the BNP, the UAF and free speech

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LadyEllen -> the BNP, the UAF and free speech (6/9/2009 2:48:54 PM)
Following the election of two of its members to the European Parliament, the BNP today arranged a press conference on the lawns outside the UK Parliament at Westminster. Leader Nick Griffin managed in the end to speak for just a few seconds, before a protesting crowd drew up behind organised by Unite Against Fascism (UAF) which drowned him out and then drove him and his small group out, although only one egg was actually landed on him. The UAF say that preventing free speech by the BNP is justified because they’re fascists who deny the holocaust, worship Hitler and wish to deny others even the right to life. The BNP as one might expect, differ somewhat on the point and in an interview on Channel 4 news this evening, their leader refuted each of the allegations of the UAF – making the point that if fascists are characterised by political violence then viewers could make their own minds up about what they saw in the report. Sorry to say, the whole thing could not have gone better for Nick Griffin and the BNP had it been orchestrated for them. The BNP emerged as the persecuted victims of a bunch of nutcases and ethnic minorities, just as they have told it for years. The anti-fascists played their parts perfectly, and looking at the two groups – the BNP seemingly respectable in their suits and ties, withdrawing calmly and without retaliation, and the UAF in the modern street garb popular on any sink estate screaming and shouting obscenities alongside their threatening behaviour, it is difficult to imagine “middle England” sympathising more with the latter than with the former. Meanwhile the mainstream parties are apparently still deciding what to do about the BNP and whether to break the code whereby they will not so much as share room with them let alone debate them. They’d best make up their minds damned quick, because many more scenes like today’s on national TV and we can “look forward” to ongoing BNP success. E

numuncular -> RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech (6/9/2009 3:02:06 PM)
nick griffin denying the holocaust: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X8QQwU00Jk...feature=related nick griffin denying he denied the holocaust: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-G2x9lotx8...re=channel_page nick griffin adressing a KKK meeting in america, on he'll lie about his views to get elected, and then dismantle democracy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OSzAtxnAJU even after the egging (which I wholeheartedly applaud and If I get enough notice of when and where may be doing the same thing in manchester tomorrow) he was lying about what their press conference was for. the BBC have spent the day giving him a free pass on his filth. It should have been a brick thrown at him. or a petrol bomb.

LadyEllen -> RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech (6/9/2009 3:11:30 PM)
Oh yes N - he truly is an absolute shithead the point though is whether throwing things at him is at all productive when it then appears that he is the good guy being harassed by nutcases? it plays right into their hands is what I'm saying. we rather need open debate, where they can either hang themselves with their words, or they can be hanged by others'. E

Apocalypso -> RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech (6/9/2009 3:24:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyElle, making the point that if fascists are characterised by political violence They aren't. If that was the case every group that's used political violence, from liberals to Christians would be fascist, which patently isn't the case. Fascism is first and foremost a political ideology. Fascists are not simply the personification of violence. quote: Meanwhile the mainstream parties are apparently still deciding what to do about the BNP and whether to break the code whereby they will not so much as share room with them let alone debate them. They’d best make up their minds damned quick, because many more scenes like today’s on national TV and we can “look forward” to ongoing BNP success. While I think this was stuntist, I'm unconvinced it's strengthed the BNP in the way you outline. Far more damaging is the insistence of antifascist groups (the UAF included) of allying themselves with the discredited political mainstream. By doing this, the BNP are able to present themselves as the radical alternative by default. That said, I don't think this did much good either. I think there is a case for physical force antifascism as a tactic- fascism is reliant on territoriality and its a way of countering that. But this strikes me as putting people at risk of arrest for no real strategic gain.

Politesub53 -> RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech (6/9/2009 3:30:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: numuncular the BBC have spent the day giving him a free pass on his filth. It should have been a brick thrown at him. or a petrol bomb. Answering each comment in turn. The BBC and other media outlets expose the BNP for what they are. I dont see how thats giving them a free pass. As for the petrol bomb comment, so we are allowed freedom of thought and speech, as long as it is something you approve of ? The BNP are racist scum, thats clear to most people, but in a democracy, everyone is allowed a viewpoint. Thats why Labout brought in race hate laws, so the extremists in the UK can be dealt with in the proper manner.

Starbuck09 -> RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech (6/9/2009 3:39:04 PM)
If a democracy is not strong enough to debate the issues that the B.N.P. personifies then it is a poor excuse of a democracy. The day when we need the moronic violence seen today to prevent a party like the B.N.P. from gaining power is the day that our democracy will finally have died. I am utterly ashamed of my country.

LadyEllen -> RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech (6/9/2009 3:40:26 PM)
Just as an update - the subject matter is proving the quickest growing thread over on Stormfront right now in a long time; theyre absolutely over the moon about it all. I think that says a lot. Theyre also asking where the police were, how come the UAF could protest outside Parliament without the usual advance notice and why the BBC failed to blur out Griffin's car registration. Expect to read all about that in tomorrow's Murdoch press I'm sure. E

Apocalypso -> RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech (6/9/2009 3:41:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Just as an update - the subject matter is proving the quickest growing thread over on Stormfront right now in a long time; theyre absolutely over the moon about it all. I think that says a lot. However, as someone who monitors Stormfront reguarly. When they're talking about who their main antifascist enemies are, the two main groups they frequently mention are Antifa and Class War. That says an equal amount.

numuncular -> RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech (6/9/2009 3:43:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: numuncular the BBC have spent the day giving him a free pass on his filth. It should have been a brick thrown at him. or a petrol bomb. Answering each comment in turn. The BBC and other media outlets expose the BNP for what they are. I dont see how thats giving them a free pass. As for the petrol bomb comment, so we are allowed freedom of thought and speech, as long as it is something you approve of ? The BNP are racist scum, thats clear to most people, but in a democracy, everyone is allowed a viewpoint. Thats why Labout brought in race hate laws, so the extremists in the UK can be dealt with in the proper manner. if you look on the BBC today, every lie he told in a number of interviews went untouched, probably due to laziness or the time constraints of the news bulletin but still, thats what they did, even when dimbleby gave him a fairly good grilling on sunday nights the lie about voluntary repatriation went untouched. he lies and lies and lies (theres even a BNP document on wikileaks encouraging BNP members when talking to the press to lie repeatedly) the third video I posted is griffin making it perfectly clear what he wants: a racist facist state. probably no one from britain on this site would be safe in such a situation would they? i suggest you take a look at how many people actually get convicted on race hate crimes. and how the BNP completely avoids mentioning blacks and asians now and focuses on vilification of muslims, which isnt covered by those laws. how it uses the term "national identity" when it means "racial purity" at what point does it become necessary to take direct action? the first MEPs? the first MPs? forming a government?

Starbuck09 -> RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech (6/9/2009 3:46:05 PM)
In a democray numuncular violence never becomes an option unless the B.N.P. were to attempt to gain power by force or illegal means. If one has to use violence to suppress a legal party then you have lost what you are trying to protect and the point becomes moot.

Apocalypso -> RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech (6/9/2009 3:49:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 In a democray numuncular violence never becomes an option unless the B.N.P. were to attempt to gain power by force or illegal means. So democracies never use violence to protect themselves? Women gained the right to vote in this country by the use of violence. quote: If one has to use violence to suppress a legal party then you have lost what you are trying to protect and the point becomes moot. Considering what the BNP would do to many people if they got into power, how is an attack on them not an act of self-defence? Fascism doesn't start with concentration camps. That's where it ends.

numuncular -> RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech (6/9/2009 3:51:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 In a democray numuncular violence never becomes an option unless the B.N.P. were to attempt to gain power by force or illegal means. If one has to use violence to suppress a legal party then you have lost what you are trying to protect and the point becomes moot. so if they gain power at the ballot box thats fine is it then? was it fine when hitler gained power? and have you heard of redwatch and c18? how the bnp target people who demonstrate against them, when they can they publish address and other details on the site and people have been attacked as a result of that. I know personally one person who has and people who are on it (I sort of expect that I'll appear on it since I foolishly was at the front of the march on monday in liverpool and my pictures on a local website...)

Starbuck09 -> RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech (6/9/2009 3:55:15 PM)
I didn't say democracies never used violence though apocalypto I said that they never use violence to suppress a legal political party. Once they take that step thy are no longer democracies. As to the second part of your post that is precisely my point fascism starts when what is a to be debated in a contry is decided by the use of violence. Democracies rely on people to use reason to carry an argument not violence. If we cannot defeat the B.N.P. through debate we are finished as a democracy.

Politesub53 -> RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech (6/9/2009 3:56:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: numuncular i suggest you take a look at how many people actually get convicted on race hate crimes. and how the BNP completely avoids mentioning blacks and asians now and focuses on vilification of muslims, which isnt covered by those laws. You are wrong here. The law states the following. Hatred is a strong term that goes beyond simply causing offence or hostility. Hate crime is any criminal offence committed against a person or property that is motivated by an offender's hatred of someone because of their: race, colour, ethnic origin, nationality or national origins religion gender or gender identity sexual orientation disability http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/hate-crime/

Starbuck09 -> RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech (6/9/2009 3:58:13 PM)
If they gain power at the ballot box it is indeed ''fine'' as that is what the people will have decided they want regardless of our own views. Or perhaps you think you should decide what the people want and what they can choose? What political ethos does that sound like? I have heard of both of those organisations and think they are a blemish on my country as are the tactics of those who publish B.N.P. membership accounts and commit violence against them.

numuncular -> RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech (6/9/2009 4:02:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: numuncular i suggest you take a look at how many people actually get convicted on race hate crimes. and how the BNP completely avoids mentioning blacks and asians now and focuses on vilification of muslims, which isnt covered by those laws. You are wrong here. The law states the following. Hatred is a strong term that goes beyond simply causing offence or hostility. Hate crime is any criminal offence committed against a person or property that is motivated by an offender's hatred of someone because of their: race, colour, ethnic origin, nationality or national origins religion gender or gender identity sexual orientation disability http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/hate-crime/ thats where its an aggravating factor though. I'm talking about nick griffin standing up and saying islam is vile, which he can do (and when a prosecution was attempted it failed) whereas he cant say that black people are vile.

Apocalypso -> RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech (6/9/2009 4:03:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 If they gain power at the ballot box it is indeed ''fine'' as that is what the people will have decided they want regardless of our own views. So we shouldn't have gone to war against Hitler?

numuncular -> RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech (6/9/2009 4:05:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 If they gain power at the ballot box it is indeed ''fine'' as that is what the people will have decided they want regardless of our own views. Or perhaps you think you should decide what the people want and what they can choose? What political ethos does that sound like? I have heard of both of those organisations and think they are a blemish on my country as are the tactics of those who publish B.N.P. membership accounts and commit violence against them. I recall no stories of violence being committed against people on the bnp list. but its interesing that you seem to be saying that if the BNP got into power thats ok. is it then ok when they start kicking blacks and asians out of the country? (the third video i posted above has nick saying he wants to "get them all out") what about the ones that dont want to go? what about the gays who are jailed? this would all be fine with you?

Starbuck09 -> RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech (6/9/2009 4:10:16 PM)
Why do you say that apocalypto? Hitler started a war of aggression and was nothing to do with our country. If Hitler had been voted in here I would have despaired not that he was voted in but that the moral fibre and intelligence of those who opposed him was not enough to defeat him, that's the point democracy would be dead anyway. If we are so turgid intellectually that as a nation we can no longer defeat the ideas of say the b.N.P. through debate then we are already lost.

Apocalypso -> RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech (6/9/2009 4:12:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 If we are so turgid intellectually that as a nation we can no longer defeat the ideas of say the b.N.P. through debate then we are already lost. The electors of Millwall did not back a post-modernist Rightist Party, but what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan “Defend Rights for Whites' with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate. (Nick Griffin) I'm not sure the BNP share your belief in fair play...

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