RE: So Much For Reform In Iran

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TheHeretic -> RE: So Much For Reform In Iran (6/20/2009 3:55:39 PM)
Sanity, I'm not willing to root for the USA falling into even deeper shit, so you can score points on the guy neither of us voted for. You do undserstand that this election was completely meaningless in terms of the actual power structure over there, right?

Sanity -> RE: So Much For Reform In Iran (6/20/2009 4:06:39 PM)
This is about Democracy Rich, something I believe in. I see a whole nation enslaved and it affects me deeply, especially when they are prisoners of people who are marching them into jihad. This isn't about politics, that election was stolen and someone should have balls enough to say as much.

NorthernGent -> RE: So Much For Reform In Iran (6/20/2009 4:59:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity This is about Democracy Rich, something I believe in. I see a whole nation enslaved and it affects me deeply Perhaps you're a closet liberal.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: So Much For Reform In Iran (6/20/2009 5:11:33 PM)
If they are not willing to put forth the effort to throw off those chains, then they deserve them. Liberty is truly something that should be fought for, so that it is actually appreciated. This is actually an area I do not have a problem with what Obama has done. Hopefully we are working back channels to assist as much as possible, but not so much that we get drug into anything, or have a PR fiasco. The only thing in Iran I am truly concerned about, is zealots with nukes. If the cause chaos in the region, then let someone else clean it up. Didn't they just enter into some alliance with some other global power players? quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity This is about Democracy Rich, something I believe in. I see a whole nation enslaved and it affects me deeply, especially when they are prisoners of people who are marching them into jihad. This isn't about politics, that election was stolen and someone should have balls enough to say as much.

DomKen -> RE: So Much For Reform In Iran (6/20/2009 6:42:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity This is about Democracy Rich, something I believe in. I see a whole nation enslaved and it affects me deeply, especially when they are prisoners of people who are marching them into jihad. This isn't about politics, that election was stolen and someone should have balls enough to say as much. You believe in democracy? Since when? You certainly didn't after the 2000 or 2004 elections

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: So Much For Reform In Iran (6/20/2009 8:02:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf If they are not willing to put forth the effort to throw off those chains, then they deserve them. Liberty is truly something that should be fought for, so that it is actually appreciated. They seem to be making a considerable such effort these last few days, and I'm frankly quite impressed. I wasn't expecting this, but they're showing some serious stones right now. I'm going to be watching this with quite a bit of interest as it continues to develop.

Sanity -> RE: So Much For Reform In Iran (6/20/2009 8:20:27 PM)
Perhaps. But the real kind of Liberal, NG. Not your typical NeoLiberal, which has hijacked the Democratic party over here... [image]http://www.collarchat.com/image/s1.gif[/image] quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity This is about Democracy Rich, something I believe in. I see a whole nation enslaved and it affects me deeply Perhaps you're a closet liberal.

TheHeretic -> RE: So Much For Reform In Iran (6/20/2009 9:02:50 PM)
Can we please try to remember that both sides in this are "allah akbar" shrieking, Islamic Crazy People? This is a domestic disturbance, and the person most likely to get seriously hurt is the outsider who tries to get involved. Neither side in this likes us. Back away, have a donut and a cup of coffee.

Sanity -> RE: So Much For Reform In Iran (6/20/2009 9:22:39 PM)
No, there is a faction in Iran that is very Western and very sophisticated. Iranians prior to the revolution were some of the best educated and most (classical) Liberal in their attitude in the entire region. The struggle there (as I see it) is between those who want to step into this current century and those who are determined to drag Iran back in time a thousand years. Things may have changed since I've had a chance to chat with any Iranian refugees, but no Rich, I believe you're mistaken about this.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: So Much For Reform In Iran (6/20/2009 9:56:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Can we please try to remember that both sides in this are "allah akbar" shrieking, Islamic Crazy People? This is a domestic disturbance, and the person most likely to get seriously hurt is the outsider who tries to get involved. Neither side in this likes us. Back away, have a donut and a cup of coffee. I don't drink coffee, and I don't feel you should either. We need our sleep so we can be well-rested when we get together to solve the world's problems like this. Personally, I couldn't care less who likes us and who doesn't, bro. I care about who we can do business with. There's a sizable, and apparently growing, segment of Iranian society that wants to move their country in a more progressive direction. There are significant ideological and political differences between the 60 and 70 year old mullahs and the 20 and 30-something students and intellectuals, and it's those younger, socially progressive Iranians who are risking their lives in the streets this weekend to move their country toward the more moderate Iran of which they dream. They may never like us, but they don't need to. If they succeed, we succeed, because their vision of an ideal Iran is much closer to our own vision than the Iran that the mullahs would like to maintain. It'd be a lot easier to do business with the younger Iranians than it is with the mullahs, and i contend that it's in our best interests for the moderates to strengthen their position, as much as that's possible. Toward that end, I believe it would be worthwhile for the United States to do what it can to encourage that social change, to whatever degree it's prudent for us to do so. I'm not for a moment advocating direct involvement, but a positive message at this critical moment could go a long way toward encouraging them now and facilitating friendlier relations later, if and when they succeed.

FangsNfeet -> RE: So Much For Reform In Iran (6/20/2009 10:54:57 PM)
What group of people can hand count 36 million votes in 24 hours and determine that the winner got 35 million? If this incident leads to civil war, then maybe Iran won't declare war on the world after all or atleast not for a much later date than expected.

Politesub53 -> RE: So Much For Reform In Iran (6/21/2009 3:15:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Can we please try to remember that both sides in this are "allah akbar" shrieking, Islamic Crazy People? This is a domestic disturbance, and the person most likely to get seriously hurt is the outsider who tries to get involved. Neither side in this likes us. Back away, have a donut and a cup of coffee. I dont think this is entirely true Rich. Do you think Iranians are any different from us in the west, and just want to get on with their own lives ? Sure the Ayatollah can bus mobs into Iran screaming anti US and Uk chants, like he did yesterday. That doesnt put every Iranian in the same boat does it ? As for President Obama not making any comments, maybe he already has. Maybe when he made the offer of talks, it gave the more moderate leaders the inspiration to demonstrate. Maybe when he made the offer of talks, it scared the hardliners into taking a strong stand, which included rigging the election. So maybe it was his comments that partially set the ball rolling. Ahmadinejad may have won the election, but the result given cant be right, for the reason Sanity gave. If he has indeed one I would think it was by a much narrower margin, that the hardliners would be unwilling to publish so the public can see. The US and UK need to be careful what they say, while taking a strong line. Its walk the tightrope time. Im pretty sure if the violence worsens both governments ( UK and US ) will be quick to speak out. Meanwhile you can bet that the State Department and Foreign office have men on the gorund assesing the political mood of the Iranian people.

NorthernGent -> RE: So Much For Reform In Iran (6/21/2009 3:21:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Perhaps. But the real kind of Liberal, NG. Not your typical NeoLiberal, which has hijacked the Democratic party over here... [:)] This is all getting a bit confusing. In the world of political commentators Thatcher and Reagan are referred to as Neo-Liberals with their free market approach at home and interventionist approach abroad. If it's to be believed there are more neo-liberals running around then where is the room for the old liberals and the neo conservatives and the old conservatives? quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Democracy something I believe in. I see a whole nation enslaved and it affects me deeply. You do realise that you sound like the leaders of the French and Russian revolutions and every other left-wing coup that has walked this earth? You can't simply slough off the past as it's through the evolution of ideas and institutions that hard won gains are preserved for future generations. You can't just conjure up 'freedom' out of thin air like a magician - it is organic and it's a process not a radical departure - with a radical departure you risk destabilising the country and the hard won gains are lost as new despots move in to fill the vacuum. Take Russia as an example. The United States attempted to change the system overnight - I think they call it 'shock therapy' or something. Yeah the Russians moved to a free market approach......for a short while and then the system collapsed and Putin's hardline nationalists filled the void. You simply can't change a system overnight - call it democracy or saving the world or whatever you will.

Politesub53 -> RE: So Much For Reform In Iran (6/21/2009 3:25:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity No, there is a faction in Iran that is very Western and very sophisticated. Iranians prior to the revolution were some of the best educated and most (classical) Liberal in their attitude in the entire region. The struggle there (as I see it) is between those who want to step into this current century and those who are determined to drag Iran back in time a thousand years. Things may have changed since I've had a chance to chat with any Iranian refugees, but no Rich, I believe you're mistaken about this. Sanity I full agree with your comments here. I think its now imperative that the US and UK dont antagonise the situation, thus pushing the hardliners to take drastic action against the moderates. Lets not forget that even the deployment off 1,000s of riot police was unable to keep the people off of the streets.

thishereboi -> RE: So Much For Reform In Iran (6/21/2009 6:05:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lorr47 quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: I wonder if Iran had any "Which candidate would you rather have a beer with" type polls? Alas, Islam does not allow drinking alcohol... [;)] If you ever get up here, I will take you to some bars near Dearborn. This confuses me. Are you implying that because there are bars near Dearborn that Islam allows drinking? And if this was true, wouldn't bars in Dearborn better prove your point? But if you insist then I recomend the Wicked Pary...its held at a club in Dearborn and it's run by a really great couple. Wow I wonder if this means Islam is ok with wiitwd, after all the bar is in Dearborn. I'll have to think about that for a bit.

TheHeretic -> RE: So Much For Reform In Iran (6/21/2009 8:26:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 I dont think this is entirely true Rich. Do you think Iranians are any different from us in the west, and just want to get on with their own lives ? I wouldn't doubt that for a moment, Polite. I wish them the very best in their struggle. My position on this started as, and remains, that the US (in particular) needs to stay well the hell out of the situation. Even the perception of our involvement is problematic. Perhaps a new gov't, or a reformed one, would be easier for us to deal with, and a stabilizing force in the region. That both sides are Islamic fundamentalists isn't my opinion of the matter, it's right out of the AP story I linked to on Yahoo earlier. Probably the easiest way for the Powers That Be in Iran to unify the population, and end this spot of bother, would be in opposition to the common enemy. For those not playing the home game, the common enemy in Iran is the US and UK. We are The Great Satan. You want change over there? So do I. My position is that the best way we can facilitate that is to shut up, and mind our own business.

Lorr47 -> RE: So Much For Reform In Iran (6/21/2009 11:21:32 AM)
Like most religious hypocrites many followers of Islam drink in the outlying areas although forbidden by Islam and then waddle back holier than thou.. Kind of like the followers of Islam who go to Jordon to have sex with displaced Iraqi women who are forced to sell themselves to survive; holy at home but hypocrites away. But, this behavior is prevalent in most god fearing schemes. The one major difference I have found relating to Arab Muslims is that they are incapable of telling the truth even under oath. Taking depositions of these people is useless.

kdsub -> RE: So Much For Reform In Iran (6/21/2009 12:33:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lorr47 But, this behavior is prevalent in most god fearing schemes. Just a guess but I'll bet it is prevalent in atheist schemes as well. Butch

TheHeretic -> RE: So Much For Reform In Iran (6/21/2009 12:49:16 PM)
For those who want to actually do something that might help the protesters, here is a quick click to fuck with the efforts of the Iranian gov't to squash communication. On your Twitter, Myspace, Facebook, and yes, right here on CM, change your location to Iran. I heard this discussed on CNN this morning, and had it confirmed by a tech friend as "couldn't hurt," and will likely make things tougher for the techies in Tehran to block communications. (Immediately after that, he started speaking a language that caused my eyes to glaze over.) The US government taking a side in this mess is a problem. A bit of individual monkey-wrenching? I'm in!

rulemylife -> RE: So Much For Reform In Iran (6/21/2009 1:18:43 PM)
The latest update: • Relatives of former Iranian president arrested

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