RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese

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Mezrem -> RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese (6/4/2009 11:50:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse I have to say, all of you bitter anti-Obamaites are entertaining to watch spin. I am saying that it is apparent that we, the citizens of this world, have become far too focused on gluttony and immediate gratification. We elect people to lead us, as countries. We expect our leaders to do what we, as individuals, either cannot or will not do. Then we criticize them for doing the job we elected them to do. Sucks to be them but hey, they asked for the job. Someone, I don't care if it is the pope, but someone, has to grow some balls and force the greedy and unwilling to give up their wasteful ways, cuz........apparently we all want someone else to do it and keep our own freedoms to do, have, whatever we want and still bitch about how much the results, of everyone doing and having what they want, sucks. So spin away......matters not to me. I do not, nor have I ever cared that any of the big three came crashing down. They and their union employees brought it upon themselves. We the consumers didn't exactly help. Those gas guzzling Hummers were so cool and everyone wanted to rock one like a rap star. Well party on Garth, you will not be here to see the long term effects. Your kids and grandkids will truely suffer, but what do you care cuz yanno.......we don't want anyone to tell us what to do, even if it is the wisest thing. quote: Yes he did ask for the job and won it. Is the prior administation partly to blame for the mess we are in.. yep they sure as hell are. What is being tacked onto it now though is not helping. And who is to deside what is wasteful? Who is it that will take the choices from me? As you stand by and cheer them on remember that the rights they take from me today may lead them to the rights and things you hold dear tomorrow.

LaTigresse -> RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese (6/4/2009 11:56:27 AM)
When a spoiled child demands everything in the toy store, do you give it to them just because you can? When do you draw the line? Where does it end? We are certainly a nation of spoilt children.

Mezrem -> RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese (6/4/2009 12:01:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse When a spoiled child demands everything in the toy store, do you give it to them just because you can? When do you draw the line? Where does it end? We are certainly a nation of spoilt children. I reject your view that we are sheep or children that need minding. Indeed though where would it end? Will we keep quiet as our rights are stipped away one by one? How about when they come for the guns? Perhaps it will be when we can no longer lift a voice in disagree with any of it. Maybe when it is too late and we or our children will live with the boot of the "wise" on our necks.

Thadius -> RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese (6/4/2009 12:02:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse How about.........novel idea I know..........we come up with cleaner energy so that we don't need oil at all. Cuz, it isn't exactly a renewable resource. And green house effect........pfffffftttttt....Who cares right!?! I am all in favor of working towards cleaner and renewable sources of energy, but that does not change the fact that we still depend on fossil fuels for most of our energy needs. So the question then becomes what do we do in the meantime, while newer and cleaner sources are being developed? Do we keep the status quo and stay under the thumb of the other nations that produce oil, or do we attempt to tap some of our own resources? How about the jobs that could and would be created by increased drilling and refining? I know the old 10 years before any oil card is about to be played, so let me head that one off at the pass on 2 fronts. First we have been hearing that same reason for the last 30+ years, just think we could have been supplying more of our own oil 20 years ago... Secondly, there are many wells that could be putting more oil into the system within a year and a half. The only bottleneck would be at the refinery level, as many of the eco-sensitive types have been fighting the building of new refineries as long as I can remember, and we do need more refining capabilities (especially considering the various blends and requirements of different regions, seasons, and states). To your points about "not needing", who cares if I need a Hummer or not? There are many things in our everyday lives that we don't need, but are just as much a necessity (I know that seems like a contradiction). We don't need telephones, the internet, computers, or many of the other luxuries that have become the norm, but we would be lost without many of them, and I dare say less productive. The point I am trying to make is that when it comes to a politician deciding what I need or not, where does the line get drawn? Do we give in to the recommendations of the UN about how much red meat we need? Do we sit back and allow soda, coffee, or chocolate to be done away with because they are not needs? There is a slippery slope when we allow the government to decide what is needed and what is not. Just think how this would apply to medical treatment, if or when healthcare is nationalized. Somebody in a D.C. office will be deciding if somebody, or on a grander scale everybody, needs a particular treatment, medication, or even screenings. Back to the energy thing briefly, what do you make of the statement of our president about Iran having a right to have nuclear energy? Just think about that one for a bit, not only the hypocracy (since we aren't allowed to build more), but the implications that such a statement can and will have on the world. Those are just a few of my thoughts on the matter. I wish you well, Thadius

Sanity -> RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese (6/4/2009 12:08:49 PM)
Well, kudos to you, because although I disagree, I know that you don't speak for the world nor are we all your children who you have any authority to exercise control over, at least you come right out and say that what you want is dictatorial control over everyone. Obama though, he's a big wuss because all he does is double-talk and beat around the Bush (so to speak). We know he's in your corner, but he's just a mealy-mouthed pansy about it. quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse I have to say, all of you bitter anti-Obamaites are entertaining to watch spin. I am saying that it is apparent that we, the citizens of this world, have become far too focused on gluttony and immediate gratification. We elect people to lead us, as countries. We expect our leaders to do what we, as individuals, either cannot or will not do. Then we criticize them for doing the job we elected them to do. Sucks to be them but hey, they asked for the job. Someone, I don't care if it is the pope, but someone, has to grow some balls and force the greedy and unwilling to give up their wasteful ways, cuz........apparently we all want someone else to do it and keep our own freedoms to do, have, whatever we want and still bitch about how much the results, of everyone doing and having what they want, sucks. So spin away......matters not to me. I do not, nor have I ever cared that any of the big three came crashing down. They and their union employees brought it upon themselves. We the consumers didn't exactly help. Those gas guzzling Hummers were so cool and everyone wanted to rock one like a rap star. Well party on Garth, you will not be here to see the long term effects. Your kids and grandkids will truely suffer, but what do you care cuz yanno.......we don't want anyone to tell us what to do, even if it is the wisest thing.

Musicmystery -> RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese (6/4/2009 12:10:25 PM)
quote: Do we keep the status quo and stay under the thumb of the other nations that produce oil, or do we attempt to tap some of our own resources? How about the jobs that could and would be created by increased drilling and refining? Hi Thadius, While various corners are consistently hot to drill, it would not make much difference. First, we'd still own those resources, whether we tap them now or later, when oil is even more scarce. Second, even if we drilled everywhere, the impact would be small--Venezuela, Russia and the Mid-East still have the bulk of the oil. But I replied because of your last word--refining. We have LONG had insufficient refining capacity. Trouble is, no one wants a refinery in their backyard. Until that bottle neck is resolved, drilling for oil will remain the red herring it is--oil producers will sell that oil abroad, where market prices are high and where they will continue to climb as China and developing nations demand more. Live well, Tim

LaTigresse -> RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese (6/4/2009 12:13:10 PM)
Thadius I agree with you in that it is a very slippery slope. And I certainly do not have even one tenth of the answers. Of course, in this country, with our hard won history of freedom, we are sensitive to losing our rights and freedoms. With good reason. I get frustrated when I see many of the same people that scream the loudest about "wise ones" or whatever, taking our freedoms away but continue, (as do I, I will not lie) to live as though there are no repercussions to what we are doing today. We knew decades ago that there was going to be problems (both maintaining a supply and dealing with the waste) with fossil fuels, yet we stuck our heads in the sand and said "lalalalalalaaaaaaaaaa......I can't heeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaarrrrr youuuuu!" and continued our path of slow self destruction. Now the results of all of that are clearer and people are beginning to realise something needs to be done. Yet no one seems to want to give up their own personal agendas to actually DO anything. And god forbid ANYONE force it upon us. So, where is the happy medium? I mean seriously. Beyond whatever party or individual is in power, beyond getting our panties bunched about current financial freakouts. Where is the longterm, happy medium?

LaTigresse -> RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese (6/4/2009 12:21:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Well, kudos to you, because although I disagree, I know that you don't speak for the world nor are we all your children who you have any authority to exercise control over, at least you come right out and say that what you want is dictatorial control over everyone. Obama though, he's a big wuss because all he does is double-talk and beat around the Bush (so to speak). We know he's in your corner, but he's just a mealy-mouthed pansy about it. Yanno Sanity, you really could take lessons from Thadius. Rarely do he and I agree on many topics but there is an art to intelligent adult debate that seems to evade you. You remind me of a female dominant on the forums that loves to argue in circles and take snipey pot shots when others do not agree with her. If you managed to refine your approach and leave out the childish attacks, I might actually read and learn something rather than shake my head in wonder. Two people really can agree to disagree without all that nonsense. The sad thing, my last reply to you, I allowed you to drag me down into your childish shit.... enjoy it because it will not happen again. I would continue to discuss this with you but I don't think it's very productive and I don't like wasting my time.

Mezrem -> RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese (6/4/2009 12:22:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Thadius I agree with you in that it is a very slippery slope. And I certainly do not have even one tenth of the answers. Of course, in this country, with our hard won history of freedom, we are sensitive to losing our rights and freedoms. With good reason. I get frustrated when I see many of the same people that scream the loudest about "wise ones" or whatever, taking our freedoms away but continue, (as do I, I will not lie) to live as though there are no repercussions to what we are doing today. We knew decades ago that there was going to be problems (both maintaining a supply and dealing with the waste) with fossil fuels, yet we stuck our heads in the sand and said "lalalalalalaaaaaaaaaa......I can't heeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaarrrrr youuuuu!" and continued our path of slow self destruction. Now the results of all of that are clearer and people are beginning to realise something needs to be done. Yet no one seems to want to give up their own personal agendas to actually DO anything. And god forbid ANYONE force it upon us. So, where is the happy medium? I mean seriously. Beyond whatever party or individual is in power, beyond getting our panties bunched about current financial freakouts. Where is the longterm, happy medium? Reading this I offer you an appology for the acid tenor of my prior posts. It seemed from your posts you where offering up a hard line stand. While your question was not posed to me I will offer an answer if you will. It will come from people in the middle or at least those willing to come to the middle. Maybe from the smartest people on my side of the room and the smartest people on your side of the room.

LaTigresse -> RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese (6/4/2009 12:25:31 PM)
Mezrem, that is the key I think. To get past the "your side and my side" because big picture, we have to all be on the same side.

Mezrem -> RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese (6/4/2009 12:35:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Mezrem, that is the key I think. To get past the "your side and my side" because big picture, we have to all be on the same side. In short I agree and I get caught up in it as much as some, despite my attempts not too. In the end perhaps being able to focus on comon ground we will find our way through the maze of left and right. Reflecting on your posts I even in a way agree with them for the most part. While I don't like the words or thoughts of being forced.. I do think, and hope we can find a way to achieve goals like clean energy and finding some one who can lead us that way. In the end we both want to get to the same place. Perhaps we can come to terms along the way on how to get there.

Thadius -> RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese (6/4/2009 12:42:33 PM)
LT, I think you hit the nail squarely on the head when you talk about people not being willing to give up their PERSONAL agendas. Instead of focusing on what is in the best interest of this country. There must be a middle ground that can be reached, what it is I am not wise enough or informed enough to speculate on. Folks from all walks of life have turned political and national discussions into the new bloodsports. Instead of the arenas and gladiators we have causes and politicians. We watch from the edges of our seats, with baited breath to see who will be victorious. We allow these elected and appointed officials (on both sides of the aisle) to blow smoke up our asses and don't hold them accountable to what we the people need and want. Perhaps, because folks have bought into the notion that these elected folks must know better than us, otherwise they wouldn't have been elected. It's a vicious cycle, and the spiral continues to lead us downward. I personally believe that part of the answer to the energy issues, and our economic issues, lie someplace in the doing all that we can to better ourselves and to stop doing so with one or both of our arms tied behind our backs. Perhaps, having the government mandate the building of regional refineries and nuclear plants would help with some of the issues, and at the same time create numerous jobs. Meanwhile, we need to keep pushing for cleaner and new technology. Subsidizing the building of solar and wind generation, on-demand water heaters as opposed to the outdated and wasteful storage types most folks use now. Like I said I have more questions than I have answers, but we need to start someplace. To the original point that got this part of the discussion started, if somebody can afford and wants to buy a Hummer, let em buy it. If they want to mount 45 inch super swampers on it and further reduce their gas mileage, let em. It's their money, and when they buy or spend on such luxuries they are putting that money into the hands of many other folks (the vendors, the distributors, the manufacturers, and the laborers). If and when folks stop buying such things or when there is no longer profit in it, the market will correct itself. Some folks will buy a Prius (spelling?), some folks will put an electric motor in their Hummer, some will go to diesel and others will develop other ways of powering those hulking beasts. Some of mankinds greatest innovations have come because of necessity and or emergencies. I am confident that the inventive and creative types will eventually come up with that new technology that will allow those that enjoy mud bogging and off-roading to do so in a much cleaner and cheaper way. After all, anything and everything is possible in this great country of ours. I wish you well, Thadius P.S. sorry about the wall of text.

DomKen -> RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese (6/4/2009 12:49:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I've got a question for all you "personal responsibility is paramount" conservatives, if an employer has a contract with an employee guaranteeing certain pension and retirement medical fund deposits be made every year and that employer instead uses accounting shenanigans to "loan" himself those deposits with no enforced terms of repayment or interest payments what should happen to that employer when his obligations to pay those pensions and to provide the medical insurance those deposits were supposed to provide for comes due? If those were the facts then they are fiduciary violations under ERISA and repayment/jail time the remedies. In actuality, I seriously doubt that happened. How else do you explain GM saying it is going bankrupt due to pension and medical insurance obligations to its present retirees? Simply put GM propped up its profits by loaning itself the money in the pension and medical insurance funds it was contractually obligated to make deposits in. The facts are easily obtainable yet everyone acts like the GM execs did nothing wrong when in actual fact at least 3 or 4 generations of top GM execs have systematically ignored the long term health of the company in order to boost stock prices in the short term.

Loki45 -> RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese (6/4/2009 1:13:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mezrem I reject your view that we are sheep or children that need minding. Indeed though where would it end? Will we keep quiet as our rights are stipped away one by one? How about when they come for the guns? Perhaps it will be when we can no longer lift a voice in disagree with any of it. Maybe when it is too late and we or our children will live with the boot of the "wise" on our necks. You can reject it all you like. We as Americans are proving it to be true daily. Parents can't raise their children or make them stop watching TV, so we have the FCC being parents for us, banning things that might be "too mature" and that younger viewers "might see." People can't act decently toward each other and rely on the "authorities" to enforce lame laws designed to strip people of their individuality and make them conform to how "everyone else does it." People can't be trusted to drive a reasonable speed like they do overseas, so we have highways with slower and slower speed limits. We can't be bothered to turn off or simply "not listen to" things we find offensive, so we ask the government to step in and control what people can and can't say to protect our delicate sensibilities. Reject the notion all you like. As a people, we've been heading toward the future depicted in "Demolition Man" for quite sometime. As Simon Phoenix said "The world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself."

CruelNUnsual -> RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese (6/4/2009 2:07:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I've got a question for all you "personal responsibility is paramount" conservatives, if an employer has a contract with an employee guaranteeing certain pension and retirement medical fund deposits be made every year and that employer instead uses accounting shenanigans to "loan" himself those deposits with no enforced terms of repayment or interest payments what should happen to that employer when his obligations to pay those pensions and to provide the medical insurance those deposits were supposed to provide for comes due? If those were the facts then they are fiduciary violations under ERISA and repayment/jail time the remedies. In actuality, I seriously doubt that happened. How else do you explain GM saying it is going bankrupt due to pension and medical insurance obligations to its present retirees? Simply put GM propped up its profits by loaning itself the money in the pension and medical insurance funds it was contractually obligated to make deposits in. The facts are easily obtainable yet everyone acts like the GM execs did nothing wrong when in actual fact at least 3 or 4 generations of top GM execs have systematically ignored the long term health of the company in order to boost stock prices in the short term. Where did they "loan themselves" any money? Saying it doesnt make it so. As far as "going bankrupt due to pension and medical insurance obligations", that is a statement that you need to put into its entire context. Their costs of production are higher because of legacy costs that foreign competitors dont have, and because of subsidies their governments put up to help them build market share. Legacy costs are higher than projected primarily because of increased longevity and medical technology. Not some bs about "borrowing money".

DomKen -> RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese (6/4/2009 2:37:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I've got a question for all you "personal responsibility is paramount" conservatives, if an employer has a contract with an employee guaranteeing certain pension and retirement medical fund deposits be made every year and that employer instead uses accounting shenanigans to "loan" himself those deposits with no enforced terms of repayment or interest payments what should happen to that employer when his obligations to pay those pensions and to provide the medical insurance those deposits were supposed to provide for comes due? If those were the facts then they are fiduciary violations under ERISA and repayment/jail time the remedies. In actuality, I seriously doubt that happened. How else do you explain GM saying it is going bankrupt due to pension and medical insurance obligations to its present retirees? Simply put GM propped up its profits by loaning itself the money in the pension and medical insurance funds it was contractually obligated to make deposits in. The facts are easily obtainable yet everyone acts like the GM execs did nothing wrong when in actual fact at least 3 or 4 generations of top GM execs have systematically ignored the long term health of the company in order to boost stock prices in the short term. Where did they "loan themselves" any money? Saying it doesnt make it so. As far as "going bankrupt due to pension and medical insurance obligations", that is a statement that you need to put into its entire context. Their costs of production are higher because of legacy costs that foreign competitors dont have, and because of subsidies their governments put up to help them build market share. Legacy costs are higher than projected primarily because of increased longevity and medical technology. Not some bs about "borrowing money". http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64599-2005Apr18.html Dozens more are available with a simple google search.

Sanity -> RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese (6/4/2009 3:35:03 PM)
I couldn't have dragged you down there, my elevators didn't go that low. Honestly, your posts are very often purely insulting, so please refrain from blaming me for all the nastiness that comes from the tips of your fingers. If what I wrote angers you that much then your rage is not only coming from within but it must also be aimed at within (yourself) because what made you spit all that hatred and vitriol was simply your own words stated in a slightly different way. And the kudos I sent your way were real, I truly meant that I appreciate how you voice your opinions so strongly. If only Obama spoke his mind as forcefully as you. That would be great, really. He wouldn't be president today, but he would have much more of my respect. And it's hysterical, what you wrote about taking lessons from Thadius. You might want to try looking in a mirror sometime... quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Well, kudos to you, because although I disagree, I know that you don't speak for the world nor are we all your children who you have any authority to exercise control over, at least you come right out and say that what you want is dictatorial control over everyone. Obama though, he's a big wuss because all he does is double-talk and beat around the Bush (so to speak). We know he's in your corner, but he's just a mealy-mouthed pansy about it. Yanno Sanity, you really could take lessons from Thadius. Rarely do he and I agree on many topics but there is an art to intelligent adult debate that seems to evade you. You remind me of a female dominant on the forums that loves to argue in circles and take snipey pot shots when others do not agree with her. If you managed to refine your approach and leave out the childish attacks, I might actually read and learn something rather than shake my head in wonder. Two people really can agree to disagree without all that nonsense. The sad thing, my last reply to you, I allowed you to drag me down into your childish shit.... enjoy it because it will not happen again. I would continue to discuss this with you but I don't think it's very productive and I don't like wasting my time.

Sanity -> RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese (6/4/2009 4:35:52 PM)
GM's problems stem from the 1950's when the Unions found they could get virtually any of their demands met, even to the point of killing the proverbial goose. The straw (so many proverbs, so little time) came when gas prices skyrocketed and then because of the financials collapse (Fannie and Freddie, etc) money to buy new cars dried up to the point that even Toyota is struggling with losses. No, I don't want to see any of them layed off or fired, but Barack Obama has never run so much as a hot dog stand, so he has no business trying to run the automobile industry. Besides the fact that he hasn't the background or experience it isn't legal for him to do so, especially the way in which he's going about it. But now he's bought it, it's his. Whatever happens to it (and it doesn't look good from my perspective) it will be a part of Obama's legacy. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Thanks for the links, but i have two problems. The first is just a cleverly edited piece which is anti Obama. Is there any chance of his complete speech please. The second is off topic, you started this one about GM and not sub prime, that has been done already. Wiki states that GMs problems stemed from 2000, so whoevers fault that was, it wasnt Obamas, as you stated in the OP. As for me casting aspersions about BUsh, well he had 8 years in office, if he could see changes needed to be made, why didnt he make them ? You say i havent any facts. GM employed around 240,000 people. Add to that all the subsidary suppliers involved and you have a massive workforce. So again, would you have prefered to see all those people be made redundant ? I understand your point about court appointed advisers to restructure GM, but how could this have happened without the TARPs loan. ( Sorry if that isnt the right wording )

Politesub53 -> RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese (6/4/2009 4:44:22 PM)
Im sure large manufacturing companies have always had similar problems. The fact they were so large and had agreements with banks, meant cash flow was never a problem. When the banks started to fail and credit dried up, then the cracks became apparent. Union demands, and more directly, constant strikes, bought about the end of the UK car industry. Nationalising Leyland Motors, delayed its downfall, but no more than that. Im wondering if any costing has been done by the Government, to see what thoe actual cost in dollars to the tax payer would have been, if GM had been left to fail.

CruelNUnsual -> RE: Government Motors Is Selling The Hummer Division To The Chinese (6/4/2009 4:52:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64599-2005Apr18.html Dozens more are available with a simple google search. Yes, and Im sure all dozens will, like this one, say nothing about borrowing any money that was supposed to be contributed. The article you linked is correct about OPEB and accounting changes made, but it is not correct that at the time GM bargained the benefits as if they had no cost. Valuations of retiree medical costs were a huge issue in bargaining, with days spent debating the assumptions to be used for "horse trading" medical benefits vs wage increases. The article is also incorrect that the benefits were not pre-funded. Despite there being no law requiring it, GM funded retiree health care benefits through a 501(c)(9) trust (VEBA) with assets of about $50 billion: "The agreement on the eve of GM’s expected bankruptcy filing next week modifies a 2007 accord between GM and the UAW that would have capped GM’s burgeoning retiree health care liabilities. That agreement called for GM to transfer assets—currently valued at $10 billion—from an existing voluntary employees’ beneficiary association to a new VEBA controlled by the UAW. For about $20 billion in cash and other contributions to the trust, GM no longer would have been responsible for retiree health care benefits as of Jan. 1, 2010. The accumulated value of those assets was estimated at roughly $50 billion last year." In the modified agreement the new VEBA is funded by cash from the old VEBA, preferred and common stock in the restructured GM, and an additional $2.5 billion in cash over the next 7 years. As far as "contractual obligations" go, since 1989 all medical benefits have explicitly been reducible, subject to later collective bargaining. The new agreement eliminates vision benefits and increases retiree's co-pays for other benefits. You also claim the same with regard to pension contributions, more bs. the level of pension contributions is also negotiated and subject to IRS/ERISA minimum funding requirements which have always been met. It is one of the best funded pension trusts in the country, all of which of course have suffered from the market declines. (Assets were $70 billion late in 2007) But to claim that any assets were diverted for the benefit of the company is absurd.

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