On the gift of submission (Full Version)

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sweetsub0 -> On the gift of submission (8/19/2004 10:52:15 PM)

This girl would like to know if the Tops agree with this teaching or no, and if no please explain why? It would be of great help for the girl's growth.



The way the gift thingy was explained to this girl by her training Master was this: No one at anytime has to submit to anyone over anything, ever, excepting save God. Authority is derived from submission. The Catholics say the Pope is infalable. Is he really infalable? No. He can and probably does make mistakes. But because the body of the Church says that they will accept any decission or statement he makes and say that it is not wrong, he becomes infalable. If the body suddenly decided he was a no-good-nick, not only would he suddenly be falable, he would be in charge of nothing. (which has happened in history once that i know of).

As a submissive i can submit to anyone, anytime, anywhere, be it a Dom, a vanilla or the guy in the street trying to give me directions and finnally says in frustration, "Look, just follow me and I'll get you there."
At this point i have a choice. This girl can submit and follow him to my destination or to my distruction, or i can find someone else who gives better directions. If i choose to find someone else the guy goes about on his marry way unencumbered by the authority he saught. His only offered gift to me being his willingness to lead me to destination or distuction and only he knew which at the time.

The gift of submission, the act of submitting is a thing and does not change no matter what. It can be given and taken away at anytime. However since authority or Domination if you will is derived only from submission, it in itself is not a real thing, it is a concept until brought to fruitation by submission.

Now please, this is not a religious trist, this one says God because she is a believer, if you are not, fine and dandy on you, you don't try to burn me for being and i won't try to burn you for not....lol




MrThorns -> RE: On the gift of submission (8/19/2004 11:38:24 PM)

I disagree partially with the gift philosophy..primarily because if it is a gift...can you take it back?

I hear about this gift of submission in so many places, but how many times can you give the same gift to someone? I can think of 9 submissives by name from both r/t and o/l who have offered the gift of their submission to their One....then offered it to a different One...and so on...and so on. Isn't that like passing along the fruitcake you got from Aunt Thelma 2 years ago? You don't hear much about dominance being a gift....and in my mind, its not. Its an arrangement...an understanding. I think a lot about BDSM has been over-romanticized. What ever happened to dating? When you were out dating in the nilla world... was the person you met and felt you had a good connection with...and began seeing on a semi-regular basis...were they your One? Did you offer them the gift of your companionship?

I see D/s simply as an arrangement between consenting adults. There is a very powerful dynamic there, as we deal with very powerful emotions, sensations, etc. There are rituals that some of us practice in our relationships that are very important to us...there are symbols...protocols...etc etc. But for me, it still boils down to two (or more) adults negotiating power roles in a relationship.

Hopefully I stayed on track...its getting late...

~Thorns




SherriA -> RE: On the gift of submission (8/20/2004 2:12:31 AM)

Cut and pasted from another thread where this same question was posed:

quote:



ORIGINAL: sweetsub0
The gift of submission, the act of giving over submission, is a thing and it does not change no matter what.


I don't see how that makes it a gift, personally. However, I do agree that submission is *active*, at least for me. There's nothing passive about it. Still doesn't make it a gift though. *shrug*

quote:



However since authority or Domination if you will is derived only from submission, it in itself is not a real thing, it is a concept until brought to fruitation by submission.


But the same can be said for submission. How can someone submit if there's nothing to submit to? The dominant partner in the exchange can pull up stakes and stop asserting the control s/he is given at any point too. And where does that leave the person on the bottom? Certainly not submitting if there's nothing to submit *to*.

It's circular logic, as far as I can tell. D/s is a symbiotic relationship that requires BOTH parts in order to work. And that *still* doesn't make either piece of the puzzle a "gift".

quote:



As always if this girl is wrong or you beleive she was taught wrong, please correct.


I don't think that you're necessarily wrong, or that you've been taught incorrectly. I simply disagree with what you've been taught and the conclusions you appear to have drawn. They don't fit into my chosen paradigm. If they work for you, then great.




WayHome -> RE: On the gift of submission (8/20/2004 3:44:34 AM)

I believe submission can be a gift, but not necessarily.

I believe domination can be a gift, but not necessarily.

Either is a gift if it requires bravery, effort, strength, and/or is pleasing. Neither is a gift if it comes from cowardice, weakness, or neediness.

When my love exhibits trust and acceptance when her first instinct was fear or anger, that is her gift.

When I take command of her and make the difficult choice when it means risking being wrong and when she has not the strength to give me that command on her own, that is my gift.

Some days a D/s relationship flows naturally and effortlessly, other days it requires strength and risk.


Leto




kiki blue -> RE: On the gift of submission (8/20/2004 8:05:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetsub0

The way the gift thingy was explained to this girl by her training Master was this: No one at anytime has to submit to anyone over anything, ever, excepting save God.


Only if you believe in God, of course.

If I allow another to have authority over me, I don't necessarily see that as submission. I play by others rules all the time, we all do. When we go to work, drive, or just live in general, we're usually playing by the rules other people made up.

I don't gift someone else with my submission any more than I gift them with my presence.




ScorpioMaster -> RE: On the gift of submission (8/20/2004 9:50:49 AM)

sweetsub Every day we must submit to some one either to the authorities, your parents, your husband if you have one, or to your boss. If you are in a service industry you must submit to the customers you are providing a service to. Look at this one way the gift you give to others is to do it uncondincenly like in love. When you open a door to an elderly or to a total stranger you are submitting an act of kindness.




MrThorns -> RE: On the gift of submission (8/20/2004 9:57:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScorpioMaster

sweetsub Every day we must submit to some one either to the authorities, your parents, your husband if you have one, or to your boss. If you are in a service industry you must submit to the customers you are providing a service to. Look at this one way the gift you give to others is to do it uncondincenly like in love. When you open a door to an elderly or to a total stranger you are submitting an act of kindness.


I think there's a big difference between submitting...and being compliant. I don't want my slave to simply comply. I dont need a doormat... I want her to find joy in her service...in her submission to me. I will comply with the laws of my state and the laws of my country. I will assist various customers with their needs as that may be my job. Do I submit to their will? Not hardly. I comply with the requirements of my job. Maybe I'm just arguing semantics.. but I think theres a big difference between the submission of a person to the will of another...and compliance.

~Thorns




happypervert -> RE: On the gift of submission (8/20/2004 11:05:36 AM)

I consider the slogan "submission is a gift" to be manipulative and dishonest.

I think that submitting is done because it is it's own reward; calling it a gift distorts the motive from the personal satisfaction it provides to making it appear like it is done solely for the satisfaction of another. It's like saying you ate the last piece of cake so someone else wouldn't eat it and gain weight. Thanks -- that's so nice of you!

Furthermore, calling it a gift is another way of saying "I'm a gift and so special that you should treat me like a treasure." Nothing wrong thinking you're wonderful or wanting to be treated well and having that type of relationship. But I think that should be in the relationship anyway without having to fish for compliments and manipulate it with this so called "gift".

In other words, whenever I hear this notion I just go "yuck!"




pixieunleashed -> RE: On the gift of submission (8/20/2004 5:36:20 PM)

quote:

I consider the slogan "submission is a gift" to be manipulative and dishonest.


Very nice work with the identification. Thank you very much for helping me figure out why that statement always put a bad taste in my mouth.

pixie




NoCalOwner -> RE: On the gift of submission (8/20/2004 7:50:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

I consider the slogan "submission is a gift" to be manipulative and dishonest.

I think that submitting is done because it is it's own reward; calling it a gift distorts the motive from the personal satisfaction it provides to making it appear like it is done solely for the satisfaction of another. It's like saying you ate the last piece of cake so someone else wouldn't eat it and gain weight. Thanks -- that's so nice of you!


Furthermore, calling it a gift is another way of saying "I'm a gift and so special that you should treat me like a treasure." Nothing wrong thinking you're wonderful or wanting to be treated well and having that type of relationship. But I think that should be in the relationship anyway without having to fish for compliments and manipulate it with this so called "gift".

In other words, whenever I hear this notion I just go "yuck!"


So I guess this means that domination can't be a gift either? That idea would be manipulative yuck?

Personally, I think that they're both a gift. I treasure my slave's submission, but I would NOT be willing to accept submission from most people, any more than a prudent submissive would agree to TPE with just anybody. Being a Dom/me can be a hell of a lot of work at times, and I consider it a lifetime commitment.

Power exchange, gift exchange, what's the difference?




sweetsub0 -> RE: On the gift of submission (8/20/2004 8:09:46 PM)

WOW!! So many opinions and all are almost the same...it takes two to tango! Thats is what this girl believes anyway. Who is there to spank me if i have withdrawn my submision from my Dom? And who does He get to gift with His wisdom?

This is as this girl thought so many moons ago when she was taught it. But one does not question when one is a newbie. This one has always gone about her marry way with out her presious GIFT. What a great place this is....[:D]




happypervert -> RE: On the gift of submission (8/21/2004 6:23:21 PM)

First, thanks pixie for your nice words. Nice to see someone else shares similar "tastes".

quote:

So I guess this means that domination can't be a gift either? <snip> I treasure my slave's submission


I think it's nice for you to consider your slave's submission to be a gift from her; however my comments weren't directed to this case. I was thinking of the slave or dominant claiming their part in the dynamic is a gift to the other. Just my opinion, because there's no way I could consider dominating a partner to be a "gift" -- I think that would take an ego so large that is beyond my imagination.




NoCalOwner -> RE: On the gift of submission (8/22/2004 2:06:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert
Just my opinion, because there's no way I could consider dominating a partner to be a "gift" -- I think that would take an ego so large that is beyond my imagination.


Well, let's see... how about if you buy her a nice house, car, and pay all of her bills for 8+ years so that she never has to work, and gets through college. I won't belabor the point, but I see no reason to retract my statement.




Sylverdawn -> RE: On the gift of submission (8/22/2004 3:14:51 AM)

submission as a gift.. its one of those things that makes me grit my teeth...

A gift is something that is given with no expectation of return.. submission is given with expectations.. You dont give a gift to get a gift.. but you submit in order to feed your need and in return to be Dominanted in which ever way floats your boat.

In every relationship there are expectations.. most especially a S&M one. Gifting someone with something is a selfless act ... D/s is all about the self.. from either side of the spanking bench its all about the self.. meeting your individual needs even if that is through serving another.




topcat -> RE: On the gift of submission (8/22/2004 7:32:57 AM)

quote:

Just my opinion, because there's no way I could consider dominating a partner to be a "gift" -- I think that would take an ego so large that is beyond my imagination.


M. Pervert-

I wouldn't call it a gift, but my ego is pretty big. Submission is, in my eyes, my just due for the work I am doing in invoking it in her, For me mastery isn't just about me getting my way- it's making her want my way, it's finding the hidden buttons and pushing them at the right moment, noting some passing comment, and weeks later being able to do exactly what she never realised she wanted.

Stay warm,
Lawrence




jillwfsub4blkdom -> RE: On the gift of submission (8/22/2004 8:06:09 AM)

i want to thank all of You for sharing Your opinions. Has given me a totally different perspective on this issue.




NoCalOwner -> RE: On the gift of submission (8/22/2004 2:46:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

submission as a gift.. its one of those things that makes me grit my teeth...

A gift is something that is given with no expectation of return.. submission is given with expectations.. You dont give a gift to get a gift...


From Webster's:
1. Anything given; anything voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation; a present; an offering.
2. The act, right, or power of giving or bestowing; as, the office is in the gift of the President.
3. A bribe; anything given to corrupt.
4. Some quality or endowment given to man by God; a pre["e]minent and special talent or aptitude; power; faculty; as, the gift of wit; a gift for speaking.
5. (Law) A voluntary transfer of real or personal property, without any consideration. It can be perfected only by deed, or in case of personal property, by an actual delivery of possession. --Bouvier. Burrill.
Syn: Present; donation; grant; largess; benefaction; boon; bounty; gratuity; endowment; talent; faculty.

Now, realistically speaking, there is almost nothing in human society which is given without expectations. One of my slave's relatives was having problems with debt once, and my slave was pretty worried about it, so I gave that relative $10,000. Did I have expectations? Of course I did. I expected a "thank you," and that, in the future, there would be at least some small gratitude happening, even if it was never expressed in any tangible way. Any time that you give someone a present, especially a large one, there will be expectations -- that they will appreciate the gift or at least the gesture, that they won't waste or abuse the gift, etc. A gift to charity is still considered a gift, even though I expect a tax writeoff as a direct result. Even if I make an anonymous donation to a charity, I have definite expectations about what they will do with the money. When I'm having company over who have given me something, even if I didn't care much for the item, I may well dig it up and use it while they are visiting. I can think of almost no circumstances in which the giving of anything is truly without expectations.

Most of the same considerations which apply to other human relationships also apply to D/s relationships. That $10,000 I gave away was a gift, both in the legal and "common use" sense. There WERE expectations, but they were primarily intangible. I may have given the gift because I appreciated my slave's dedication and loyalty, or I may have done it merely because I wanted her to be happy, but I'll be damned if it was just some sort of payment for services rendered.

In a way, I do agree that neither submission or domination can be a gift, because neither can exist in a vaccuum. Neither can be given without receiving the other. Whether or not that comprises compensation, and disqualifies it as a gift, all depends on the feelings of the parties concerned.

After reaching directoral level in my career, I decided that being management was too much bother to be worth it, and I have routinely declined promotions to management for over a decade. I do not enjoy all aspects of domination, so my domination cannot be bought. My slave wished to submit to me, to sacrifice every bit of her freedom, for as long as we are both alive. Despite my feelings that domination can be a real headache at times, I accepted her submission, in large part because I wanted her to be happy. Some think that because I am her owner, everything which happens in the relationship must be all about ME, that her existence is only for my selfish enjoyment, and that I should never worry about what she's getting out of things. In my opinion, that would make me the irresponsible owner of a doormat, or of a slave who wouldn't be happy for very long. And how dominant would I be if I could not decide about very basic aspects of our relationship, regardless of stereotypes? Or am I being selfish by my refusal to take a more selfish attitude towards things?

It all comes back to the arguments about who is really in charge, the Dom/me or the submissive. If domination is not the performance of a valuable service, why do people pay to be dominated? In 1996, Michael Eisner was paid $12,764 an hour for dominating the Disney Corporation. Obviously somebody considered it to be work, and not something which Eisner would be lucky to do for free, simply because he got off on doing it.

I know my slave to be very selfless, so I can only assume that her motivation in submitting to me qualified her submission as a gift. Knowing that she doesn't have a selfish bone in her body, I accepted ownership with the intention of ordering her to do things which she would enjoy, but which she would never allow herself unless ordered. I do not believe that either of us entered this relationship selfishly, or that we have maintained it selfishly. I think that either side of it could reasonably be considered a gift. I realize that there are submissives out there who have completely abused the "gift" concept, and I can understand the resentment of Dom/mes who have been subjected to such games. But I don't think that regrettable abuses of D/s philosophy by some individuals mean that all D/s relationships are based on want and greed.

Like they say, it's the thought that counts.




Sundew02 -> RE: On the gift of submission (8/22/2004 4:01:05 PM)

Taking a slightly different view of the word "gift". As always the word can be interpreted several different ways. Yes, I saw the definition for Websters, thank you for the information. But as we are not perfect and do on occassion use creative license when using words it doesn't fill every use of the word. Yes, of course there are a number of overworked phrases that are in profiles, conversations etc. I am not saying that "the gift of...." Is a particular favorite of mine, but then it doesn't ticked me off either. It just is. As to expecting nothing in return from a gift, that is not generally true. Being human, we all expect something, tanglible or not. So the definition itself is not exactly a good one (not saying I am more precise than Websters). For me the definition of a gift is something freely given, period. The gift of a smile, laughter, or more tangible, shelter, food. Winking at Thorns, even Aunt whoevers fruitcake that tastes like cardboard, when past on as a gift is STILL a gift. The fact that you didn't eat it doesn't alter that it was freely given. Word usage is such a personal choice. The gift of friendship, no matter how long it lasts, that someone gives to me is something I greatly appreciate. Looking up, mmm looks like I gave way more than my 2 cents worth, more like a dollar. Warm smile,Sundew




robyn -> RE: On the gift of submission (8/23/2004 6:39:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns


I hear about this gift of submission in so many places, but how many times can you give the same gift to someone? I can think of 9 submissives by name from both r/t and o/l who have offered the gift of their submission to their One....then offered it to a different One...and so on...and so on. Isn't that like passing along the fruitcake you got from Aunt Thelma 2 years ago? You don't hear much about dominance being a gift....and in my mind, its not. Its an arrangement...an understanding. I think a lot about BDSM has been over-romanticized. What ever happened to dating? When you were out dating in the nilla world... was the person you met and felt you had a good connection with...and began seeing on a semi-regular basis...were they your One? Did you offer them the gift of your companionship?

Damn, Thorns, i like that. im going to write it down.

i agree that submission is not a gift. it describes a way i like to behave...it isnt something im giving as a special treat.

-robyn




newflowers -> RE: On the gift of submission (8/23/2004 11:40:30 AM)

quote:

D/s is a symbiotic relationship that requires BOTH parts in order to work. And that *still* doesn't make either piece of the puzzle a "gift".




Absolutely - symbiosis, the intimate association of two dissimilar organisms living in a mutually beneficial relationship.

Another thread discusses the *joy* of attending munches and having gone to a couple of them, I can see where this saying may have originated. Though that being the case, I would expect to hear dominants saying the same thing. I shudder at the very thought of attending munches.

If one considers "gift" as an innate quailty, an inherent part of a person's personality, then "gift" is a word that would fit. It would then also apply to dominance - which I think it does - and so you have two dissimilar but complementary people whose innate qualities make a compatible whole. A blending of "gifts" - special abilities and traits - that can, with time, trust, commitment, and effort, blend into a balanced manner of relatedness that satisfies the needs and desires of each partner.

I consider neither dominance nor submission to be a "gift" as in a present with wrappings, but rather both to be a part of the person, an inherent aspect of individuals that, when found in complement, gives each a way of relating that most suits. As some people have a gift for art or music, as dominants and submissives (by whatever title you use), we have a gift for a particular type of relating.

newflowers




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