009 7:02:10 PM   
stella41b


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For me the biggest issue by far is when someone uses words well past their 'mean by' date.

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RE: How To Not Know Anything: the simplicity of non-com... - 6/2/2009 7:14:48 PM   
Joseff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ


 
I think many people have some interesting ideas that keep them from communicating to the people closest to them.
The oddest to me is the magical notion that if he/she loved us then they would just know





If I had a nickle for every time I've said, "I can't read your mind."


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