leadership527
Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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Wow... suddenly I'm on the spot to say something smart... *looks around furtively for a way out*
Given that a few people are right... as near as I can tell, this is pretty much home court for me (barring the whole kinkster angle), I've spent some time trying to get this post right. This sounds to me like it might be a pivotal moment in you and your boyfriend's lives and, if possible, I'd like to be a positive influence.
Some of what I'm saying here is going to be radically refuted by a lot of other people. Normally I try to avoid subversive statements under the theory that it's pointless to go to a basketball game and bitch about how baseball players make better batters. But in this case, I feel like I'm going to just answer as I see it. You'll have to draw what you can from my thoughts here, other people's thoughts, and most importantly, your own selves.
To the other readers, yeah yeah, I know mine isn't the one true way. But I, for once, wanted to answer the question directly without 9 billion caveats and more hedge-words than actual content. All of us should be smart enough to know already that this is MY life and MY vision... not yours. Take it as such.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Danibelle
Our relationship is not D/s based or M/s based or TPE or any kind of title you may want to put on a relationship dynamic involving submission. We've been together for six years and have lived together for almost two in a very equal manner. Our kinks only come out in the bedroom. We also see other people, sometimes together, sometimes apart. That's all fine and going well.
Carol and I were, and still are in a great many ways, vanilla. So whatever I say here might well be 100% off base. Specifically, Carol and I were are pretty normal vanilla married couple (10 years when we did the collaring). We loved each other. We had a mostly satisfying sex life. There were some wild moments but for the most part, no whips & chains in our life and no alternate partners. Nothing much has really changed once she put on my collar other than she obeys which has put me in the position of being able to lead. And what we've found is that that works out for us. But really the overall level of kinkiness hasn't changed.
Also, when I discuss our end-state, for us that is, in fact, a situation of ownership. That is to say, I perceive myself as being completely and totally responsible for another human being. Her life is mine... which means all the responsibility for that life is mine too. While what we do is very soft and fluffy and disney-esque on the outside and I exhibit a great deal of flexiibility with her as her Master, at the core, for both of us, there is the conviction that she is mine until such time as I prove myself unworthy of owning her. For us, this is not a bedroom thrills. My ownership of her includes everything. For instance, how the hell do I make her a published and nationally known woodworker? That's on my list of things I gotta make happen somehow -- not exactly hot kinky sex and not exactly fun. She has placed herself into my custodial care and my commitment is to make her the best Carol she can be... which oddly, may or may not turn out to be my slave in the end *laughs*. I'm pretty sure if I understand these terms correctly, that viewpoint makes me the ever-so-dreaded "service top" and "not real". So again, be wary of viewpoint differences here. I don't self-identify as BDSM or kinky and so my headspace might be totally wrong for you two.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Danibelle
Yesterday, in an attempt to talk to him about taking our play to a more intense level, he brought up that I either couldn't or wouldn't submit to him.
OK, for the record, I said exactly the same thing to Carol. I said to her flat out, "You're a bedroom sub and if I was going to do anything, it'd be a slave" (I'm an all or nothing kind of guy in a lot of ways). It is the 2nd most astonishingly completely wrong thing I have ever said in my life. I'm actually quite proud of it. It's not easy to be THAT wrong. Very very rarely am I 100% completely and totally wrong about something through and through. So I kind of cherish it when it happens. Your mileage may vary.
But let me ask you a question.... So you and he want to go out to dinner. He wants steak and you want to go to a sushi place. Ignoring any D/s or whatnot, how does that conversation tend to play out? Does he get his way? And if he does, is he careful to be sure you get your way sometimes too? Think about back to the very beginning of your relationship? In general (not all the time), when there's a disagreement, do you tend to defer to him or not? That would be one sign of natural proclivities... a sign that in hindsight was written in huge flaming letters in Carol's and my life. From his standpoint, when presented with a confusing and challenging scenario, does he naturally step into the lead? For instance, you two are lost in a strange city somewhere and neither of you speaks the local langauge. Will he "get you home" or do you two both face all the uncertainty together?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Danibelle
I told him I didn't even know that was something he wanted. He said he wasn't sure. I said neither was I. I KNOW I'm not sure if that's something I could do. He says, at times, I submit to others and not just bottom for them. It's true. I have a couple of times and had a positive experience, BUT those times were sexually based and took place in a clear scene, not in a day to day kind of thing.
sounds familiar... all except the "other people" part.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Danibelle
But it got me thinking. If neither one of us are sure and both of us are at least a little bit curious, would it be possible to give it a little trial?
That depends. If you read too much on these boards "no". I tend to be a bit more fluid in my thinking about life in general. I don't hold up my role as "master" or her role as "slave" as some sort of sacrosanct holy grail. I feel no pressure to "be real" or claim that this is the only way I could ever imagine having a relationship with Carol. Hence, I have a ton of flexibility to explore, not just in the beginning, but all the way along the way. The only price I pay for that is not being a true dominant in the eyes of the board warriors here. Not self-identifying as into BDSM or being a kinkster is a very freeing thing for us. Sometimes it seems to me that for a bunch of free radicals, the kinkster community sure does like to get forced into nice tidy little boxes.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Danibelle
Maybe picking a stretch of a few days, giving it a real shot, and reflecting and discussing afterward. I think it would be especially hard for us because we're so comfortable in the relationship we have now and it would change. But I do think that if we don't give it a shot, we'll regret not trying.
we'll regret not trying
we'll regret not trying
we'll regret not trying
Well, Carol and I surely would've. But really, the obvious question is if you think you might regret it, then why the hell not give it a shot? There are only really two risks. First, a fair number of BDSM'ers are going to tell you that you're not true, not real, not whatever. Are you OK with that? Secondly, you could torpedo your marriage if you are fools? So? Are you fools?
Carol and I had a wonderful marriage over a long period of time. We were "comfortable" and had our expected pleasant little habits that we followed through our lives. But hey, while "good" is good, you gotta admit that "better" is better. But really, assuming you two are careful and truly love each other, behaving as a team in life, then other than being perceived as unreal by a bunch of strangers what's the reason not to give it a whirl?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Danibelle
Has anyone tried changing a strictly vanilla relationship dynamic (regardless of your bedroom play style) to a D/s based relationship? Did you give it a trial? Maybe a weekend or a random week of your choosing?
We didn't give it a trial based on time. We made a commitment to explore something and that something is a 24/7 something so we started 24/7. How we DID limit it though is in the scope of the D/s. In the beginning, it was only simple areas that were very unlikely to cause turbulence in our marriage... sex stuff, "make me meatloaf for dinner tonight", that sort of thing. One step at a time, as we settled into that dynamic, I'd ask about expanding the scope of the D/s. At some point, it got to more loaded topics like diet and excercise. Carol at first rejected that. I countered with ... "give me 2 months". She agreed. That worked out so then diet and excercise were "in scope".
(right about now is when all the "not true" handwaving will start.... afterall we ALL know that you NEVER negotiate with your slave, right? I point these things out because you'll face the same sorts of condemnation also if you actually explore as opposed to... well... act like idiots. It's best to just acknowledge it up front.)
At some point, it got to be true that it wasn't worth asking anymore if something was an allowable command for me to give. It just became easier to lead and wait to see if she balked. When she did, we slowed down, regrouped, figured out why, and then moved forward together.... LIKE A TEAM OF TWO PEOPLE WHO LOVE EACH OTHER. Very much unlike some sort of BDSM porn about masters and slaves.
For me, the term "TPE" is a journey, not a goal I can get to. When we started this, we staked out the idea that we'd like to be "total". But that was merely an agreed upon joint vision. It was not the reality of the moment. I'm not sure it'll ever be the reality in an absolute sense. Nature abhors absolutes. But that "journey" mindset allowed us a great deal of flexibility and removed a great deal of fear. Hey, we can try it out. It either works or it doesn't in which case we'll try something else out. Most importantly, we are making that journey together, hand-in-hand, as a team. There is no "putting her in her place" or any other such thoughts. There is simply us, together, saying "Maybe it'd work out well if Jeff makes all the decisions. Let's see."
I am not building a Master/slave relationship. I'm building the best relationship with my wife that I can manage and this is merely one manifestation of that. For all of that, it is the most wonderful thing that has ever happened to me other than meeting Carol to start with.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Danibelle
Do you think there are things we should make sure to discuss before we gave this a try?
Sure. You should discuss the fact that you love each other. You should discuss the fact that you trust and respect each other. You should decide if either of you needs to have it all, right now, today in order to feel domly or subly. If that's the case, my recommendation is abandon ship immediately. Otherwise, you're good to go. Figure out a few safe areas and see how he does as your leader. It'll go one of two ways. Either you'll come to respect and trust him even more which becomes the foundation for making the next step or you won't in which case, hey, no harm no foul.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Danibelle
Any advice or comments on this would be greatly appreciated.
Yes, aside from what I've said above, I have one more comment. THis comment is pretty much maligned by everyone here on collarme so take it for what it's worth. In my opinion, you are BOTH going to need to develop significantly more trust, respect, and communication than you currently have. It just plain takes more to do M/s. Just looking at communication alone, I control every aspect of Carol's life whereas I used to only be partially involved in some of them. Clearly, in order to do a good job, I need a LOT more data about what's going on in her head than I used to have. Otherwise, the commands I give are going to suck. In order to get that sort of frank, open communication, you're going to need the trust and respect. So plan on building those things along with the dynamic one step at a time. I can absolutely attest to you that I am much much more aware of exactly what's going on in Carol's head than I have ever been. I know my wife a lot better than I used to.
And that leads me to one closing thought. So why do it? Other than it's all hawt and whatnot, why bother? Honestly, it's a pain in the ass in a lot of ways. For us, the answer is simple. First, it kind of fits us. Carol gets balled up in making decisions that pit her needs against mine. I don't. In general, I'm more confident and assertive in the world at large. In short, I'm a good leader and she's a good follower. But much more importantly than that is the fact that the trust, respect and communication that we have built in order to support this has resulted in a new and much higher level of emotional intimacy between us. In short, it has supercharged our love affair. Frankly, I started this and continue to do it mostly for vanilla reasons. I love my wife and that intimacy helps me love her more. Consider how many women bemoan the fact that their men don't understand them. Some even suggest it's not possible for a man to understand a woman. But even as I sit here right now there is a vastly complicated issue floating around in our marriage. Yet I can tell you with a high degree of precision exactly where Carol's head space is at. In short, I KNOW my wife. And you know what? That's a good thing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Danibelle
I've read a lot of threads about ENTERING into a D/s relationship, but not very many on evolving into one.
I've noticed the same thing and I have some fairly cynical opinions about why that is. I certanily don't believe it is accidental. I'm toying with writing a book on BUILDING a D/s relationship as opposed to "having" one.
To you, specifically, Danibelle, I have a question. This is, perhaps the most serious question of all and only you can answer it. I highly encourage you to answer it truthfully (to yourself and your partner, we don't need to know the answer unless you feel like sharing). In the cold light of day, is it your honest conviction that your dominant wants the best for you rather than simply to use you as an object of sexual gratification and do you believe he is a good enough leader to actually make the best (or something like it) happen? When he gives you a command that you dislike... possibly intensely... do you have conviction that he would not knowingly hurt you and, in fact, has enough self-discipline to deny himself in favor of you. I said it to Carol like this once...
You never say "no" for yourself anymore. But clearly, "no" is the right answer at least some of the time. So if you're not saying it, then the only person who can say it is me. So being the master involves an awful lot of saying "no" to myself and I have to be good with that.
To him, I have one observation... Dude, chill. You don't have to be perfect. She wouldn't have been perfect running her own life either. You only have to do at least as good a job as she would've done. The bar really isn't all that high. Afterall, it's always easier to solve someone else's problems than your own.
Assuming you found any of this worthwhile and you make a go of it, come back and ask me about "sternness" which is, in my mind, the next step. Feel free to cmail if you'd like. If you have questions for Carol, I can forward them.
< Message edited by leadership527 -- 6/8/2009 11:11:43 AM >
_____________________________
~Jeff
I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael
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