Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (Full Version)

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OrionTheWolf -> Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (6/6/2009 11:30:35 AM)

" The partisan politics on each side are detrimental to America. As the next generation, we have the duty and the responsibility to come together when the good of the country is at stake as we did in the days following Sept. 11: making sacrifices when necessary. "

http://www.dailycardinal.com/article/20631

" Well, sure, okay. I agree that the pure partisan nature of most current political debate is detrimental to our country. It’s the Crossfire problem — advancing patently bogus arguments and spinning facts to the benefit of one’s team — and it’s hurting America. It’s a bad state of affairs when you can predict exactly what any given talking head is going to say, before they open their mouth. Republicans good, Democrats bad. Democrats good, Republicans bad. It’s not debate; it’s just empty and off-putting rhetoric. "

http://www.badgerblues.org/2005/11/27/althouse-partisan-politics-and-bush-lied/

"We retrieve the virtue of statesmanship from conservative ideological misapporpriations and argue that the excessively partisan nature of American politics is having a detrimental effect on the capacity of our political leaders to become statesmen. "
 
http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/2/6/6/2/7/p266276_index.html


Me:     Partisan politics create distractions and side issues that detract from some of the more major issues. This is not a football game, or a chess match, and those that do such things hurt this country more than help. Yes they are entitled to their opinions, and that right is guaranteed, but they must also share the responsibility of their actions.


" What these stories share is a simple and clear narrative that captures the public imagination by tapping into some larger fear or existing perception — “a proxy for a bigger concern,” in the words of Ed Gillespie, former counselor to Mr. Bush. If that concern runs deep enough, the side issue becomes the main issue. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/22/weekinreview/22stolberg.html

 
Me: Good, intelligent discourse of the major issues are needed in our government, and among us The People. Just as we see how good topics here get derailed into petty bickering, the same thing is occurring within our government. How can we ever expect our supposed Public Servants to change when so many of us seem to revel in this despicable behavior. I myself have been guilty of it in the past. I have allowed some posted to draw me off track, derail a topic, and pretty much ruin the discussion.
 
I say no more, and I hope many of you say the same. If you believe in this, keep it going in other areas of your life. Point out obvious partisan politics and cheer leading everywhere you see it. Point out the distractions, and assist in refocusing efforts. President Obama during his campaign even told the press to stop doing it. So now the question is, do we continue to support these antics and behaviors that are added baggage to dragging us down during a time when we all need to put our heads together and come up with some solutions?



Arpig -> RE: Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (6/6/2009 11:48:41 AM)

While partisan politics is part and parcel of any democratic system, I think the reason it has become so very prelevant in the US is the "two party system". Having only 2 viable parties encourages the "with us or agin us" mindset. If you oppose the position of the Democrats, you are forced into the camp of the Republicans, you have no real 3rd (or 4th, or 5th, etc.) alternative. It is also much harder to work with somebody from a different party if there are only 2, when you spend your time and energy opposing the other guy, it is hard to make up and work constructively together. I think a viable and functioning 3rd party in the US would be beneficial in the extreme, not only in terms of partisanship, but overall.
That's the way I see it, at any rate, though I may be somewhat biased, coming from a country with a successfyl multi-party system.



kdsub -> RE: Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (6/6/2009 12:02:30 PM)

It is absolutely necessary for a healthy democracy in my opinion. An opposing point of view can only be healthy in checking the abuse of power of the majority party.

It is at times frustrating but it serves its purpose in slowing legislation and somewhat controlling pork.

Butch



servantforuse -> RE: Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (6/6/2009 12:04:34 PM)

Gridlock in Congress is a good thing..



DomKen -> RE: Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (6/6/2009 12:12:53 PM)

The fact is this all started with a cadre of young Nixon supporters who came away from the Watergate scandal feeling agrieved, just examine the CV's of the prominent unelected voices on the right starting in the late 70's. They are the ones who took the Nixon 'southern strategy' and turned it into a willing embrace of the right fringe and the emergent theocrats who have done immense harm to this nation while wrapping themselves in the flag and demonizing any who dare speak out against them. Until today we have 'mainstream' right wing commentators openly praising Joe McCarthy and calling for a return of HUAC type investigations.

Yes, the left is engaging in fairly distasteful tit for tat stuff but how long were we supposed to meekly accept having debate prep stolen, secret diplomacy against the diplomacy of the sitting president, talking heads and elected republicans trying to make liberal into a word to be ashamed of, the right wing's support for domestic terrorists and theocrats, covert and not so covert racist campaigns, slander against veterans simply because of political affiliation, attempts to illegally and unconstitutionally gerrymander state legislative districts to favor the GOP, a national election stolen by intentional and illegal disenfranchisement of thousands of US citizens etc. etc. ad seemingly infinitum.



CruelNUnsual -> RE: Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (6/6/2009 12:14:47 PM)

Politics are no more partisan now than they ever were. What is different is that decades/century old rules of the game are being changed by the party in power leading to obstructionism that would never have been able to exist even 50 years ago. That, imo, is the result of many years of prosperity and relative peace, causing blindness to external threats.

AFA the "success" of proportional voting in Canada, as my partner and TO ex-pat loves to say, all that has led to is a government composed of different shades of red. Proportional voting makes it nearly impossible for major changes in direction...which may be a good or bad thing. Plurality voting inevitably leads to a two party system.



Musicmystery -> RE: Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (6/6/2009 12:27:40 PM)

Hello Orion,

I heard a news report about an interview with a few long-time members of Congress (both major parties) a while back. They were saying that up through the 70s, at the end of the day people from both parties would meet up in the bar, sit down and say "OK, how are we going to get this thing done? What will it take?" and work out compromise approaches and solutions.

"No longer," they said. People don't meet, people don't talk, people don't discuss--it's hardline block party warfare. Members of Congress are just foot soldiers, a voting tally.

Only people can change this. Some very good people, moderate Republicans, were thrown out of office in the 2006 election not because their constituents didn't like them, but because, as they said to reporters, they "couldn't send him back to vote with the president." Democrats are not immune from this either--they just benefited from the overreaching at the time.

But voters have to be alert and vigilant enough that they are forced to tell party leaders "I'm sorry, and I know you're going to punish me for this, but my district will never allow me to support you on this."

We have a long way to go.

Live well,

Tim



kdsub -> RE: Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (6/6/2009 12:47:11 PM)

What gridlock?...Bush, Clinton, Obama they all have passed legislation.

Their needs to be an opposing view... this forces some compromise or focuses the electorate in the next election.

Butch



Thadius -> RE: Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (6/6/2009 12:54:08 PM)

Indeed an opposition party (or 2) lends to the balancing of laws and or regulations.  The point that it becomes spiteful bickering and hate filled ideology is when that disagreement becomes a hinderance and definitely unworthy of the statesmen we have elected to represent us.



Vendaval -> RE: Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (6/6/2009 1:11:22 PM)

Fast Reply -

I would very much like to see a well working multi-party system in US politics. It is encouraging that more representatives listed as Independents are being elected in state legislatures.


(spell check edit 'cause I am tired from a long shift)



Kirata -> RE: Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (6/6/2009 2:22:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

While partisan politics is part and parcel of any democratic system, I think the reason it has become so very prelevant in the US is the "two party system". Having only 2 viable parties encourages the "with us or agin us" mindset.

I very much doubt that mindset is limited to two-party systems. But more to the point, fucked up people will fuck up any system. There is no use looking for something to blame it on, be it the two-party system or whatever else. If we haven't enough common sense and good will to make this one work, I see no reason to believe we would do any better with a different one.

K.





OrionTheWolf -> RE: Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (6/6/2009 2:43:01 PM)

Butch,

If you read the links I gave, it is not about an opposing view. It is about opposing something just because "the other side" supports it. This happens all too often in our political system and her in these forums. Dissenting and opposing voices are absolutely necessary to flesh out any good idea, but to fill discussion with nothing more than imflammatory insults about "the other side" just detracts from things.

I can never remember who said it, but it is a quote that resounds with so much truth and reminds me that intellectual discourse needs two sides "The optimist believes that we live in the best of all possible worlds; while the pessimist fears this is true." I can never remember who to attribute that to though.

In one of those links is a good example of some of the political distractions that occur, and that The President agrees are sitractions from larger issues.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

What gridlock?...Bush, Clinton, Obama they all have passed legislation.

Their needs to be an opposing view... this forces some compromise or focuses the electorate in the next election.

Butch




TheHeretic -> RE: Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (6/6/2009 2:59:05 PM)

     Funny how they all leap to tell us partisan politics is bad, once we have a Democrat in the White House, ain't it?  Fuck that.  Fuck them.  The left set the bar, now it's their turn to limbo under it.

   



Musicmystery -> RE: Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (6/6/2009 3:02:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Funny how they all leap to tell us partisan politics is bad, once we have a Democrat in the White House, ain't it?  Fuck that.  Fuck them.  The left set the bar, now it's their turn to limbo under it.

Rich, this makes no sense. People on both sides complained about partisan politics throughout the previous administration and for long before that one.





Kirata -> RE: Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (6/6/2009 3:05:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I can never remember who said it, but it is a quote that resounds with so much truth... "The optimist believes that we live in the best of all possible worlds; while the pessimist fears this is true."

I think the correct quote is, "A pessimist believes all women are sluts. An optimist hopes so."

Sorry, carry on.

K.





Arpig -> RE: Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (6/6/2009 3:15:27 PM)

quote:

I can never remember who said it, but it is a quote that resounds with so much truth and reminds me that intellectual discourse needs two sides "The optimist believes that we live in the best of all possible worlds; while the pessimist fears this is true." I can never remember who to attribute that to though.


James Cabell in his book "The Silver Stallion"



TheHeretic -> RE: Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (6/6/2009 3:21:53 PM)

      I'm not buying that, Muse.  The eight years of the previous administration brought things to the ugliest level I have seen in my lifetime, and I came to political awareness at a very early age.  It was the tone of discourse, particularly going into the '04 election, that finally caused me to switch sides. 

      Yes.  I completely agree that blind partisanship is a bad thing.  I just don't see anybody on the left of the aisle, except maybe Joe Lieberman, with an inch of high ground to preach from. 


      Tell you what, though.  Get John Kerry, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, John Murtha, and the rest to collectively and individually apologize to Geoge Bush and Dick Cheney for the behavior of their party and supporters over the last eight years, and I'll lend my voice to condemning any hint of such actions from the other side.  It shouldn't be a problem.  The left is currently so eager to apologize for what the country has done, apologizing for the party ought to be even easier, right? 

       I'll not be holding my breath.



Musicmystery -> RE: Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (6/6/2009 3:24:59 PM)

quote:

The eight years of the previous administration brought things to the ugliest level I have seen in my lifetime, and I came to political awareness at a very early age.

How old were you when Clinton was in office?

[8|]




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (6/6/2009 3:35:32 PM)

And a good example of th perpetuation of the problem, as well as justification for the continuation. No matter if it is left or right, derailing discussion and working towards solutions of serious issues, just because of partisan politics is petty and leads no where. I have been against this kind of political theater and posturing for a very long time. I was against the stopping of our government over a blow job, just as I am against the BS that is currently occuring. One side or the other may win a point, but we are all going to lose the game if this extremist mentality continues.

I care less which party is in the White House, as much as whether they are effective and responsive to the issues before them. You seem to be too concerned as to which party is in control, and less concerned with solving the actual problems.


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

    Funny how they all leap to tell us partisan politics is bad, once we have a Democrat in the White House, ain't it?  Fuck that.  Fuck them.  The left set the bar, now it's their turn to limbo under it.

  



DomKen -> RE: Partisan Politics Detrimental to The US (6/6/2009 3:56:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      I'm not buying that, Muse.  The eight years of the previous administration brought things to the ugliest level I have seen in my lifetime, and I came to political awareness at a very early age.  It was the tone of discourse, particularly going into the '04 election, that finally caused me to switch sides. 

      Yes.  I completely agree that blind partisanship is a bad thing.  I just don't see anybody on the left of the aisle, except maybe Joe Lieberman, with an inch of high ground to preach from. 


      Tell you what, though.  Get John Kerry, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, John Murtha, and the rest to collectively and individually apologize to Geoge Bush and Dick Cheney for the behavior of their party and supporters over the last eight years, and I'll lend my voice to condemning any hint of such actions from the other side.  It shouldn't be a problem.  The left is currently so eager to apologize for what the country has done, apologizing for the party ought to be even easier, right? 

       I'll not be holding my breath.

You're either kidding or weren't paying attention. What did Kerry, Reid, Pelosi or Murtha do prior to 2004 that was so awful to make it worse than slandering a multiple amputee veteran's service? When did you learn the whole w's pryed out of keyboards when GWB took over was a flat out lie? Why didn't it bother you that an incoming administration orchestrated a completely made up story simply to score points on the outgoing administration?

I've heard this claim from you before and I simply can't make sense out of it. You switched parties after SBVT and you went from the Dems to the GOP due to the Dems bad acts? Really? Could you possibly describe what it was that caused that decision?



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