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Releasing information on CIA Interogations Will Gravely... - 6/9/2009 10:14:46 AM

OrionTheWolf

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" CIA Director Leon Panetta has warned that releasing certain documents on the interrogation of al-Qaeda suspects would gravely damage US security.
Mr Panetta made the submission in court papers presented to a US federal judge on Monday.
The CIA chief argued that releasing CIA information describing the tough interrogation methods used would reveal too much to America's enemies.

Civil liberties activists have brought a lawsuit seeking the details. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8091361.stm

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RE: Releasing information on CIA Interogations Will Gra... - 6/9/2009 10:20:37 AM

mnottertail

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I don't see how. What are they going to do with the information? Duct tape the acolytes head to a board and make them watch Cher's final tour in a loop for hours on end to toughen them up?

Or buy up all the Sears Craftsman racheting synergistic pliers propounded by Bob Vila so that we are unable to vicegrip their nuts?

There are only so many ways to torture a human, really. It may seem endless but it is only variation on a simpler theme.

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RE: Releasing information on CIA Interogations Will Gra... - 6/9/2009 2:26:41 PM

rulemylife

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But isn't this always the case?

Vague pronouncements of threats to national security.

The same thing in our lead-up to the Iraq war. They told us we know the threats are there but we can't reveal the details because it would compromise national security.

So we all tucked our little puppy dog tails behind us and said "well they must know what they are doing, and I'm an American so, by God, I support my President", and apparently his omnipotent decision-making ability.

From your link:

In his submission to the court, Mr Panetta wrote: "I have determined that the disclosure of intelligence about al-Qaeda reasonably could be expected to result in exceptionally grave damage to the national security by informing our enemies of what we knew about them, and when, and in some instances, how we obtained the intelligence."

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 6/9/2009 2:28:12 PM >

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RE: Releasing information on CIA Interogations Will Gra... - 6/9/2009 2:33:18 PM

OrionTheWolf

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We either trust what is said, until it is proven that this admin is untrustworthy, or we no longer trust any administration. There are some things that the general public, and more importantly, those we are in conflict with, should not know. If disclosure endangers those intelligence assets then the good of the people must be determined by those in power.

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RE: Releasing information on CIA Interogations Will Gra... - 6/9/2009 2:56:50 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

We either trust what is said, until it is proven that this admin is untrustworthy, or we no longer trust any administration. There are some things that the general public, and more importantly, those we are in conflict with, should not know. If disclosure endangers those intelligence assets then the good of the people must be determined by those in power.

The problem is the whole concept of "national security" gives the government carte blanche to hide any information it chooses to under that guise.

There is no real oversight.

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RE: Releasing information on CIA Interogations Will Gra... - 6/9/2009 3:34:43 PM

Thadius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

We either trust what is said, until it is proven that this admin is untrustworthy, or we no longer trust any administration. There are some things that the general public, and more importantly, those we are in conflict with, should not know. If disclosure endangers those intelligence assets then the good of the people must be determined by those in power.

The problem is the whole concept of "national security" gives the government carte blanche to hide any information it chooses to under that guise.

There is no real oversight.

Well the oversight is supposed to come from Congress and the administration... however, to score points against the previous administration that oversight is now seen as nothing but smoke and mirrors (a political game). Pelosi has helped to fuel this fire by claiming that she was lied to, or not informed during the various briefings, then she retracted a bit trying to say it was the "Bushies" that did this to her. She completely overlooked the fact that besides the few apointees, the rest of the CIA is operated and manned by professionals. She cast a shadow over them and their name, and it is going to continue on into the future. I know she is not the only reason folks don't trust the CIA, but she is one of the highest ranking members of our government to make such accusations, and those accusations carry alot of weight.

Now here we sit with a new administration in office, and the new CIA head Panetta states the exact same thing that the outgoing one did. Releasing this information to the public would be dangerous. In my opinion, without seeing any of the information they are asking for, is that is a correct assessment. It would allow people to narrow down what assets we have in the field, what techniques we have used to gather and verify intelligence, it would further allow for a better judgement of our intelligence capabilities, and finally it would allow for those assets (both tech and human) to be exploited (with false information or avoided).

I may or may not agree with what a particular administration's policies are, but I must trust that those in charge of oversight and running the various military and intelligence agencies are doing their jobs. I also hope that they are going to take the responsibility for keeping the young men and women, performing those duties in the field, protected from needless exposure and other harm.

I am curious, if some would have us just unclassify everything that the government knows or has its hands in?

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RE: Releasing information on CIA Interogations Will Gra... - 6/9/2009 3:56:41 PM

rulemylife

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Declassify all information?

No.

But I think it has become painfully apparent in the decades since WWII that our intelligence agencies, and I include the FBI in that, routinely withhold information that they have no reason to withhold.

It has also been painfully obvious that in many cases the information withheld was due to improprieties within the agency in question.

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RE: Releasing information on CIA Interogations Will Gra... - 6/9/2009 3:57:33 PM

subrob1967

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Need to know...We, the people, just don't need to know.

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RE: Releasing information on CIA Interogations Will Gra... - 6/9/2009 4:02:35 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Need to know...We, the people, just don't need to know.

Yeah, that's always good.

Isn't that the philosophy of most communist nations though?

You know, the ones that you have been so afraid that Obama will turn the U.S. into?

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RE: Releasing information on CIA Interogations Will Gra... - 6/9/2009 7:56:35 PM

servantforuse

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I don't think we as a people need to know everything that goes on. As an example. How would World War II have ended if the American people knew that 9000 soldiers were killed or wounded on the Normandy invasion ? For better or worse, you don't need or want to know everything...

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RE: Releasing information on CIA Interogations Will Gra... - 6/9/2009 10:02:47 PM

OrionTheWolf

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I suggest you pressure your Congressional Reps to improve their oversight. Until then, neither you nor I can make the decision on what to release or what not to release.

Could you please list a case that it was due to the improprieties within the agency, and not the improper conduct of a politician? Now compare how many of the cases were improper, and how many are actually handled. Then calculate a percentage, and let us know what that percentage is. Do you see where I am going with this?

You may not have trusted the last administration, but this one is saying the same thing in this instance. Do you suggest we maybe outsource it to another country to see if it should remain classified? ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Declassify all information?

No.

But I think it has become painfully apparent in the decades since WWII that our intelligence agencies, and I include the FBI in that, routinely withhold information that they have no reason to withhold.

It has also been painfully obvious that in many cases the information withheld was due to improprieties within the agency in question.

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RE: Releasing information on CIA Interogations Will Gra... - 6/10/2009 2:17:21 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Could you please list a case that it was due to the improprieties within the agency, and not the improper conduct of a politician? Now compare how many of the cases were improper, and how many are actually handled. Then calculate a percentage, and let us know what that percentage is. Do you see where I am going with this?

I see exactly where you are going, but these are just a few examples.

I could literally spend days citing you the many different cases of improprieties.

This barely touches on the Hoover era and we haven't even talked about the McCarthy-inspired communist witch hunts or Iran-Contra to name just a couple others.

The FBI's History of Wiretapping - Washington Post Investigations

The FBI broke into civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr.'s home and office and installed room bugs in an attempt to find evidence King was associating with communists. They didn't uncover anything..............

Most famously, former President Richard M. Nixon approved the illegal wiretapping of 17 government officials and reporters in May 1969 to figure out who was leaking information to the press, along with the taping of conversations in his own office.

The bureau: the secret history of the FBI

by Ronald Kessler - 2003 - Political Science - 577 pages
For years, Hoover had tended to equate critics of the FBI with Communists. ... that would justify wiretapping the civil rights leader without violating the ...

The Privacy Snatchers

Martin Luther King

"The actions taken against Dr. King are indefensible.

They represent a sad episode in the
dark history of covert actions directed against law-abiding citizens by a law enforcement
agency," a Senate committee concluded in 1976.

Mail Monitoring

Opening mail may be an imprecise form of surveillance, but that didn't stop the FBI and CIA from surreptitiously reading hundreds
of thousands of letters from 1940 to 1973. Government employees (who took special classes to learn this skill) would stealthily open the envelope
and photograph whatever was inside.

The CIA did it randomly. One agent testified before Congress, "You never know what you would hit."

Included in the agency's dragnet were three U.S. senators, a congressman, a presidential candidate and many business and civil rights
leaders.

Under federal law, opening mail not addressed to you results in fines of up to $2,000 and five years
in jail. But not one agent appears to have been prosecuted.

Eleanor Roosevelt

Even the personal life of the First Lady of the United States is fair game to the eavesdrop establishment.

In March 1943 Eleanor Roosevelt checked into Chicago's Blackstone Hotel on her way to Seattle. In addition to bugging her rooms,
the Army Counter-Intelligence Corps followed her whenever she left the hotel.

Her crime: endorsing left-wing organizations such as the YMCA and the American League for Peace and Democracy.

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RE: Releasing information on CIA Interogations Will Gra... - 6/10/2009 3:43:15 PM

Politesub53

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We have had a similar thing here in the UK today. The Law Lords have ruled that its illegal to hold suspected terrorists under house arrest, without the evidence being tested before a judge and released to the suspect. At president such evidence is classed as secret. While i have sympathy with the security forces, I feel its wrong to deny peoples freedoms without visible proof, even if its only a judge that gets to see such proof.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8092763.stm

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RE: Releasing information on CIA Interogations Will Gra... - 6/10/2009 3:48:43 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Now the question is, do you think it will actually change during the Obama Admin?

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RE: Releasing information on CIA Interogations Will Gra... - 6/10/2009 10:39:43 PM

NihilusZero

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Yep. In the same way that photographic evidence of a husband banging a hooker in a seedy hotel room would "damage the security" of his marriage.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 6/10/2009 10:40:37 PM >

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RE: Releasing information on CIA Interogations Will Gra... - 6/11/2009 3:27:49 AM

Aneirin

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Beware politicians and those in power do not hide behind curtains of secrecy, and not in the public interest to hide their activities, which might very well be unlawful, unconstitutional and immoral. There is of course the hiding so as not to expose a face to wrath of a politician who was supposed to be governing the situation, you know make a head roll as a scapegoat for the politician's failings, ' they lied to me, did'nt keep me informed 'etc. I f politicians after the fact say they did'nt know what was happening, or claims they were lied to, that shows that politician's failing in not being in touch with the situation, trusting people who could well bring them down, are they so naive. Many politicians when they get into power I believe don't give a shit, they have got what they wanted, and now want to move forward, so whose ass needs rimming. Sometimes power has an odd effect on people, not all are capable of handling it correctly.

But, if there is any issues of torture, then really, are you any better than those regimes you choose to police, or is it a case of it is ok if I do it, but not you, a double standard situation where the inevitable conclusion is trust is lost.

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RE: Releasing information on CIA Interogations Will Gra... - 6/12/2009 9:08:33 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Now the question is, do you think it will actually change during the Obama Admin?

I don't know, I can only hope (you know, hope and change), but I think it should be concern for everyone, regardless of political stance.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 6/12/2009 9:13:46 AM >

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RE: Releasing information on CIA Interogations Will Gra... - 6/12/2009 9:43:58 AM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I don't think we as a people need to know everything that goes on. As an example. How would World War II have ended if the American people knew that 9000 soldiers were killed or wounded on the Normandy invasion ? For better or worse, you don't need or want to know everything...

Would you mind answering thhat question yourswelf.I am curious to see whether you think the outcome would have been differant,after almost 3 years of war huge material and personal losses....do you imagine that ghastly number would have led the people to rise up and demand we negotiate with the Axix powers?
seriously ,is that how you see it happening?

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RE: Releasing information on CIA Interogations Will Gra... - 6/12/2009 10:51:12 AM

subrob1967

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Need to know...We, the people, just don't need to know.

Yeah, that's always good.

Isn't that the philosophy of most communist nations though?

You know, the ones that you have been so afraid that Obama will turn the U.S. into?

I don't know, I haven't lived under a Communist government...Yet.

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Post #: 19

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