RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (6/14/2009 10:22:49 AM)

quote:

We should...let China deal with those bastards!


I agree with this part, anyway. Working through China is our best bet.





MarsBonfire -> RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (6/14/2009 10:47:51 AM)

Let's just hope that China, rolling over N. Korea, doesn't get carried away by their own inertia, and end up moving into South Korea as well.

The thing that scares me the most, not just about N.K., or Iran, but about any of these little piddly-shit countries getting ahold of a nuke or four... is that they are fore the most part, controlled by a very few nutcase individuals... either the portly Elvis impersonator, or some crazy, starey-eyed religious leader in a black turban. These people have very little interest in keeping the peace, and many feel they have nothing to lose by attempting to take out their enemies.
They are a cancer on the world.
If we are smart, we'll adopt a policy toward them that, should they use a nuke against a neighbor, for any reason, their country will be erased from the surface of the Earth.

Remember the speech Michael Rennie gave in the first "Day the Earth Stood Still?" It still rings true today. Let them run their country however they like: but if they threaten to extend their violence... reduce them to a burned-out cinder.



Musicmystery -> RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (6/14/2009 10:50:04 AM)

quote:

If we are smart, we'll adopt a policy toward them that, should they use a nuke against a neighbor, for any reason, their country will be erased from the surface of the Earth.


In doing so, we would create a global cloud of dust and radiation.

Not so smart.

And Iran has oil...





OrionTheWolf -> RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (6/14/2009 11:56:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Orion I never said they were no threat...but thank you for making my point for me....they have no sponsor anymore...neither China nor Russia has any interest in seeing this regime gain full nuke capability....


Do you just pull these statements out of your dreams? Your implication was they were not a threat. As far as losing sponsors, they already have the technology, so that does not make much of a difference. But have they lost all of their sponsors?

" Council diplomats said on condition of anonymity that it was not yet clear whether China, the closest its neighbor North Korea has to a major ally, was prepared to actively implement the new sanctions resolution. Beijing ignored an earlier round of sanctions against Pyongyang passed after North Korea's first nuclear test in October 2006. "

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-fg-koreas-nuclear13-2009jun13,0,265600.story?track=rss


quote:


The OP question was how worried should the west be concerning North Korea....I stick to the opinion that while they are troublesome...I won't be losing any sllep over this dysfunctional society.They are effectively isolated and will remain so as long as Jong and/or his nutty son are running things....again just my opinion,nothing more.
I think I will skip the resume suggestion ,though I appreciate your looking out for my carreer path.....


Just a dysfunctional society eh? So South Korea, and Japan being attacked would have no implications to the West, the US specifically? Have you read the treaties we have with both nations concerning unprovoked attacks against them? No concern eh?

"Under the 1953 U.S.-R.O.K. Mutual Defense Treaty, the United States agreed to help the Republic of Korea defend itself against external aggression. Since that time in support of this commitment, the United States has maintained military personnel in Korea, including the Army's Second Infantry Division and several Air Force tactical squadrons. To coordinate operations between these units and the over 680,000-strong Korean armed forces, a Combined Forces Command (CFC) was established in 1978. The head of the CFC also serves as Commander of the United Nations Command (UNC) and U.S. Forces Korea (USFK). The current commander is General Walter “Skip” Sharp. "

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2800.htm

Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security:

"Under the treaty, both parties assumed an obligation to maintain and develop their capacities to resist armed attack in common and to assist each other in case of armed attack on territories under Japanese administration. "

Not only these things, but what guarantees are there that N Korea will not sale or trade finished nuclear weapons or the technology to other countries?

Go ahead and don't lose sleep over it, because there are those that will keep watch for you, and help keep you secure in your bed.



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (6/14/2009 2:39:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

We should...let China deal with those bastards!


I agree with this part, anyway. Working through China is our best bet.





I'd agree that working with China is our best option, but it'd be foolish of us to walk away and let them handle it in whatever way they see fit. People need to keep in mind that China's interests vis a vis North Korea, and the Korean Peninsula as a whole, are most definitely not the same as ours, and in some ways are 180 degrees opposed to our own.

If we asked China to make a list of everything they want to see happen on the Korean Peninsula, having a stable communist government in North Korea would be at the very top of their list, and the matter of whether or not that government had nuclear weapons would be like about #10. In between #1 and #10 would be an assortment of concerns similar to ours, such as regionwide political stability and South Korea's economic stability (China is Seoul's biggest trading partner), and another collection of concerns that have nothing in common with our own, such as the impact that millions of North Korean refugees would have on their border regions if war breaks out or Kim's government collapses. Even where their interests do coincide with our own, they're going to prioritize those matters differently than we do, and being that they're the Chinese, they're not going to give a single, solitary flying fuck what we think of the way they prioritize the issues or the way they proceed to act on them. They are are going to act purely in their own self-interest, because they see this as a matter of vital national security, and if we don't like the way they choose to handle it there's not going to be much we can do about it. 

So. Do we need the Chinese on board to craft an effective solution? Yes, absolutely. It's their back yard; there's no way we can landscape it without having them in on the process. But for those of you who think we should just wash our hands of the whole thing and let China work it out all on their own, be careful what you wish for.  It might not turn out the way you expect.



Musicmystery -> RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (6/14/2009 3:07:48 PM)

*you'll notice I omitted the "just walk away" part--that was deliberate.*

[;)]




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (6/14/2009 3:12:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

*you'll notice I omitted the "just walk away" part--that was deliberate.*

[;)]




Oh - well, shit, I know you know better than that.

But others, well... let's just say that not everyone here sees below the top layer on any given issue, and this is one topic that has one hell of a lot of layers. 'Nuff said, eh?



lazarus1983 -> RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (6/14/2009 4:22:39 PM)

To answer the original question, I think that there isn't as much concern about North Korea because they've kind of become a staple on the evening news. We're accustomed to hearing about violence in the Middle East, and North Korea being up to something. North Korea has cried wolf too many times for the average person to sit up and take notice.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (6/14/2009 4:36:20 PM)

I would have to do some searching, but there is an article written by a European think tank, that explains how each step N. Korea has taken, has been very calculated. If enough people believe they are crying wolf, then once the wolf appears, it is already there.


quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

To answer the original question, I think that there isn't as much concern about North Korea because they've kind of become a staple on the evening news. We're accustomed to hearing about violence in the Middle East, and North Korea being up to something. North Korea has cried wolf too many times for the average person to sit up and take notice.



Vendaval -> RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (6/15/2009 11:00:58 PM)

I do agree that the West needs to work with the Chinese to stabilize the threat from North Korea.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

So. Do we need the Chinese on board to craft an effective solution? Yes, absolutely. It's their back yard; there's no way we can landscape it without having them in on the process. But for those of you who think we should just wash our hands of the whole thing and let China work it out all on their own, be careful what you wish for.  It might not turn out the way you expect.





Rule -> RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (6/15/2009 11:20:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

aside from the possibility of a suicide cult at the top in some sort of end of the world mindset that might encourage use of a nuclear weapon (and subsequent retaliation), North Korea does not concern me at all.

yes, they have an impressive looking military. however it is all very well having millions of diligently revolutionary troops well trained in killing and laying down their lives for a personality cult and indeed having hundreds or thousands of tanks and other pieces of equipment - the real question is how much ammunition do they have, how much fuel, how much food to sustain a conventional war?

now they could no doubt acquire such supplies readily should they invade the south, unless a scorched earth policy were effected and assuming they have enough of such supplies to be able to gain ground sufficiently efficiently to acquire them in the first place. even so, assuming they invade the south - its a peninsular, theyre not going any further, and with the whole world being tied into the South Korean economy (not just the neighbours), they would have to then either face the world and repel it or make a hasty retreat or go to the end of their world scenario.

and all this assuming that most of their army did not immediately take advantage of the opportunity to flee the regime, by surrendering en masse.

Quite. North Korea does not concern me at all neither.



slvemike4u -> RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (6/16/2009 11:16:52 AM)

Orion if you are intent on painting North Korea as a 21st century boogie man ala the Soviet Union....feel free to do so.Speaking for myself a land where most of the citizenry are still without indoor plumbing does not keep me up at night.
I am well aware of existing treaties...though in the case of South Korea this is redundant....American forces that would be rolled over during the opening phase of a conflict makes our response self evident.The point I was trying to make and you so blithely keep ignoring is North Korea sans China and/or a newly belligerent Russia could not maintain nor capitalize on any short term gains garnered during the opening days of any conflict..The technological gap is ridiculous....the conversation is silly.Despite all the posturing and bellicose statements they have stayed behind and will remain behind the DMZ for the foreseeable future...to do otherwise accomplishes nothing other than expose the weakness's inherent in their society.



pahunkboy -> RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (6/16/2009 11:24:37 AM)

It is a non-issue.

We are upon massive global casualties.   plain and simple.  my worry wont change that.

If I recall correctly- the USA is the only country that ever used a nuke!

I am more concerned over Iran.  But frankly- one way or the other massive death is coming to the planet- likely prior to 2013.

Besides- can you beleive ANYTHING the media says?   The media has been correct - when?

Alot of people will parish.     Get your house in order.  Get your affairs in order.  Does it really matter whom unleases the doom?????
No.  but it is coming.  Sorry to be a downer.  Here pop some starbucks- go to the mall. 

We blew it- and .....  Now I am rambling.  

Iran is a bigger concern.   Aside from that we NEVER mind our own business.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0U5JfGYx4c    addicted to love


  here is a music video- hope ya feel better.  really.    :-)



KenDckey592 -> RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (6/16/2009 11:26:16 AM)

Holding 3 fingers up   "BIGGER AND BETTER NUKES"   Lets just evaporate everyone then no one wil have them



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (6/16/2009 2:52:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Orion if you are intent on painting North Korea as a 21st century boogie man ala the Soviet Union....feel free to do so.


I am not painting them that way, the International community has said they are threat and used FACTS to show such. Your use of this tactic, shows the weakness of your argument.

quote:


Speaking for myself a land where most of the citizenry are still without indoor plumbing does not keep me up at night.
I am well aware of existing treaties...though in the case of South Korea this is redundant....American forces that would be rolled over during the opening phase of a conflict makes our response self evident.The point I was trying to make and you so blithely keep ignoring is North Korea sans China and/or a newly belligerent Russia could not maintain nor capitalize on any short term gains garnered during the opening days of any conflict..The technological gap is ridiculous....the conversation is silly.


Silly? Then why are so many showing a great concern over it. There is something silly going on, and that is the osterich strategy. Everything would depend on many factors, if there were a military engagement, and more than you seem to take into consideration. Nuclear weapons would not be used, instead you make a push and establish a new boundary. Then others are reluctant to respond because you may use nuclear weapons. The relationwith China and Russia could be pushed to a neutral reaction through diplomats

quote:


Despite all the posturing and bellicose statements they have stayed behind and will remain behind the DMZ for the foreseeable future...to do otherwise accomplishes nothing other than expose the weakness's inherent in their society.


I am glad your crystal ball works so well, maybe you should let the UN borrow it. Instead it seems prudent to plan for the worst, and then hope for the best. It is a much better strategy than the osterich one.



pahunkboy -> RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (6/19/2009 5:12:08 AM)


There will always be a boogieman.


...with Iran- the religion wont go with the new world order- usuary interest rates.  to be specific.    the Koreans -there is a chance to corrupt them.   so- they will fall into the goals of the NWO.

Most likely we did piss them off.    But then- we do everybody.....

The TV zombie machine- take it to the street and smash it.


It is nothing more then a tool to control the masses.     ...ponder that...



Loki45 -> RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (6/19/2009 10:10:40 AM)

Anyone heard the latest? I heard on the news....last night I think that Japanese Intelligence said that NK had a missle with a nuke that had a 4,000 mile range that it was planning to launch toward Hawaii in the first week of July.....sort of a test I guess, since Hawaii is about 4,500 miles away, that means the missle will fall about 500 miles short. BUt they still deployed the anti-missile system to Hawaii anyway.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (6/19/2009 2:28:42 PM)

I read that story as well as their ICBM train that NK has was seen moving something. But they need these launches and studies to perfect their delivery systems. I figure most people will just use the Osterich strategy until the news reads "North Korea has perfected an ICBM that can reach anywhere on the globe, and now have multiple nuclear warheads."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

Anyone heard the latest? I heard on the news....last night I think that Japanese Intelligence said that NK had a missle with a nuke that had a 4,000 mile range that it was planning to launch toward Hawaii in the first week of July.....sort of a test I guess, since Hawaii is about 4,500 miles away, that means the missle will fall about 500 miles short. BUt they still deployed the anti-missile system to Hawaii anyway.



Loki45 -> RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (6/19/2009 2:34:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
I read that story as well as their ICBM train that NK has was seen moving something. But they need these launches and studies to perfect their delivery systems. I figure most people will just use the Osterich strategy until the news reads "North Korea has perfected an ICBM that can reach anywhere on the globe, and now have multiple nuclear warheads."


That would surely be an interesting story to read. That'd be about the time that I face due west, put one of the fingers on each hand up and say "bring it, bitch."



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Are the People of the West concerned about N. Korea? (6/19/2009 2:47:00 PM)

And this is what I hope public awareness of these issues will avoid. If military action needs to be taken, it needs to be done long before things are perfected by NK. Hopefully China and Russia can do something, but I question their incentives to do so with their new alliance with India, Brazil and possibly Iran. This crazy alliance was predicted on one of the talk shows I watch from time to time, but if I mention the name a mob will form with pitch forks and torches (no it was not Hannity or O'Reily).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

That would surely be an interesting story to read. That'd be about the time that I face due west, put one of the fingers on each hand up and say "bring it, bitch."




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