can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT?

can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (Full Version)

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GYPZYQUEEN -> can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (6/4/2009 10:02:14 AM)
A sub that had been with me in the fall of 2008 was transfered several provinces away..and is now being transfered back..and wishs to serve again...we kept in touch..but I am hesitant to reconnect...yet enjoy many aspects of his service. IN the Fall we were just getting to know each other and he had been over a few times..he is obediant..acts without hesitation..does exactly as told..follows protocol BUT he rarley speaks..he has no verbals other than saying "If it please Mistress" or "If Mistress wants"..or "does Mistress wish to use me..?" when he writes and has been in town I had spoken to his previous Mistress of 7 years who had moved an she claimed him to be the best sub she ever had.. I am wondering if 7 years of being trained to never speak or look at you can be undone and he can re-trained? He understands I want him to talk and when I want him to look at me. I have engaged him in conversation but it is excrutiating to get any response.I tried word games..association games and question games that were short answers to get him to talk about.. self.. ask me questions AT one point he got into it and got going asking things and I could see an esteem boost. I value his dedication..loyalty..and how listens but it as if I have a robot If I thought I COULD RE-TRAIN I would take him back to service again. But I am not sure. Could 7 years of training as a complete of object of use WITH NO SPIRIT..be undone to mould him for me? Is there something I could do to re ignite his inner flame? HE wants to please very much..but if pleasing means acting as if.. then I do not want that..I want this interaction to come from the heart for me. I am wondering if his 7 years was actaully abuse...there is indication of this IN his body that show mistreatment and ill preparation for anal play for example( he has been damaged) He also cannot seem to accept aftercare very well. any thoughts appreciated... GQ

LadyHibiscus -> RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (6/4/2009 10:38:17 AM)
This is a tough one, GQ. Based on your other posts, I think you have the HEART to help this man, but I think it will be a very long and hard road. I think that I would take him out to vanilla things, like going to the grocery store, or for coffee, or for a walk, to help him relax and get used to you. He can practice walking NEXT to you, for instance--I suspect that will be an issue. The outside world has lots of conversation starters, what with plants and birds and cars, so bit by bit you could expand into more than yes/no questions. Good luck!

onlyfreelycaged -> RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (6/4/2009 10:43:49 AM)
it is possible, I think, but takes a whole lot of work. I can only talk about my experiences starting with being painfully shy... and now I'm almost social... You could start by gently talking with him, little things like asking about the weather, and how things went in his day. Then branch out into more complex and harder things.. You could try playing a board game or cards while talking.. just to get him used to the idea of doing it.. but, the most important thing is to cultivate a place where he fells safe.

Lockit -> RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (6/4/2009 10:45:16 AM)
I don't think that people are throw away's and no one is hopeless, but I do think that it takes a lot of work to help someone who has been this wounded by this type of thing. Mainly because originally before the abuse something wasn't within them that would make them say... this is abuse and it is wrong, I am not an 'it' and am worth more. I noticed in a couple situations in getting to know two I was speaking with and started some mild d/s with, once the dynamic's started they stopped talking. They were a different person all of a sudden. They had talked and joked and as soon as I started to expect them to address me or account to me, they stopped talking like they had. There seemed to be a different man in front of me and trying to get them to speak before I asked a question was like pulling teeth. I am still not sure what causes this, but some said on the thread I started, that some men seem to feel this is what is expected. I don't know where some get this idea or what is happening, but it seems there are dominant's that expect this and you are seeing the results of it. I can't imagine someone healthy emotionally accepting this type of treatment for long. I would hope that the right people could help someone like this, but I do know I am not one who could. I have seen miracles in changes with some, but it took a group of people supporting, uplifting and surrounding the person in love to bring it about. There was one woman that all the professionals had givin up on and they all said she would be in a facility the rest of her life. The ladies I worked with a great deal decided to take her on. 24/7 there was someone with the woman, holding her, stroking her head, telling her she was beautiful and worthwhile and anything they could to reach her. One would be with her for many hours and then someone would replace her and another woman would come in and do the same things. Within a month I think she was responding and coming out and talking and within a short time after she was looking for work and starting a life. It can be done, I have seen it, but I sure as hell don't have what it takes to do all that, especially on my own. Even when I was better, I took on some situations that were tough, but wouldn't have to time to give so much. Maybe with a lot of work, love, attention and such, this guy could be helped, but it is going to be a real work out that could bring out some pretty raw emotions that might be better suited to a professional or team work.

MsFlutter -> RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (6/4/2009 10:50:58 AM)
At the risk of sounding a bit existential, I'm left with the impression that his having articulated a desire to return could very well be his version of 'speaking'. Clearly his radar works - he must have felt safe with you and found it rewarding to serve you. Accepting him again sounds like it may put you in the 'Mrs Fixit' role. That's a lot to take on. If it's any consolation, there are a number of people on this board who have flatly stated that they prefer to avoid the aftercare part. In a nutshell, they want to be left alone with their blankie and their ice cream - they will check back in later !

OttersSwim -> RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (6/4/2009 11:01:48 AM)
While love can be infinite, time and energy are not. As others have expertly said, you have to decide whether you have the time and energy to put into this person. If you decide that you do, something that might help is to couch your assistance to him as a clearly stated requirement of his service. After all, if he is going to serve -you-, you want him to be and behave as you see fit. Make that part of your dynamic, how you desire him to be, and thus his positive movement in this direction is part of his submission. Thereby it becomes something that you and he celebrate together...and it gives you a method of evaluation and exit if he proves unable to step up.

YourhandMyAss -> RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (6/4/2009 11:03:57 AM)
You might be able to but he HIMSELF has to have something in him that wants to over come this, and have the ability in himself to do it. Other wise no you can't. quote: ORIGINAL: GYPZYQUEEN I am wondering if 7 years of being trained to never speak or look at you can be undone and he can re-trained? He understands I want him to talk and when I want him to look at me. I have engaged him in conversation but it is excrutiating to get any response.I tried word games..association games and question games that were short answers to get him to talk about.. self.. ask me questions AT one point he got into it and got going asking things and I could see an esteem boost. I value his dedication..loyalty..and how listens but it as if I have a robot If I thought I COULD RE-TRAIN I would take him back to service again. But I am not sure. Could 7 years of training as a complete of object of use WITH NO SPIRIT..be undone to mould him for me? Is there something I could do to re ignite his inner flame? HE wants to please very much..but if pleasing means acting as if.. then I do not want that..I want this interaction to come from the heart for me. I am wondering if his 7 years was actaully abuse...there is indication of this IN his body that show mistreatment and ill preparation for anal play for example( he has been damaged) He also cannot seem to accept aftercare very well. any thoughts appreciated... GQ

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (6/4/2009 11:14:16 AM)
One question that I have to ask is whether this man was -ever- a very social, outgoing, or talkative person. While some of what has happened seems very much to be a response to a very tightly controlled situation, if he wasn't much of a talker to start with, turning him around may be almost as traumatic for him as giving up what little speaking he was accustomed to may have been -- moreso, in fact, in that he's probably been conditioned to expecting that his words will bring harsh judgment, and that can make even the most outspoken person hesitate if the individual doing the judging is important to hir. I would say play it by ear. Get some assistance from a neutral, scene-friendly therapist in the beginning -- it may be easier for him to open up in a neutral environment where he isn't feeling pressured to have the other person's approval. In fact, if he tends to be heavily oriented towards female domination, I'd even go so far as to request a -male- therapist, so that the tendency to yield to a woman or be concerned with her opinion of his thoughts doesn't inhibit his progress. The rest of the process will just be -slow-. At first, he may have to do the 'fake it till you make it' thing -- he may actually need to talk to you and look at you without wanting to, and with it feeling a bit uncomfortable for a while, because only the experience of your encouraging him will reassure him that, in this situation, it is OK for him to do these things. I think you have the spirit and grace to be able to heal him -- and it seems to me that you know to remember to find -him- underneath there, and not an idealized version of what you'd prefer he be, so I think that, if this is something you both want, it can work... but it will probably -be- work, and a lot of it. Dame Calla

RedMagic1 -> RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (6/4/2009 11:49:14 AM)
Gypzyqueen, it seems very important to separate out "damage" from "does things very differently from the way I want." For example, I've damaged a woman through incorrect anal play -- temporarily, not as badly as the guy you mention seems to have been hurt -- but I don't think I've ever damaged her mentally or emotionally. Also, if you project to him that he is somehow "broken" -- and broken because of his longtime Mistress's negligence -- he is likely to resist attempts to change him. He undoubtedly feels great loyalty to his former Mistress, and I doubt he will respond well to a program of you "fixing her blunders." I would suggest that you phrase these things -- both to him and within your own mind -- as compatibility issues, not issues of mental health or harm. "You want to serve me? I like you. But... what I desire in a servant is very different from what she desired. I'm not saying she was wrong. I am saying I am very different. You will have to do your best to change, because I am me, not her. You have to decide you would be serving me, not your memory of her. That means you will have to talk and be forthcoming."

Lashra -> RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (6/4/2009 11:54:24 AM)
GQ this is going to be a roller coaster ride if you go ahead with this. Frankly I would do it just because to see someone so torn down hurts ME inside. It sounds to me that he has been broken down to feel that he is not human anymore but only a "thing". It will be a long, tough rode to build back up his self esteem and make him see that he is a human being deserving of respect and dignity. You have to make him see that as a "robot" he has no appeal and is displeasing to you, but as a living thriving human being he is a thrill and a joy as a submissive. Work with him in small steps, reward him when he does well, he will have set backs and you will have to be patient and willing to keep working with him. Good luck, ~Lashra

SirMIkeSD -> RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (6/4/2009 1:02:30 PM)
Help him, what's wrong with him? This is the way he was trained and it may work for him. To me he sounds way more slave then sub and he would be a great slave for someone maybe just not you. Mike

FullfigRIMAAM1 -> RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (6/4/2009 3:22:04 PM)
quote: I am wondering if 7 years of being trained to never speak or look at you can be undone and he can re-trained? Yes I believe training can be undone, or rather done to your specifications, when the gentleman has an open mind, undestands you are not his other domina, and wants to do everything possible to please you. The process may be very complicated, but I am fairly patient when someone has a positive attitude, the desire, and enthusiasm I like to see in anyone near me. M

Scotty306134 -> RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (6/4/2009 5:04:08 PM)
I would recommend showing Him Your post. It could be the basis for an enlightning talk. If it doesn't bring about a behavior change then things probably wouldn't work out. Scotty

SthrnCom4t -> RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (6/4/2009 7:09:35 PM)
My experience with speech and eye contact restrictions equated with mental bondage. Apparently, this is the head space where he feels safest. I guess I would ask why this is? Is it because of his desire to please you (former training) or his fear of 'exposure'. Is it an inability to be that 'open' and experience connection? Does he equate banter with disrespect OR lack of power exchange? Is this the only type of dynamic he knows....or that he wants with you? GQ, I haven't read your profile, so I don't know if you are sadistic, but if being out of robot-mode were to make him uncomfortable (and you are a sadista) you might explain to him that you realize it makes him uncomfortable, but as part of being in service, this is something he's going to have to work on. (training? re-training? evolution? therapy? you pick) Did you see each other on a limited basis? Was the relationship completely based in the power-exchange dynamic? It would be interesting to see how he interacts with others. Does he talk, joke, participate? Have you been out to the movies, dinner, music in the park with mutual friends? Robots do not appeal to me either. I feed off the mental stimulation and creativity of service. I absolutely see service as an ACTIVE activity, not a passive one. I like to be chauferred. (?sp) As Otter suggested, assignments where he has to come up with the method of service....say, creating and performing a bathing ritual, where he first has to please you by telling you about a current event, a joke, reading/writing you a story, etc. Another idea would be to have him keep a journal and share his thoughts with you via the written word? Not being in your presence might make it easier for him to share information more freely. You could explain to him that keeping part of himself from you is unacceptable. It sounds like you are seeking the type of connection that can transition/float and exist between several layers of dynamics. It's very possible he doesn't know how to do this. (However, it doesn't mean he can't learn---he just has to be willing.) As someone else mentioned, it might simply be a matter of compatibility of needs and desires. A serious conversation whether in person or via email (if written is easier for him) is probably in order, if you haven't done it already. Good luck,

MaamJay -> RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (6/4/2009 8:35:33 PM)
GQ you come across as a lady of great heart, but as others have said, only you know if you have the time, energy and patience to attempt this ... and he has to WANT this with every fibre of his being too and be willing for things to feel "foreign" to him as he gives new processes a go. I also entirely agree with RedMagic, that if you approach this from the POV that his former Mistress was "wrong" or abusive, it will be met with resistance. Stick to "different" ... she liked x, I like y. If you really want to serve me you will be attempting to do y. Show that you will be tolerant of lapses at first, understanding it takes time to break an old habit and consolidate a new one, but that you do want to see evidence of trying to install the new habit. That includes immediate compliance once reminded. Rather than tackling the verbals immediately (put up with that for the time being), perhaps try tackling one of the other habits that's easier to obey (eg eyes up rather than down) and be ready to remind, remind, remind! Whether it's saying "Eyes up!" or "Look at Me" or making a gesture towards your eyes to remind him ... thank him when he responds to your reminder and notice it and praise lavishly when he does it without being reminded. Keep a note of how many reminders he's needed each day, hopefully as that number drops ... you've tangible signs of progress for which praise can be given. That might give him the heart to tackle what is likely to be more difficult, the verbals. Also he would have been with you longer then so might feel more able to tackle that once you and he have some shared "history" and experiences. i know from my own sub experience that breaking an unconscious habit (in my case it was rocking or moving a lot when speaking with people) was really difficult to do and Master had to remind me a LOT at first. He did so verbally, and then reduced that to a signal and finally to a warning look. Another technique that was effective was to imitate the behaviour so i could see how annoying it was! However, the behaviour was cut down a lot in the first month, had almost vanished by 6 months, and only occasionally recurs when i am stressed now (5 years later!). That might give you and he a sort of yardstick of what to expect. I wish you and he all the very very best! Maam Jay aka violet[A]

Calandra -> RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (6/5/2009 2:13:57 AM)
I once had a painfully shy slave. This might seem over simplified, but I began by expecting him to read the newspaper EVERY DAY and to be prepared to discuss it with me later. It helped him to be informed, and to also form thoughts and opinions on current events. Be careful to listen as he talks though, you'll notice that he will start by giving a simple "report" at first, but as time goes by, he will insert things he thinks and feels into the conversation and THAT needs to be explored gently. It may also help for you to give him research assignments, or books to read that might stimulate him to open up more and more.

GYPZYQUEEN -> RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (6/5/2009 2:39:59 AM)
ty do much for all the great posts thus far..[&:] .b will be here the end of June and I have time to plan and think..in the interim I have explained that I posted and that I really enjoy it when we talk and share info etc.. and that I am interested in what he has to say..and I NEED it to be part of our dynamic.. I also have been engaging in the question "game" where we ask each other 3 questions then 3.more....he is responding to this.. Many things have been brought up in the posts I never thought of such as "he may be more of a slave then a sub"..how to discuss former training without ditsing the Mistress..and presenting what I wish..what is abuse?..was he social anyway?.. how much time and energy do I really have? and more.. ty so much all.. GQ

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (6/5/2009 9:15:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Calandra I once had a painfully shy slave. This might seem over simplified, but I began by expecting him to read the newspaper EVERY DAY and to be prepared to discuss it with me later. It helped him to be informed, and to also form thoughts and opinions on current events. Be careful to listen as he talks though, you'll notice that he will start by giving a simple "report" at first, but as time goes by, he will insert things he thinks and feels into the conversation and THAT needs to be explored gently. It may also help for you to give him research assignments, or books to read that might stimulate him to open up more and more. Just as an addendum, I wanted to comment on this post. I've had a couple of servants over the years who were -clearly- intelligent, dedicated individuals, but who were not widely read nor were they particularly well educated. Because of the kind of person I am, having a frame of reference from which to understand some of the things I throw out there is -vital-, so I did much the same thing as Callandra describes. I gave reading assignments and held discussion-based "quizzes". Active participation, and expression of opinions on concepts raised in the reading won rewards. "Lazy" responses or failure to read the work at all brought tightened discipline and loss of privileges. It worked out very well, and one of the men in question actually went on to become a Toastmaster, and I am very proud of him to this day. The opportunity to explore new ideas is something that a lot of people miss out on in the course of their lives, and I've found it to be very helpful in bringing shy servants out of their shells -- which, incidentally, has proven to improve their quality of service and versatility, sort of as an ancillary benefit. Dame Calla

ruthiexxxx -> RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (6/5/2009 10:16:53 AM)
it does seem to be a case of building up his self-esteem and this, together with better communication from him, can become training objectives which Y/you discuss together....and there are some great self-help books (like Wayne Dyer's "Your Erroneous Zones" and "Pulling Your Own Strings" which You can task him to read and discuss with you.

MaamJay -> RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? (6/5/2009 6:17:00 PM)
Just want to chime in that I thoroughly support Calandra and Calla's method for tackling the difficulties of verbal communication, it has a number of positive benefits. Do the same thing with TV shows, watch the news or a documentary together, then turn off the TV and discuss it. However, I still think that tackling something else that can be instantly obeyed without the pressure to think and form words would be a better "starter" to train obedience to YOU and to give him a platform of success on which to build. All the best GQ and please let us know how it goes! Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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