Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (Full Version)

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CallaFirestormBW -> Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (6/14/2009 9:33:11 AM)

So the foundation of my questions come out of the following quote, taken with permission from another ongoing thread. I will comment with opinions further into the thread, but for now, let me post the discussion piece and my questions.

quote:

"The point people have made about "don't get involved"...well, I see the "butt out" argument, but there's times when it's just necessary, y'know? When someone is obviously in need of help or advice, I'm far from the kind of person who'll stand back and say "someone else's problem, pal". AS I said, but seems to have been joyfully ignored, I'm not some crusader who'll gleefully crash into every playparty or private scene with drugs dogs and start whupping ass. I would never put myself up as that."


1. If you are a person with a complete "butt out" perspective, how do you handle yourself when you see something happening around you that directly contradicts your ethical boundaries?

2. If you are a person with a "step in and make the world a better place" perspective, what role do you see for self-direction, personal responsibility, and individual freedoms in whether or not you step into a situation?

3. For those who -do- feel compelled to act, do you only act in situations where someone actually -comes- to you to request your assistance, or do you also act in situations that you perceive to be requiring intervention, whether or not you are actively -asked- to intervene?

4. For either party, how compelled are you to act either directly or by compelling "regulation" or encouraging development of restrictive laws in situations that do -not- directly affect you or yours, and which do not cause harm to another person or property, yet are -distinctly- morally repugnant to you?

Dame Calla



LovingMistress45 -> RE: Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (6/14/2009 10:25:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

So the foundation of my questions come out of the following quote, taken with permission from another ongoing thread. I will comment with opinions further into the thread, but for now, let me post the discussion piece and my questions.

quote:

"The point people have made about "don't get involved"...well, I see the "butt out" argument, but there's times when it's just necessary, y'know? When someone is obviously in need of help or advice, I'm far from the kind of person who'll stand back and say "someone else's problem, pal". AS I said, but seems to have been joyfully ignored, I'm not some crusader who'll gleefully crash into every playparty or private scene with drugs dogs and start whupping ass. I would never put myself up as that."


1. If you are a person with a complete "butt out" perspective, how do you handle yourself when you see something happening around you that directly contradicts your ethical boundaries? If I felt I shouldn't be involved then I would leave.  However, it would depend on the situation on whether I thought I should butt out or not.

2. If you are a person with a "step in and make the world a better place" perspective, what role do you see for self-direction, personal responsibility, and individual freedoms in whether or not you step into a situation?  I probably lean toward this than the butt out perspective however, I don't have a need to save others.  I will offer my opinion or try to help someone, but I also realize that everyone has to make their own decisions even if they are bad ones.

3. For those who -do- feel compelled to act, do you only act in situations where someone actually -comes- to you to request your assistance, or do you also act in situations that you perceive to be requiring intervention, whether or not you are actively -asked- to intervene? I would be more likely to act if it was requested.  I don't usually offer unsolicted advise, I don't have a need to rescue everyone.  If it is a friend I may offer my perspective even if it is not ask for, but after I offer it, it is up the person what they do with it.

4. For either party, how compelled are you to act either directly or by compelling "regulation" or encouraging development of restrictive laws in situations that do -not- directly affect you or yours, and which do not cause harm to another person or property, yet are -distinctly- morally repugnant to you? Well, the chances of me finding something morally repugnant that does not directly effect me or mine and does not harm another person or property are very small. I can't think of any.  There are things I won't do, that are definantely hard limits, and even some I find gross or disgusting but "morally repugnant"? not likely.  Things that are morally repugnant to me definantly envolve harm to others (people or animals) and tend to be non-consensual in nature.  Other than that I am pretty much a live and let live, to each his own type of person.

Dame Calla



SimplyMichael -> RE: Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (6/14/2009 10:27:50 AM)

I base my choice to intervene on a couple of things.  Is my effort going to actually change anything?  Is this one of those rare circumstances when it doesn't matter if I can't help, I must step in and act?

I walk by homeless people every day and do nothing.  It isn't because I don't care but I don't think my effort would change anything.  I see some submissive woman in a crappy relationship with a jerk, I don't tend to do or say anything because if she could understand my advice, she could see it was a crappy relationship and that the guy is a jerk.  However, if he hauls off and hits her (in a way I found abusive) I would have to step in because that violates MY view of the world.  If a gang is beating up on some old lady and I have no hope of stopping the, I would call 911 first (because that might actually help) but then I would have to go in swinging even knowing I was going to get my ass beat too because it would be the right thing to do.

To put it all in a more clearly scene context, lots of bdsm relationships are abusive and fucked up.  I can't fix that because THEY have to see that they are fucked up.  If someone IS saying no (to the relationship, to contact, to whatever) and the other person is ignoring that, then I feel I have not only the right but the responsibility to step in.  However, if that person is one who I have seen jump right back into a fucked up relationship, at some point I am going to hear them crying wolf and leave them alone till they learn.

I feel in some ways, in a BDSM context, the best I can do for them is point out when I WAS that way, how fucked it and I was, how I worked through it and how frigging happy I am now that most of that crap is behind me. 



leadership527 -> RE: Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (6/14/2009 10:31:32 AM)

Dame Calla:

Over on fetlife a similar discussion came up and someone else described it in a way I thought was very productive. These things are not so much "either/or" things. The picture given was that each of us has two boundaries. Inside the first boundary is all the stuff we're personally good with. Inside the second boundary is all the stuff we are not personally OK with and/or don't understand, but we don't find personally and immediately threatening. Outside that second boundary is where "intervention" happens.

All of us have those two boundaries, the only real question is where they are. For myself, I strive (not always successfully) to be open-minded enough to allow those boundaries to be broad. At the same time, I would like to believe that I have enough integrity to act with the courage of my convictions when the second boundary is crossed.

So accordingly... 4. For either party, how compelled are you to act either directly or by compelling "regulation" or encouraging development of restrictive laws in situations that do -not- directly affect you or yours, and which do not cause harm to another person or property, yet are -distinctly- morally repugnant to you?

100% and I see that as the only thing to do for anyone who has integrity. But I wish to be as accomodating as I can manage. I do not believe that my neighbors are entirely separate from me. That's what living in a "society" is all about in my mind. There are more kinds of "harm" than the immediate type like "you murder my wife". Nope, it's not ok for you to murder your wife either.



DomImus -> RE: Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (6/14/2009 10:31:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
1. If you are a person with a complete "butt out" perspective, how do you handle yourself when you see something happening around you that directly contradicts your ethical boundaries?


Since all of the public play I see is in a monitored environment (and I rarely even attend these things) I just ignore it. Other peoples' ethics are their own and the dungeon monitors are there to ensure that those ethics don't violate the rules of the club. If it's not public play it's none of my business so long as it involves consenting adults. If I had reason or proof  to suspect it did not involve only consenting adults I would contact the appropriate authorities.



Andalusite -> RE: Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (6/14/2009 10:55:40 AM)

I haven't felt the need so far to intervene in others' BDSM lives unless my opinion was directly sought out (on the message boards, by e-mail, or in person). Even when my opinion has been asked, I usually don't expect them to act on it, I assume that they're asking multiple people for their thoughts, and filtering through them to figure out what will actually work best. There are a lot of D/s (especially) and BDSM-oriented relationships that would be abusive if I were in their shoes, but which apparently work really well for the individuals concerned.

I try not to associate/spend time with people who are drug users, or who frequently do things I find unethical. If they ask my advice about a situation in which ethics come into play, I tend to try to put myself in their shoes and offer a couple of suggestions for what I think will work best for them, rather than necessarily what *I* would do. For example, if they are asking my advice about a casual sex situation, or an unwanted pregnancy, what works for me or what I would find personally abhorrent/unethical isn't as relevant as exploring the options that will work for *them*.



Padriag -> RE: Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (6/14/2009 11:39:25 AM)

This pretty much summed up my thoughts on the matter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I base my choice to intervene on a couple of things.  Is my effort going to actually change anything?  Is this one of those rare circumstances when it doesn't matter if I can't help, I must step in and act?

I walk by homeless people every day and do nothing.  It isn't because I don't care but I don't think my effort would change anything.  I see some submissive woman in a crappy relationship with a jerk, I don't tend to do or say anything because if she could understand my advice, she could see it was a crappy relationship and that the guy is a jerk.  However, if he hauls off and hits her (in a way I found abusive) I would have to step in because that violates MY view of the world.  If a gang is beating up on some old lady and I have no hope of stopping the, I would call 911 first (because that might actually help) but then I would have to go in swinging even knowing I was going to get my ass beat too because it would be the right thing to do.

To put it all in a more clearly scene context, lots of bdsm relationships are abusive and fucked up.  I can't fix that because THEY have to see that they are fucked up.  If someone IS saying no (to the relationship, to contact, to whatever) and the other person is ignoring that, then I feel I have not only the right but the responsibility to step in.  However, if that person is one who I have seen jump right back into a fucked up relationship, at some point I am going to hear them crying wolf and leave them alone till they learn.




Apocalypso -> RE: Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (6/14/2009 12:48:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
2. If you are a person with a "step in and make the world a better place" perspective, what role do you see for self-direction, personal responsibility, and individual freedoms in whether or not you step into a situation?


It's imperative for me.  I at least try not to actively interfere against the expressed wishes of an individual.  It's complicated though. Advice I give freely and often unasked for, particuarly to my closest friends.  Actual interference is a lot rarer however.

quote:

3. For those who -do- feel compelled to act, do you only act in situations where someone actually -comes- to you to request your assistance, or do you also act in situations that you perceive to be requiring intervention, whether or not you are actively -asked- to intervene?


The former in general.  Unless it's a situation where time is of the essence- if I see someone being mugged, I'm not going to stop and ask for their permission to step in.

I used to do the latter a lot more than I did now, but a specific incident changed that heavily.  It was a nasty situation, a friend of mine had been raped.  And the rapist was known, and several of us were planning to take matters into our own hands.  She found out and went (entirely justifably) off it at us, and me specifically as the main instigator.  And she blunty pointed out both that people not respecting her individual autonomy was not what she needed.  And that I was selfishly basing my response on what would make me feel better as opposed to what she needed.  And she was right and I was wrong.  That wasn't an easy thing to have to admit at the time, but it was an entirely necessary one I think.  I'm a lot more careful now.

quote:

4. For either party, how compelled are you to act either directly or by compelling "regulation" or encouraging development of restrictive laws in situations that do -not- directly affect you or yours, and which do not cause harm to another person or property, yet are -distinctly- morally repugnant to you?
My initial response was that I don't think anything can be morally repugnant if it doesn't harm anybody.  But, on reflection, it's not that simple for me.  In theory, that's the case for me.  But there are still some things that cause me an emotional reaction against them.  A good example would be that I get really twitchy about the use of Nazi imagery within BDSM.  But I don't actualy think those who do this are morally wrong nor will I try to stop them.  I simply avoid situations where there's a significant chance of that issue arising.



NihilusZero -> RE: Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (6/14/2009 1:04:16 PM)

It's not my place, regardless of any ethical construct, to impose an obstacle to the willing and consensual acts/wants of others who are not, via those acts, infringing on the willing and consensual acts/wants of another.

The only times I would consider stepping in rely on two factors: 1) when the receiver of the acts is obviously not consenting/wanting of them to be happening to him/her, and 2) the degree to which the receiver is inadequately capable of defending him/herself from said acts.



Prinsexx -> RE: Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (6/14/2009 1:19:28 PM)

This seems to me to be a question of social roles and begaviour rather than something that can be reduced to a personal ethic.
So it might be explicable in terms of alruism or bystander behaviour.
Other than that explanation it's just a question of personality.



SteelofUtah -> RE: Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (6/14/2009 1:26:29 PM)

We all speak about these things but how offten do we actually come across them?

I mean in Real Life. How offten do you see BDSM relationships where someone is truely in Danger?

I come across battered wives more offten that anything and I can honestly say I have learned that getting involved in any one that I have has been a furitless path and more than that in one situation got ME arrested.

On these boards we see people post situations that are horrible and abusive, I however point out a few things when I see threads like this. One, The person is posting in anger or hurt or sorrow. Two, The Person is only posting their view of these things. Three, The Person is only posting ONE side of a usually very complex story.

At the Root of most all these issues is a person who is unhappy with a situation but unwilling to repair it. A Person who is not looking for a solution but sympathy.

There is a wise phrase I am offten fond of...No one wants Advice, all are simply seeking Justification to continue being miserable.

My Ethics do not allow me to walk away from someone who asks for help, however if I am not asked I have no course for intervention. We offten see an intervention as friends and loved ones stepping in on a bad situation and saying that they will no longer go on watching these things happen and that of they are not willing to change then they will cut off all ties. People want to believe that an intervention is getting in a helping someone, this is incorrect. A Person must help themselves to make things better. If they are not willing to do that, no matter how much they need it there there is no point in attempting as all it will do is stress the relationship that exists.

I have a rule in recovery, when someone comes to me and seeks help I make it clear, I will take them to meetings, I will go over the steps, I will listen to you every day and whenever needed, but the second you stop trying I will step back and distance myself from them as they will more easily pull me down then I could ever help to lift them up.

If someone in a BDSM relationship needs help I will suggest that they get out and tell them why. I will do it as a friend and as a simple aside. After that I will distance myself from any situation in which they try to lean on me for support on something that they are not willing to do what it takes to fix.

This may seem cold but I have learned that the more people try to help offten times it is the more people that help the behavior to continue. In Short I only got clean from drugs when I had no where else to go where people were trying to help me.

Steel



LafayetteLady -> RE: Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (6/14/2009 6:26:55 PM)

I'm definately not the "butt out" at all costs kind of person.  Different people ask me for my advice, opinion or help on a regular basis, whether they be my friends, my son's friends or simply aquaintences.  I will never turn away a person who needs my help, although I will not allow myself or my family to suffer in order to provide that help.  Most people have answered the questions of the OP within the BDSM context and public play.  I do not go to those types of events, so I can't even begin to opine on it.  I took the question in the more general, worldly sense.

Steel is quite right in saying how abused women often run right back to their abuser.  Likewise, couples whose relationship is just not going to work (without any abuse) will often do the same.  When a situation is abusive, I will do my damndest to try to convince the victim to leave.  When it is simply a bad relationship, I will give advice but not "intervene."  I have told people that if they are going to continue in the situation they are in, I will no longer offer any assistance when things go bad, because they knew it would and went back anyway.

Steel's quote was very accurate.  I know people who are just looking for sympathy.  I do not offer any, rather I tell them bluntly how they put themselves in the situation and now really have no right to complain anymore (yes, I know that is not a surprise to many of you that I could be so blunt).  I distance myself from those people because I can't stand to listen to them bemoan about their life while refusing to change it.

When the situation involves something that is immediately harmful to another, i.e. a person being attacked, or a child being harmed, then I don't even think about what I "should" do, I just do what I know is right.  Yes, I am one of those people who believes that in some small way, I will leave this world a better place.  I know that there are things that I have done in my life that has done just that.  I think that if more people realized that each little thing added up to big changes, we might all be better for it.  For those who think nothing is their concern, I remind them that they are lucky that all of us don't feel that way and someday when they need it, there are people like me who will step up and help them even if they are too ignorant to do it for others.

But again, in the BDSM sense of the question, other than these boards, it isn't something that ever presents itself in my life, so I don't worry about it much.



LaTigresse -> RE: Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (6/14/2009 6:56:51 PM)

I agree with Michael and Padriag.

When dealing with grown adults I've come to the realization that there usually isn't anything I can say or do to change the path they've chosen. I learned a long time ago to avoid giving advice unless it is asked for.

I do not like sticking my nose in other people's business nor do I like other people sticking their noses in my business.



silkncarol -> RE: Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (6/14/2009 7:02:03 PM)

 

I tend to agree with Steel on this......A person has to recognize they're in a bad situation, want out or to change it before i'll jump right in to help.

I have a dear friend who was in an abusive damaging relationship....she recognized it,  we had endless hours of  discussion on the subject, but she was unwilling and unable to extricate herself from the situation.  I realized she enjoyed the drama of it all, nothing would change until she decided she'd had enough.  It hurt my heart she never could see that she deserved so much better than she was accepting from the A'hole.  I finally had to just tell her, i love you, i'm here for you if you need a safe haven and i'll always be your friend but that's it, i'm done.

Sometimes you can't save people from themselves...... 
 



Joseff -> RE: Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (6/14/2009 9:07:49 PM)

I could not possibly say it better than SimplyMichael. The only thing I could add is that there is a point at which I will decide to act. I can't define it, but its there, and when it is reached, I will act.





IrishMist -> RE: Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (6/15/2009 3:56:24 AM)

I do not intervene in anyone's life for any reason unless it's work related; then, I have no choice.

edited to add:

quote:

There is a wise phrase I am offten fond of...No one wants Advice, all are simply seeking Justification to continue being miserable.

My Ethics do not allow me to walk away from someone who asks for help, however if I am not asked I have no course for intervention.

Perfectly stated.



leadership527 -> RE: Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (6/15/2009 4:10:34 AM)

*nods* I have to wonder, Joseff, whether my answer was truly any different than anyone elses. I do have an engineer's brain and so I tend to think of fringe cases. So yeah, of course I mention I would act. Wouldn't anyone truly at SOME point? I suspect the real question is not whether or not someone would act, but just how far that point is. Based upon stated descriptions here, Dame Calla speaks pretty frankly of some of her edge play activities, but I've seen nothing that raises an eyebrow much less would get me excited enough to want to call cops, pass laws, etc. Even when I was brand new to all this and so discussions about "blood spatters and tarps" made me cringe, it never once occurred to me that legislation was needed.

In fact, about the only thing I have ever read on Collarme that truly made me think, "I would interfere if I saw that" was discussion about "Spinal Tap Play". Assuming that was literal (which it may well not be - knife play doesn't mean gutting someone with a bowie knife), if I saw a non-medical professional pushing stuff into someone's spine in a non-sterile environment, I would at a bare minimum, have a bunch of questions -- I'd interfere.

So there you go... My line drawn from a real collarme post as opposed to my standard "barbecuing babiesin your backyard" example. No highly risky medical procedures by untrained people in unsterile environments. If that line makes me a conservative busy body, I'm fine with that.



Andalusite -> RE: Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (6/15/2009 8:56:01 AM)

I'd assume that "Spinal Tap play" had to do with the band/music. [&o]



IronBear -> RE: Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (6/15/2009 9:27:53 AM)

Real Life scenarios within the BDSM scene, I will take note of what is happening, who is involved and the time and place just incase a witness statement is necessary. If it is in a dungeon situation, I will if worried, seek advise of the Duty Dungeon Monitor or someone who has better knowledge of the scene and people involved. I can if necessary let those involved when applicable, know I am available for counselling (assuming what happens is simply due to a mistake). I don't have to like what I see, but then it is not my scene and I have no right to act in an all knowing manner and start tossing my weight about in a high handed manner.

Generally I agree that people in a bad relationship have to want things to change. Police prior to law being enacted to stop spousal abuse, can tell many stories when they tried to intervien only to be abused by the abused spouse. Like most counsellors, all any of us can do for someone who is being abused is to be a good listener and allow that person to bounce their ideas off us which often allows them to formulate their own decisions. Someone however asking for help is a whole different story.



sweetsub1957 -> RE: Getting Involved -- On Ethics and Intervention in Lifestyle Practices (6/15/2009 11:03:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

So the foundation of my questions come out of the following quote, taken with permission from another ongoing thread. I will comment with opinions further into the thread, but for now, let me post the discussion piece and my questions.

quote:

"The point people have made about "don't get involved"...well, I see the "butt out" argument, but there's times when it's just necessary, y'know? When someone is obviously in need of help or advice, I'm far from the kind of person who'll stand back and say "someone else's problem, pal". AS I said, but seems to have been joyfully ignored, I'm not some crusader who'll gleefully crash into every playparty or private scene with drugs dogs and start whupping ass. I would never put myself up as that."


1. If you are a person with a complete "butt out" perspective, how do you handle yourself when you see something happening around you that directly contradicts your ethical boundaries?
i don't have a completely "butt out" perspective, but unless i see it as abusive, i normally do nothing because it may be between consenting adults with both of T/them consenting to the behavior.

2. If you are a person with a "step in and make the world a better place" perspective, what role do you see for self-direction, personal responsibility, and individual freedoms in whether or not you step into a situation?
If i do "step in" in an abusive situation, i do so very carefully so as not to get hurt myself, and i try to, away from the "seeming abuser," reason with the "seemingly abused" and let her/him know why i feel it's abusive.....and offer ideas that i see as options to get away from the abuse, knowing full well that i might be ignored.

3. For those who -do- feel compelled to act, do you only act in situations where someone actually -comes- to you to request your assistance, or do you also act in situations that you perceive to be requiring intervention, whether or not you are actively -asked- to intervene?
If someone comes to me and asks for assistance i may help them or if i see something as outright abuse, i will attempt to offer help to the recipient of seeming abuse.  Otherwise, things that are just morally repugnant to me are none of my business.......my morals are not necessarily anyone else's.

4. For either party, how compelled are you to act either directly or by compelling "regulation" or encouraging development of restrictive laws in situations that do -not- directly affect you or yours, and which do not cause harm to another person or property, yet are -distinctly- morally repugnant to you?
It's not my business to legislate morality.  If it were, some laws would be very different than they are.

Dame Calla



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