RE: breaking down the submissive

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LaTigresse -> RE: breaking down the submissive (6/4/2009 12:03:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero "Breaking" does seem to be the hotpoint word here. The process of stripping and laying bare veils upon veils of the masks Calla refers to is something I personally would find an appealing process to go through, It's a process I've taken to myself as far as holding thoughts, presumptions and ideals critically accountable. I don't think I'd see it very differently from an emotional version of being fully restrained and naked, at the mercy of your partner. Depending on how fully you are comfortable with TPE, it's a non sequitutr to take the next step to say that some people do trust their partner./mentor to strip away the rust and dust, and build strengtheners and varnish. In the way we would trust a personal trainer at a gym to build us intophysical shape, that trust can be given over to someone who will do it more internally. I think these sorts of topics are always easily defensive because so much of what we consider our individuality is so tied to maintaining a foothold on at least the nucleus of our emotional and psychological innards that there is a certain taboo about being so open that you can potentially "lose yourself" (for whatever that would mean). There is an appeal to that process. I think that my reaction is to the, almost flippant, way some people toss the phrase about. "You will come to me and I will break you and make you mine!" (in booming ubercool dom voice) Not only is that whole, insta-slave/Dom relationship cheesy, it's also kind of scary. There is a certain carelessness that just sends a red light flashing and bells ringing in my head. What you write about is something I see happening carefully, between two people that have an awareness and knowledge of one another. A dominant/master/mistress that has their sub/slave's best interests in mind.

NihilusZero -> RE: breaking down the submissive (6/4/2009 12:12:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse I think that my reaction is to the, almost flippant, way some people toss the phrase about. "You will come to me and I will break you and make you mine!" (in booming ubercool dom voice) Not only is that whole, insta-slave/Dom relationship cheesy, it's also kind of scary. That was my initial reaction as well. And then a bunch of cool people started popping in here and discussing variable angles on multiple perspectives of the issue and it's gotten quite interesting.

leadership527 -> RE: breaking down the submissive (6/4/2009 12:15:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin Very true, with physical BDSM you can ask about see what experience they have, are they good at needles or knife play what do local DM's think etc etc but when dealing with psychology something that to be honest we do not really understand that much anyway and varies from person to person how can we be sure we are risking it with the right person In my case? because she knew me intimately (as in, we lived together under the same roof) for 13 years. How or why someone would do this in their 2nd month together is a really good question though. Even if I get past the "breaking" word and rethink it as "reshaping", to do deep work in this area without causing harm requires a LOT of knowledge about the person in question. Fundamentally, I would never allow someone who used this phrase to do "it" on me (or my wife) because it is so adversarial. I see zero place for individual winning and losing when it comes to relationships. Word choice really does matter.

colouredin -> RE: breaking down the submissive (6/4/2009 12:19:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 In my case? because she knew me intimately (as in, we lived together under the same roof) for 13 years. How or why someone would do this in their 2nd month together is a really good question though. Even if I get past the "breaking" word and rethink it as "reshaping", to do deep work in this area without causing harm requires a LOT of knowledge about the person in question. Thing is I can understand the desire to help in certain situations, to maybe increase confidence or improve their responses to things but I do not see the merit of completely 'breaking someone down' at all. In relationships though we do that, when you know people you do try and build them up in certain areas, tackle the difficult issues, thats fine. I agree with you that to me the term is the wrong one.

candisa -> RE: breaking down the submissive (6/4/2009 12:27:03 PM)
greetings barelynangel. I want to thank you for taking the time to explain your point of view. As you stated you are coming at this from a slaves mindset and not a submissive. As a child of a most dominant and domineering mother, her domestic slave was what I was, and was not given the choice of being a free spirit. Having to ask for permission for every little thing and walking on eggshells because there was always a beating ahead if you should disobey, is no way to thrive and excel. Thank goodness we grow up and have the ability to leave. I am not a slave, and never will be again, I am a submissive. I identify as a submissive because. I hold my freedom as the most valuable thing I own. If a man feels that he has the need of stripping me of all my emotions and traits that make me who I am, in order to enslave me, well, he is not the dominant for me. I stated my submission comes out of earned respect, and trust. I must be able to trust in his moral code and integrity. It is not because I need to be guided, or to told how to be in control of my life, I do not need to be managed in every move I make. The transfer of power should come naturally. A man is the dominant of the home and his woman is his submissive because there is the need to trust in his decisions will be best for both. I do not wish to wear the pants in my relationships, but I am capable of putting them on when needed. quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel When i was a slave (which is the only experience i have and therefore my viewpoint is from that of slave not submissive) angel HOW this happens many times is based on the individuals involved. But i would be surprised if you don't

barelynangel -> RE: breaking down the submissive (6/4/2009 12:33:31 PM)
I will admit after reading more of what people are saying -- the process of my being broke down was a process i wasn't even aware of going through and could only define and name it after the fact. I do admit that of someone says it as a THREAT lol yeah, it could be a response of ummm, well, errr HELL NO. I am the type of person who thrives on the don't tell me what you are doing just do it lol and don't give me any time to analyze it because i will talk myself out of it. Of course when anyone says anything that remotely sounds as if its a threatening thing, even if its not cool, think of all the BDSM play things people do -- if someone says it in a threatening way -- its not cool. However, if someone just does it or explains it or even says it in a compelling way -- it can be okay. Hi Candisa: i saw your reply after posting this. Yes, for some, this process is not for them. I would think on many levels for submissives needing to retain and wanting to retain their freedom at all costs, it would not be a good process. However, you may want to consider -- your Dom is not your mom. I am sure you have dealt with these issues on your own and i wish you luck. However, here is something else to consider -- if your Dom isn't doing this to you -- i.e., won't attempt to break ypu down, your automatic assumption of abuse is what is creating a filter for you, instead of allowing you to see the postive. angel

NihilusZero -> RE: breaking down the submissive (6/4/2009 12:42:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: candisa If a man feels that he has the need of stripping me of all my emotions and traits that make me who I am, in order to enslave me, well, he is not the dominant for me. I cannot speak for anyone other than myself, but my intent would not be to do it to "enslave". The purpose is being given control to whittle, sand-down and polish someone towards being something better than what they are. Obviously "better" is subjective, but so much of WIITWD is built on the sub/slave surrendering trust to the D-type that, aside from it being on the extreme pole, I see this as essentially no different than any other example of that. quote: ORIGINAL: candisa I identify as a submissive because. I hold my freedom as the most valuable thing I own.... ....I stated my submission comes out of earned respect, and trust. I must be able to trust in his moral code and integrity. It is not because I need to be guided, or to told how to be in control of my life, I do not need to be managed in every move I make. The transfer of power should come naturally. A man is the dominant of the home and his woman is his submissive because there is the need to trust in his decisions will be best for both. While I'm not trying to get into a discussion about personal interpretations of submission, I'm seeing contradictory points here. If you surrender to "trust in his decisions", you are being "told how to be in control" of your life. You are yielding your freedom to the exact proportion of trust you leave him with. I'm not sure how having freedom as one's priority can at all be reconciled with a D/s dynamic. It specifically requires one to curtail their freedom.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: breaking down the submissive (6/4/2009 1:25:10 PM)
quote: Original: candisa If a man feels that he has the need of stripping me of all my emotions and traits that make me who I am, in order to enslave me, well, he is not the dominant for me. One thing I wanted to touch on, and I know that it is the semantics of how we do what we do, and how we -explain- what we do, as well as other people's capacity to hear what one is -saying- rather than what they're re-interpreting it in their heads as being said that makes the difference in communication, but this sentence jumped out at me when reading the responses. See, to me, the point of setting disciplines for someone or shaping them through dominance/mentorship isn't about taking away their emotions or the traits that make them "who they are" -- it is about stripping away the false 'self' -- the layers of protections, masks, deceits, etc., to get -to- the person that xhe is...under the years of pressure, neglect, etc., to find the gem hidden beneath the mire. Dame Calla

OrionTheWolf -> RE: breaking down the submissive (6/4/2009 2:28:07 PM)
~FR~ I believe all walls a person builds that causes a problem in this type of relationship should be broken down. The process varies from slave to slave, as no two people are alike. Obliteration of the ego (self) is not what should be the target. Instead the sacrifice and surrender of the ego (self) to the onwer should be the target. This is not done by destroying self-esteem, as that is what all beauty stems from.

LaTigresse -> RE: breaking down the submissive (6/4/2009 2:37:18 PM)
Excellent way of describing it Orion. Thank you.

leadership527 -> RE: breaking down the submissive (6/4/2009 2:59:57 PM)
I'll second LaTigresse... Well said Orion.

MarcEsadrian -> RE: breaking down the submissive (6/4/2009 4:00:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: candisa What do you see as the benefits in mentally and physically breaking down the spirit and emotions of a submissive ~~heart~~? I have heard this many times, I don't understand it. From my view point it is abusive, a submission of fear and loss of respect. This does not make me more complacent, in fact quite the opposite, I tend to become more rebellious. When I find a dominant that compels me to submit to him, it is out of respect, and the ability to trust in his judgment. This brings out the desire in me to please him, as I am able to follow his orders because I know he will not hurt my spirit or my emotions which only brings the icing to the cake, letting him control my mind and body. Any ensuing discussion on this subject will be tangled in semantics and the moralizing of each individual. With that in mind, what is and is not abuse is a discussion that will have no end in these circles. The type of submission you describe in your opening post is more conditional than what I see in consensual slavery. I believe it's in the latter we see a far greater blurring of the lines about absolutes of right and wrong, if you buy into the notion that the two terms are not synonymous—which I do. That aside, you bring up a vital point about needing to trust and respect the one you serve. It's fair to say that once that state has been achieved, some actualize their devotion as slavery, and will undergo nearly any abuse or "breaking" out of love and devotion, to be shaped as needed or desired. With that there is productive molding, and then there is destructive use, and it behooves the Master or Mistress to know the difference. In that light, I enjoyed what Orion had to say, and would amend a little further: there is no way to obliterate the self, outside of a lobotomy. Those who entertain such ideas are fantasists. Since surrender is the only attainable goal, one inevitably treads into the realm of human psychology and the art of leadership; a study that is deep and lifelong. It is eventually obvious who takes that study seriously and who does not.

xxblushesxx -> RE: breaking down the submissive (6/4/2009 4:16:40 PM)
Without reading any other answers, I believe it is more of a fantasy type thing than reality. They love the idea of having a "made to order" slave.

lovingpet -> RE: breaking down the submissive (6/4/2009 4:34:42 PM)
I must say I am having a great mental trip with this idea that I didn't expect to have. I have my own notions of what all this is about. I think if one is saying this with the idea that it will be immediate and blatantly overt that there is no way it will ever happen with me. The moment one person tells another that they are going to break them down, the resistance has been put in place that assures that this process will NEVER happen. No one will ever break me when my mind has not determined to be pliable to them. There are a very few limited senses where this is attainable, but it is a destructive practice to the individual it is unleashed upon (Stockholm syndrome, for example). There is no sense of self or motivation left, just automatic responses based upon survival and fear. All this said, with a very special partner, I want this to happen in no uncertain terms. This desire didn't come overnight and, in all honesty, the process is likely already occuring that has brought me to want it in the first place. I see allthese things such as self, spirit, and emotions as elemental. Just because you change the consistency of them or the shape they take does not mean they do not still exist. I want that right person to take me, break me, grind me down to dust, then take those elements of me and make something exquisite of them. I have to trust the person doing this to not do with me something that is harmful to me. I have to know that what I will become at his hand will be something I wish to become and cherish him for bringing me to that place where both our dreams for me are realized. It is a shared vision, but one I need him to help make come to life. I find this beautiful. Maybe that is because I am able to accept the dichotomy that I am both whole and broken already. The life I have lived has left its damage. Those broken pieces are no less me because they are not connected to me anymore, they are still of the same elements and, in that way, I am now whole. I just want all those shards and crumbling dust to be collected along with all the rest and brought back together. I don't want to continue to be a dichotomy. lovingpet

NuevaVida -> RE: breaking down the submissive (6/4/2009 6:11:27 PM)
Interesting thread, and one which, for me personally, brought some difficulty in reading. If I'm going to take this term "breaking" or "breaking down" literally, which I do, then I will dismiss the fantasy - notions we sometimes see here as they don't apply. I think for some, the words sound cool, so they are used, but not really applicable. Like barelynangel, I can only speak of my own experiences here, having been broken and then further broken. Mind you, broken simply means that - broken, and not "obliterated" as has been mentioned in this thread. Many broken objects (or in this case, people) are repairable. I am evidence of that. Both times around I put myself in a position to be broken; the first time it was completely unknowingly, in a non D/s, non M/s relationship. The second time, I came into a slavery already broken. In fact, I came into it so broken I no longer cared about myself or what was done to me. I was relieved that someone would want to bother with me, and I gave myself over completely to that person, who had me convinced for quite some time that this was a good thing. Whether he intentionally set out to "break me" or not is unknown. Personally, I don't think it was a goal, but I think a sense of obliviousness to the bigger picture aided in bringing me there. Things were done to me which took months to recover from, in fact on more than one occasion I considered taking my life. Yes, folks, this is what "broken" is. Broken, in my world, means damaged. Not cared for. And yes, even abused, because, well, if you're using something right, you don't break it. Broken means taking something in its originally created form, and destroying it. This is different than breaking someone of a bad habit, or breaking someone of wrongful thinking, etc. This is taking an organic, original form, and changing it such that it no longer functions as it was created to. Not my ideal, and certainly not anything I will ever go back to. I had to think about this notion Marc said, of the inability to obliterate self outside a lobotomy. At first glance it was disturbing for me to read, but as I considered it further, I quite agree. Because despite all the internal shatterings I've experienced, that same childlike spirit remained in me throughout, even though buried at times, so deep it was temporarily lost. The organic self remained, and once found, dusted off, fed, and nurished, shined as it was meant to all along. So yes, one can be broken, no, I don't recommend it, and obliteration of self is not only a stupid notion but highly impractical. In my world, I'd rather break away the things that have hidden the original self, rather than the original self itself. Why break a person as opposed to leading and allowing that person to rise up and reach greatness?

DesFIP -> RE: breaking down the submissive (6/4/2009 6:39:14 PM)
When I see this "I'm going to break you into the perfect slave" what I see is someone who isn't capable of sustaining integrity from day to day. Because it's an attempt to short cut the trust process. Why would you seek to short cut or detour around earning someone's trust? Simply because you aren't able to earn it, you know you won't keep your word. I see it in the kind of guys who before you're collared accept your limit of monogamy and a month afterwards tells you that you don't get to keep that limit anymore, oh yeah and you have to get your hot girlfriend to join you in bed this weekend or you'll be punished. However I was happy when I was searching to see this on a profile. It meant I didn't have to waste time answering his email or meeting him since he didn't meet my standards.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: breaking down the submissive (6/4/2009 6:59:47 PM)
I think I may have read this topic a bit differently than some of the folks here, and I wonder, semantically, if there is a difference, to the people here, between the term "breaking" and the term "breaking down". See, to me there -is- a difference. To 'break' something is to damage it or destroy it, whether intentionally or accidentally. "Breaking down" is to -take apart-. It is an intentional process by which something is taken from a whole to the sum of its parts. Nothing is -destroyed- in this process... only separated, so that all of the pieces can be examined individually... and what has been 'broken down' can be put back together... sometimes leaving it the same as it was before the breaking-down process, and sometimes leaving it BETTER than it was before it was taken apart. Occasionally, we will 'break down' something that we don't know how to put back together, and that SUCKS, but this is where patience, patience, and -more- patience can make the difference between doing something -dumb- and getting crappy results and doing something with forethought and preparation and having something amazing and right as the result. I think we're talking about two entirely different things here, even though the words may sound -very- similar. So maybe what is important isn't just hearing a certain word and reacting to that one word as if it were the end of the world. Maybe, instead, it would be valuable to not just -dismiss- a situation, but to use a few -more- words to clarify... like "What do you -mean- when you say "breaking" or "breaking down"? How and why would you want to -do- that?... and then -listen-... weigh what is actually -said- instead of presuming that we know what people mean when they use certain words or phrases. Dame Calla (a little frustrated, I think)

DesFIP -> RE: breaking down the submissive (6/4/2009 7:05:54 PM)
Interesting point Calla but personally I hold a bias against someone who is going to break me apart and rebuild me minus things he doesn't like. I much prefer someone who would help me grow into a better me. Sort of the difference between pruning a bush back severely and training it to grow in a different shape. I don't want to be a bonsai, but I have no problem being a climbing rose on a trellis instead of flopping on the ground all over the garden and not blooming to full potential.

NuevaVida -> RE: breaking down the submissive (6/4/2009 7:59:08 PM)
I don't know, Calla. I "break down" or "break apart" problems, not people, or spirits. I might want to break a problem apart, or even break it away from a person, but I don't believe people are meant to be broken down. Learned about, analyzed, understood, yes, but not broken down or broken apart. As for my situation, have been broken, broken down, and broken apart, it doesn't even enter my realm of thinking to ask what someone means by it - being human, my mind goes immediately to what its profound effect was on me. What I considered a dismissed fantasy notion is the idea I sometimes see discussed about breaking slaves down to build them into what the master wants, which has nothing to do with problem resolution or building upon who the slave already is, as a human spirit.

antipode -> RE: breaking down the submissive (6/4/2009 8:31:16 PM)
quote: why you would wish to use this technique I always do that with people who have no profile.

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