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RE: So Much For Reform In Iran - 6/16/2009 5:44:26 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		Yeah and the Supreme Court should take note as well. Guess you do not believe in the Constitution when it does not go in your favor? Maybe you should take note that there is not even a close comparisson between the two, except maybe in your own mind.

It will be interesting to watch all of this unfold.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

Republicans please take note: this could be a premonition of what could happen to you... should you try to steal another election, like you did in 2000, when you "installed" Bush via a republican supreme court judge.


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RE: So Much For Reform In Iran - 6/20/2009 7:08:02 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

Witnesses report fierce clashes on Tehran streets

TEHRAN, Iran – Witnesses said police fired tear gas and water cannons at thousands of protesters who rallied in Tehran Saturday in open defiance of Iran's clerical government, sharply escalating the most serious internal conflict since the 1979 Islamic Revolution.

Eyewitnesses described fierce clashes near Revolution Square in central Tehran after some 3,000 protesters chanted "Death to the dictator!" and "Death to dictatorship!" Police responded with tear gas and water cannons, the witnesses said.

English-language state TV said a blast at the Tehran shrine of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini had killed one persona and wounded two but the report could not be independently confirmed due to government restrictions on independent reporting.

Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei warned opposition leaders on Friday to end street protests or be held responsible for any "bloodshed and chaos" to come.
(Full article here).




Obama refuses to say anything in support of the Iranian people because he doesn't want anyone to think that we are "meddling".

http://www.examiner.com/x-13415-Raleigh-Libertarian-Examiner~y2009m6d19-Obama-says-he-doesnt-want-to-meddle-in-Iran



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RE: So Much For Reform In Iran - 6/20/2009 7:19:55 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Doesn't it suck when reality messes up the theories of how things ought to be? 



Anyone interested in politics rather than tribal power should consider two things:

1) Liberals should consider that Edmund Burke forsaw the chaos and destruction in the immediate aftermath of the French Revolution. Many people assume that he wrote his polemic after the Jacobin terror had accounted for the deaths of thousands of French people. His belief that enlightenment thinkers were naive to assume that it was possible to reform society on the basis of a priori conceptions of natural rights and reason and ignore the risk associated with this turned out to be more than simply a pessimistic view of human nature.

2) Conservatives should consider that social reform for the greater good of society is not only possible but has actually happened and you'll see the evidence all over the Western world in the preceeding 500 years.

I suppose there is one logical conclusion: social reform for the greater good is possible but it has to be slow steady organic progress rather than a revolution that sloughs off the past.

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RE: So Much For Reform In Iran - 6/20/2009 7:35:04 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity



Obama refuses to say anything in support of the Iranian people because he doesn't want anyone to think that we are "meddling".

http://www.examiner.com/x-13415-Raleigh-Libertarian-Examiner~y2009m6d19-Obama-says-he-doesnt-want-to-meddle-in-Iran




Great. But couldn't he just stand up and take a bold position now, and apologize for it later?


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RE: So Much For Reform In Iran - 6/20/2009 7:40:27 AM   
xBullx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Great. But couldn't he just stand up and take a bold position now, and apologize for it later?



Isn't that what he has always done up until this point. Alter his truths, misrepresent his ideas and then apologize, wait his followers do the apologizing part I guess.

This is the first time he's actually remaining commited to his original premise, he can't help the fact that the premise seems so illegitimate.

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RE: So Much For Reform In Iran - 6/20/2009 7:48:02 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx
Isn't that what he has always done up until this point. Alter his truths, misrepresent his ideas and then apologize, wait his followers do the apologizing part I guess.

This is the first time he's actually remaining commited to his original premise, he can't help the fact that the premise seems so illegitimate.


Oh, he's done more than his fair share of apologizing on his own. And now his policy of "apology diplomacy" has come back to bite him; he probably feels he can't take a strong pro-freedom stance on Iran without looking like a hypocrite in the eyes of the muslims to whom he's been apologizing right and left. He doesn't want to risk being seen, so early in his administration, as just another American imperialist president. It's very disappointing. And don't think for a moment that the mullahs are not taking note of how easy it is to find his vulnerabilities.


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RE: So Much For Reform In Iran - 6/20/2009 8:14:29 AM   
Sanity


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The sad part about this is that the Mullahs are blaming America for "meddling" as it is, even though Obama has failed to say anything supportive. Iran's supreme leaders have effectively shut down all news gathering activities and they've slowed the Internet to a crawl, so the only "news" that's getting out onto the streets is the word of the official state media.

So effectively, to many Iranians, everything is all our fault anyway.





< Message edited by Sanity -- 6/20/2009 8:30:03 AM >

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RE: So Much For Reform In Iran - 6/20/2009 9:15:44 AM   
rulemylife


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Status: offline 		Sounds pretty supportive to me:


Obama 'Very Concerned' About Iran Leader's Threat to Crack Down on ...

"I'm very concerned based on some of the tenor -- and tone of the statements that have been made -- that the government of Iran recognize that the world is watching," the president told CBS News. "And how they approach and deal with people who are, through peaceful means, trying to be heard will, I think, send a pretty clear signal to the international community about what Iran is and -- and is not."

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RE: So Much For Reform In Iran - 6/20/2009 9:18:19 AM   
Sanity


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He really needs to spit the mush out of his mouth, and then try it again...


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RE: So Much For Reform In Iran - 6/20/2009 9:49:20 AM   
rulemylife


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Status: offline 		Considering we just have had the 20th anniversary of Tiananmen Square I notice many conservative bloggers are comparing Bush Sr.'s response to that with Obama's response to the Iranian protesters, in a negative light.

Myself, I think Bush Sr. acted as responsibly as Obama is doing now, just as he did by not moving our military into Baghdad during the Gulf War.

Contrast that with his son's cowboy mentality and tell me which approach worked better. 


< Message edited by rulemylife -- 6/20/2009 9:50:19 AM >

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RE: So Much For Reform In Iran - 6/20/2009 10:12:56 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


He really needs to spit the mush out of his mouth, and then try it again...




       I disagree, Sanity.  I think President Obama is taking the right track on the unrest in Iran.  He has to say something, and verbalizing pleasant sounding mush has been at the top of his resume for a long time.

      This isn't our cowpie to step in.

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RE: So Much For Reform In Iran - 6/20/2009 10:25:24 AM   
Sanity


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As the people of Iran are shamefully denied the results of their elections, Obama sits and reads platitudes of nothingness off his beloved teleprompters while dutifully wringing his hands.

Maybe he will remind us that the illegitimate crazies who have pirated the Iranian elections deserve nuclear weaponry, because we have them.

This entire situation is truly a tragedy of epic proportions.

Obama would do good to at least speak of solidarity with the people of Iran, he could praise Democracy, and deride the shameful actions of the religious fanatics who are stealing the future of all Iranians before his very eyes.

Ah, but then he would be called a "cowboy" wouldn't he.

Well then, where is a cowboy when you really need one.




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RE: So Much For Reform In Iran - 6/20/2009 10:33:09 AM   
Sanity


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Whether we stand with the Iranian people or not, we are the target of the same fanatical propaganda as always, and so if we're gonna do the time we may as well do the crime. Obama is supposed to be our new Muslim face, as he has read his beautiful speeches proclaiming that America is the largest Muslim nation, and so everyone in the Mid East loves him now. Right?

So lets see him spend some of the political capital his pretty speeches have earned him. I'm not calling for him to mass troops on the border, I'm just saying he could be more forthright in supporting Democracy there, and denouncing actions of those who have obviously stolen elections.


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      I disagree, Sanity.  I think President Obama is taking the right track on the unrest in Iran.  He has to say something, and verbalizing pleasant sounding mush has been at the top of his resume for a long time.

     This isn't our cowpie to step in.


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RE: So Much For Reform In Iran - 6/20/2009 10:50:52 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

So lets see him spend some of the political capital his pretty speeches have earned him. I'm not calling for him to mass troops on the border, I'm just saying he could be more forthright in supporting Democracy there, and denouncing actions of those who have obviously stolen elections.



To begin with, we don't have any facts to support the claim the election was stolen.

And even if that turns out to be the case, what should be done?  Aside from massing troops on the border, which you say you are not calling for, we already have diplomatic and economic sanctions in place.

As far as democracy, the ruling clerics hold the power so unless they are somehow ousted calling the election democratic is a sham no matter who won.

If only we could get Dubya back to remind them they are part of the Axis of Evil, that would probably do the trick. 

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RE: So Much For Reform In Iran - 6/20/2009 10:59:05 AM   
Sanity


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If you had been reading the news you would know that there is an abundance of evidence pointing to stolen elections, in fact I've even posted one of the most common sense observations here in this thread.

And we're not those bad evil people who liberated 50 million people in Iraq and Afghanistan anymore. We're just another Muslim nation now, so Obama could admonish them out of a brotherly sense of concern.

Considering Obama's massive ego though, allow me to rephrase that - out of a  fatherly sense of concern... or even a god-like sense of concern.



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RE: So Much For Reform In Iran - 6/20/2009 11:32:58 AM   
Sanity


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We don't need W to remind Iran that they are part of the Axis of Evil, Obama has been carrying that baton for a long time now. At least, while reading off his teleprompter in front of pro-Israeli crowds:


quote:

Sen. Barack Obama said Friday the use of military force should not be taken off the table when dealing with Iran, which he called "a threat to all of us."

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/281249,CST-NWS-OBAMA03.article



And since his teleprompter was brave enough to say that much, what's the possible harm in his teleprompter scrolling a few words now in favor of free and fair elections there?

It's just amazing to me that I even have to argue this. We're talking about fair elections - aren't Democrats in favor of those?


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
If only we could get Dubya back to remind them they are part of the Axis of Evil, that would probably do the trick.






< Message edited by Sanity -- 6/20/2009 12:31:52 PM >

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RE: So Much For Reform In Iran - 6/20/2009 1:18:06 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		      Sanity, I think Pres. Obama is taking the right course here.  The most recent statement I've seen from him seems to me properly balanced.  He is condemning the violence, without sticking our nose into the fan.

"We call on the Iranian government to stop all violent and unjust actions against its own people," Obama said in a written statement. "Suppressing ideas never succeeds in making them go away."
 
Yahoo News link




    

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RE: So Much For Reform In Iran - 6/20/2009 1:35:37 PM   
Lorr47


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

I wonder if Iran had any "Which candidate would you rather have a beer with" type polls?


Alas, Islam does not allow drinking alcohol...






If you ever get up here, I will take you to some bars near Dearborn.

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RE: So Much For Reform In Iran - 6/20/2009 3:00:58 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


If you had been reading the news you would know that there is an abundance of evidence pointing to stolen elections, in fact I've even posted one of the most common sense observations here in this thread.



Yes, there have been observations, as you said, and suspicions.  That doesn't amount to evidence.  And since Iran does not allow independent election monitoring, it's likely there will never be, unless the opposition party can prove its claims.

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RE: So Much For Reform In Iran - 6/20/2009 3:09:47 PM   
Sanity


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Someone once said that the truth will set you free, yet you say it isn't PC to speak of reality, to address it.

I am of a different mind, but you know that.

One other point though is that Ahmadinejad should be called into shame. Maybe the Europeans could say it, if America is too afraid to "meddle".

All that needs to be said is "Shame on you, you're not the legitimate leader of Iran, and we refuse to recognize you as such."

Maybe a country with some real backbone could do it.

Like maybe Poland. Or possibly the French...




quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Sanity, I think Pres. Obama is taking the right course here.  The most recent statement I've seen from him seems to me properly balanced.  He is condemning the violence, without sticking our nose into the fan.

"We call on the Iranian government to stop all violent and unjust actions against its own people," Obama said in a written statement. "Suppressing ideas never succeeds in making them go away."
 
Yahoo News link










< Message edited by Sanity -- 6/20/2009 3:23:37 PM >

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