Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (Full Version)

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Thadius -> Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (6/8/2009 7:58:16 AM)

quote:


The high court says that it will not hear an appeal from former Army Capt. James Pietrangelo II, who was dismissed under the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy. 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/08/supreme-court-turns-challenge-dont-ask-dont-tell/
quote:

 
WASHINGTON -- The Supreme Court on Monday turned down a challenge to the Pentagon policy forbidding gays and lesbians from serving openly in the military, granting a request by the Obama administration. 

The court said it will not hear an appeal from former Army Capt. James Pietrangelo II, who was dismissed under the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy. 

The federal appeals court in Boston earlier threw out a lawsuit filed by Pietrangelo and 11 other veterans. He was the only member of that group who asked the high court to rule that the Clinton-era policy is unconstitutional. 

In court papers, the administration said the appeals court ruled correctly in this case when it found that "don't ask, don't tell" is "rationally related to the government's legitimate interest in military discipline and cohesion." 

During last year's campaign, President Barack Obama indicated he supported the eventual repeal of the policy, but he has made no specific move to do so since taking office in January. 

Meanwhile, the White House has said it won't stop gays and lesbians from being dismissed from the military. 




Hot off the presses...




Arpig -> RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (6/8/2009 10:42:09 AM)

That whole policy is hypocritical. I thought discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation was illegal in the US. The whole issue is based on the erroneous idea that gays are somehow unable to control their sexual urges. I defy one person to show me a real valid reason why gays should npot be allowed into the military.



Asherdelampyr -> RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (6/8/2009 10:50:05 AM)

Pure, unadulterated Jackassery
A dear friend of mine was booted by that same statute, he was/is the most patriotic american I have ever met, Very intelligent and came from a strong Military background (His father had worked all the way up to Major from Private)
he would have been a total asset to the military that rejected him for what amounts to pure jackassery

((I thought Obama had said that he would get the "Dont Ask, Don't tell" policy removed?

On a somewhat lighter note http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPML-n1kRnY



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (6/8/2009 12:08:10 PM)

The military has exceptions to some of those laws. One's that may impact combat effectiveness, or morale are the primary one's that exceptions are made to. Basically once you join the military, most of your rights are turned into privileges. Since then is known to you before joining, it is not cohersive or deceptive.

It is not a matter of whether they are allowed in or not, but that they cannot openly show their sexuality. If they choose to serve, they must keep it a secret, or at least not blatantly put it out there.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

That whole policy is hypocritical. I thought discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation was illegal in the US. The whole issue is based on the erroneous idea that gays are somehow unable to control their sexual urges. I defy one person to show me a real valid reason why gays should npot be allowed into the military.



Asherdelampyr -> RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (6/8/2009 12:10:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

The military has exceptions to some of those laws. One's that may impact combat effectiveness, or morale are the primary one's that exceptions are made to. Basically once you join the military, most of your rights are turned into privileges. Since then is known to you before joining, it is not cohersive or deceptive.

It is not a matter of whether they are allowed in or not, but that they cannot openly show their sexuality. If they choose to serve, they must keep it a secret, or at least not blatantly put it out there.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

That whole policy is hypocritical. I thought discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation was illegal in the US. The whole issue is based on the erroneous idea that gays are somehow unable to control their sexual urges. I defy one person to show me a real valid reason why gays should npot be allowed into the military.



Ok, a question then
If you had to hide from everyone that you enjoy any form of sex or dating or anything like it... How bad would your life suck?
Is it a good idea to make people choose between being openly able to live a life that isnt harming anyone, and serving thier country? Where does something like that lead?



kdsub -> RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (6/8/2009 12:16:48 PM)

OK...I know I will be considered homophobic by some for my comments... now that would be ironic…but some things are just true…whether I or you like it or not.

It is not gays…or their mores…or the brass… it is soldiers… They do not want or trust gays to be good soldiers that can trust their lives with.

Do I agree…no
Do all soldiers agree…no
Is it the way it is in the arm forces in general…yes

The brass realizes that until the way gays are though of in the general population changes they will be a liability rather than an asset. War is not the place to change social discrimination.

Butch



MrRodgers -> RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (6/8/2009 1:04:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
OK...I know I will be considered homophobic by some for my comments... now that would be ironic…but some things are just true…whether I or you like it or not.

It is not gays…or their mores…or the brass… it is soldiers… They do not want or trust gays to be good soldiers that can trust their lives with.

Do I agree…no
Do all soldiers agree…no
Is it the way it is in the arm forces in general…yes

The brass realizes that until the way gays are though of in the general population changes they will be a liability rather than an asset. War is not the place to change social discrimination.

Butch

Quite the contrary...almost ALL men and women are quite confident in fighting wars and serving in the military with gays...as long as they don't know it.

This reveals the general cowardice and fickle nature of the even the SPOUS.

This is essentially the same as saying (ruling) that a gay man (or woman) has no constitutional right to serve in the military if ANYBODY discovers they are gay.

I wonder how long it will take before this hits private employment ? Probably not very long. What's to stop me from firing any gay once he or she is 'out ?' How about don't ask don't tell at the work place ? After this, it shouldn't be discrimination. Knowing an employee is gay could ruin my workforce if can do the same in the military.



aphotic -> RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (6/8/2009 1:12:10 PM)

This is why I hate the military, amongst numerous other reasons. You don't have to be homosexual to see the bigotry on parade here.

When I was in basic training (for all of 3 weeks, ha), they make you take 2 oaths before entering that say you are not gay. Who cares? Oathing against being gay is in your pledge to be an American soldier right next to committing treason. What is that? You aren't even allowed to look at the girls at basic training anyway, and it's weeks spent entombed in a complete sausage fest.

I think this primarily applies to officers though, as most people who are under the enlisted ranks are rednecks anyway, and there aren't too many gay rednecks.



kdsub -> RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (6/8/2009 1:36:13 PM)

I agree with the ridiculousness of the law but you are a little backwards in your way of thinking. The “don't ask don't tell” is a step up from the past not a step down.

If you think now or in the past being gay was not a drawback in your employment ...and being openly gay could not get you fired then you are not old enough or wise enough.

We have a long way to go in our nation before gay is not a detriment and until that changes the military will continue to reflect the population is draws from.

Butch



Aylee -> RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (6/8/2009 1:38:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic

This is why I hate the military, amongst numerous other reasons. You don't have to be homosexual to see the bigotry on parade here.

When I was in basic training (for all of 3 weeks, ha), they make you take 2 oaths before entering that say you are not gay. Who cares? Oathing against being gay is in your pledge to be an American soldier right next to committing treason. What is that? You aren't even allowed to look at the girls at basic training anyway, and it's weeks spent entombed in a complete sausage fest.

I think this primarily applies to officers though, as most people who are under the enlisted ranks are rednecks anyway, and there aren't too many gay rednecks.


I do not remember that part of the enlistment oath.

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

IIRC, the question about sexual orientation is also crossed out on the enlistment form.  (Of course, as it has been over a decade, it may just not be included.)



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (6/8/2009 2:33:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr

Ok, a question then
If you had to hide from everyone that you enjoy any form of sex or dating or anything like it... How bad would your life suck?


It would likely suck pretty bad.

quote:


Is it a good idea to make people choose between being openly able to live a life that isnt harming anyone, and serving thier country? Where does something like that lead?


The Military has determined it is a good idea, and the current administration upholds that. It probably leads to:

1) Getting fed up with it and leaving the military.
2) Coming out with it and challenging the system that you agreed to follow. This would then lead to your service being terminated in some fashion.
3) Deciding that you are willing to sacrifice and keep it a secret because serving is more important to you.



Asherdelampyr -> RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (6/8/2009 2:37:15 PM)

So then how many bright, hardworking good people is the military losing?
I understand the hesitancy, and saw with my own eyes how homophobic a group of guys get when they are living in the same barracks and showering in the same large room.... I just wish there was a third option



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (6/8/2009 2:46:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Quite the contrary...almost ALL men and women are quite confident in fighting wars and serving in the military with gays...as long as they don't know it.

This reveals the general cowardice and fickle nature of the even the SPOUS.


General cowardice? Based upon this one item you wish to call some of our military personel cowards?

quote:


This is essentially the same as saying (ruling) that a gay man (or woman) has no constitutional right to serve in the military if ANYBODY discovers they are gay.


I do not believe anyone has a constitutional right to serve in the military. If I am mistaken, maybe someone could point that right out to me.

quote:


I wonder how long it will take before this hits private employment ? Probably not very long. What's to stop me from firing any gay once he or she is 'out ?' How about don't ask don't tell at the work place ? After this, it shouldn't be discrimination. Knowing an employee is gay could ruin my workforce if can do the same in the military.



Private employment is different than military service. Give it some more time and I am sure the policy will improve, because the current don't ask, don't tell, is an improvement over the previous policy. This has to do with military cohesiveness, and the psychological impact it may have on others in the unit, or in units they do operations with. Yes it is because many may be homophobic or have a problem with homosexuals, but that is what the military has to deal with currently. Times are changing and in the future it will be easier to enforce, and it will have less of an impact.

It is not so much that I agree with it, but I can see why they are doing it, at least at this time.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (6/8/2009 2:48:56 PM)

I come from a military family, and I can tell you now that the military is more concerned with following orders, and maintaining the status quo, than they are about losing good people. It is also considered a small detriment, compared to the problems they may have in combat areas. This has to do with some people psychological, and/or ingrained prejudices, but we deal with what we have.

I think it would be great if there was another option that was a positive for all the areas of concern.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr

So then how many bright, hardworking good people is the military losing?
I understand the hesitancy, and saw with my own eyes how homophobic a group of guys get when they are living in the same barracks and showering in the same large room.... I just wish there was a third option



Thadius -> RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (6/8/2009 2:51:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr

So then how many bright, hardworking good people is the military losing?
I understand the hesitancy, and saw with my own eyes how homophobic a group of guys get when they are living in the same barracks and showering in the same large room.... I just wish there was a third option


I think the third option is to go to unisex heads, showers, and barracks....

The biggest issue I have with the current policy is that it sets up an oppurtunity for blackmail.  What I mean is it allows for somebody to use another person's sexuality as leverage for whatever purposes.  This in my eyes is an unacceptable security risk.

From my personal point of view, I don't care if you like cock, pussy, ass, or none of the above.  It shouldn't and hopefully doesn't have any impact on whether or not somebody can do a particular job; if and only if it becomes an issue and affects performance should any sort of disciplinary action be taken.

Just my couple of cents,
Thadius



Asherdelampyr -> RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (6/8/2009 2:54:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Quite the contrary...almost ALL men and women are quite confident in fighting wars and serving in the military with gays...as long as they don't know it.

This reveals the general cowardice and fickle nature of the even the SPOUS.


General cowardice? Based upon this one item you wish to call some of our military personel cowards?

quote:


This is essentially the same as saying (ruling) that a gay man (or woman) has no constitutional right to serve in the military if ANYBODY discovers they are gay.


I do not believe anyone has a constitutional right to serve in the military. If I am mistaken, maybe someone could point that right out to me.

quote:


I wonder how long it will take before this hits private employment ? Probably not very long. What's to stop me from firing any gay once he or she is 'out ?' How about don't ask don't tell at the work place ? After this, it shouldn't be discrimination. Knowing an employee is gay could ruin my workforce if can do the same in the military.



Private employment is different than military service. Give it some more time and I am sure the policy will improve, because the current don't ask, don't tell, is an improvement over the previous policy. This has to do with military cohesiveness, and the psychological impact it may have on others in the unit, or in units they do operations with. Yes it is because many may be homophobic or have a problem with homosexuals, but that is what the military has to deal with currently. Times are changing and in the future it will be easier to enforce, and it will have less of an impact.

It is not so much that I agree with it, but I can see why they are doing it, at least at this time.


Checked the constitution ((You know you can get the whole thing on a pdf file now?))
There is a right to defend yourself and family, however there is no basis I found of a right to serve your country in any way.


Private employment has already passed this roadblock, where does the assumption lie that they will go backwards?

((Quoting Orion's post out of a general sense of agreement))




kdsub -> RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (6/8/2009 2:59:14 PM)

I'd be willing to bet the day the majority of Americans believe gay is a normal consequence of life and not a perversion of choice... the military's attitude to gays will change as well.

Can anyone in the discussion say that the majority of Americans today do NOT think homosexuality is perverse?

Butch



DomKen -> RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (6/8/2009 3:01:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

OK...I know I will be considered homophobic by some for my comments... now that would be ironic…but some things are just true…whether I or you like it or not.

It is not gays…or their mores…or the brass… it is soldiers… They do not want or trust gays to be good soldiers that can trust their lives with.

Do I agree…no
Do all soldiers agree…no
Is it the way it is in the arm forces in general…yes

The brass realizes that until the way gays are though of in the general population changes they will be a liability rather than an asset. War is not the place to change social discrimination.

Butch


These identical arguments were made prior to Truman ordering racial integration of the services. The troops, who are trained to obey orders, accepted the orders and got used to it. The same will happen when a president finally orders that homosexuals be allowed to serve openly.



Vendaval -> RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (6/8/2009 3:15:51 PM)

I am actually surprised that the argument for separate gay only units has not been proposed.
Not that would be progress but I can imagine some politician or another thinking that would be a great "compromise".



Asherdelampyr -> RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (6/8/2009 3:21:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

I am actually surprised that the argument for separate gay only units has not been proposed.
Not that would be progress but I can imagine some politician or another thinking that would be a great "compromise".


This may be the one rare instance where government actually learned it's lesson the first time
time will tell though



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