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A not-so-hypothetical - 6/18/2009 7:10:11 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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Status: offline 		Let's say I've made some gear/fashion design/etc.

Let's say, while I made it, I was in a long-term committed relationship with someone, who cheerfully modeled some of this gear for the camera.

Let's say this person now wants utterly nothing to do with me, the lifestyle, etc., and have demanded that I remove all images that might have been them, regardless of whether they are identifiable or not.

Let's say it's somewhat likely that, when they moved out, they took all the photography consent forms with them.

I'm screwed, aren't I?
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RE: A not-so-hypothetical - 6/18/2009 7:15:40 PM   
Asherdelampyr


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Status: offline 		Yes, indeed you are
you have 2 options,
1: Remove the images
2: Brazen it out and hope to god she doesnt sue, since she has all the proof that you would need to win your case, and something tells me she may just not want to bring it to court with her


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RE: A not-so-hypothetical - 6/18/2009 7:22:18 PM   
SteelofUtah


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Status: offline 		If you cannot prove you have right to content and it is of a Pornographic or could be considered pornographic content....

And now pay attention cause this is your Que Kicker.

... And you are MAKEING MONEY from the images or they are used in association with the ability to make money.

Then Yes, you are Screwed and you need to take them down.

HOWEVER if you are not making money from them and you have the images which can be PROVEN to have been saved from the Camera itself or a Memory Card then the consent releases do not matter, as you can prove you took the pictures or at least had access to the camera the images were taken from and all she can do is ask you to take them down. Only a court order could force you to, again as long as you are not making money from them, however most courts would not take the case unless you were using the images to Slander her or make money off her likeness.

if you don't want to play this game better to just take down the images.

Steel

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RE: A not-so-hypothetical - 6/18/2009 7:22:43 PM   
NihilusZero


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Status: offline 		Not really. Depending on how "mature" the content of the images might be construed to be, you may have a problem if you intend to 'publish' said images and are without any filed 2257 information so as to verify age of consent.

However, from numerous discussions of the topic back on my photography forum days, such images, even without the model releases (which are usually only a fail-safe), so long as the apparent intent of the images suggests it, the images can be (and, to my recollection based on legal precedent) presumed to have an 'implied release'.

What you are essentially fighting would be a case of violation of privacy which, in obviously posed shots intended to sell clothing or accessories, is not the case.

Many photographers who face this issue, particularly the ones who do it professionally, yield to the demand/requests because it is economically advisable (based on how it would look if they didn't and how it would affect future income). However, the onus is still on her to actually present a sustainable argument of violation of privacy that a lawyer would actually find legally viable.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 6/18/2009 7:24:00 PM >

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RE: A not-so-hypothetical - 6/18/2009 7:26:04 PM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		I'd say you're screwed at least on a moral level.

Be a nice guy and remove the photos.

I'm sure you'd have no problems finding another model.

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RE: A not-so-hypothetical - 6/18/2009 7:45:53 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I'd say you're screwed at least on a moral level.

Be a nice guy and remove the photos.

See...I don't necessarily go along the line of thinking that yielding to a ridiculous and spiteful demand is required to be a 'nice guy'.


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RE: A not-so-hypothetical - 6/18/2009 7:47:36 PM   
Asherdelampyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I'd say you're screwed at least on a moral level.

Be a nice guy and remove the photos.

I'm sure you'd have no problems finding another model.



what moral level? She agreed to the photos, and now wants to change her mind, for all we know she just wants to change her mind to be bitchy
I do not know that we have enough info to question anyones morality here


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RE: A not-so-hypothetical - 6/18/2009 7:48:04 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

See...I don't necessarily go along the line of thinking that yielding to a ridiculous and spiteful demand is required to be a 'nice guy'.



Spiteful or no, that isn't really for me to judge. She says that the sight of her tied up is incredibly painful for her... what the hell can I do? I still love her.

So, pictures are down. I have no idea how to acquire new models, but I suppose it's time to find out.

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RE: A not-so-hypothetical - 6/18/2009 7:48:35 PM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		Spiteful? I don't see anything spiteful about it. They broke up. She no longer wants any part of him. His having the pics means there's still a part of her with him...and personally if it was me...it would be very strange to me that my ex would even want to keep such pics of me. Why would you want to be reminded of a relationship that obviously ended on a very terrible note?

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RE: A not-so-hypothetical - 6/18/2009 7:51:29 PM   
Asherdelampyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

See...I don't necessarily go along the line of thinking that yielding to a ridiculous and spiteful demand is required to be a 'nice guy'.



Spiteful or no, that isn't really for me to judge. She says that the sight of her tied up is incredibly painful for her... what the hell can I do? I still love her.

So, pictures are down. I have no idea how to acquire new models, but I suppose it's time to find out.


Seriously Try craigslist
it seems to be the Wal-mart of the internet nowadays :D

wonder, I think the chasm here is that one is a business transaction, while the other is personal. I have modeled a few times before and once for a very close friend that I think I am supposed to be hating now, I dont mind that he still has the pics on his site, or in his protfolio because I considered it a business transaction


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RE: A not-so-hypothetical - 6/18/2009 7:52:47 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Spiteful? I don't see anything spiteful about it. They broke up. She no longer wants any part of him. His having the pics means there's still a part of her with him...and personally if it was me...it would be very strange to me that my ex would even want to keep such pics of me. Why would you want to be reminded of a relationship that obviously ended on a very terrible note?



In this case, because they're the only evidence that I have that I made the dresses, boots, armbinders, corsets, etc. They're my portfolio - they're the only thing that distinguish me from someone leching on some model, saying "hey baby let's do a shoot". They're my proof that I'm actually a creative and resourceful person.

Honestly, this is nothing about my ex; I'd much rather not have her in those pictures - it's a bit painful for me to look at them, too. But they're all I have left to show that I can do some bad-ass design work, that I can do bad-ass rope suspension rigging, that I can do bad-ass high-production-value scenes.

I understand that she doesn't want to be a part of that anymore, and I respect that. But I do want to be a part of that. And this is all I have for credentials.

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RE: A not-so-hypothetical - 6/18/2009 7:54:40 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Spiteful? I don't see anything spiteful about it. They broke up. She no longer wants any part of him. His having the pics means there's still a part of her with him...and personally if it was me...it would be very strange to me that my ex would even want to keep such pics of me. Why would you want to be reminded of a relationship that obviously ended on a very terrible note?


Candid personal imagery is one thing. And even the arguments with that "there's still a part of her with him" make no sense...unless people like being in denial about the relationships they've had. If someone really has that sort of concept about past relationships, then they should requires mutual lobodomies in the event of a bad breakup to supress those memories so they can pretend it never happened.

But...the point here is not about personal photos. We're talking about images that were shot with the intent of having them used publicly for advertising purposes. To that extent, it doesn't matter if she is an ex or just a former model with a new axe to grind.

It will still follow legally along state civil codes and laws...which I've admittedly had a tough time just now getting for Arizona. At very least, checking out the legal precedent for similar cases in the state might yield informative results.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 6/18/2009 7:55:00 PM >

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RE: A not-so-hypothetical - 6/18/2009 7:54:47 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr
Seriously Try craigslist
it seems to be the Wal-mart of the internet nowadays :D

wonder, I think the chasm here is that one is a business transaction, while the other is personal. I have modeled a few times before and once for a very close friend that I think I am supposed to be hating now, I dont mind that he still has the pics on his site, or in his protfolio because I considered it a business transaction



Funny enough... someone poked at me, having seen the original photographs, and asked me if they could be my photographer if they brought the models. So there's the answer from both sides - both why it's important for me to have kept the pictures, and how I resolve the problem amicably.

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RE: A not-so-hypothetical - 6/18/2009 7:55:57 PM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		I have this feeling this wasn't a business transaction but personal..he was dating her, she modeled his stuff like one would model lingerie in the bedroom for their husband. He took the pics. Relationship ended..badly. She left him and bdsm behind her..far behind her. She no longer wishes to be reminded of him or bdsm but he still loves her and doesn't want to give up on her even though she's moved on...plus the pics are what he thinks..a good business move...

am I about right on that Ialdabaoth?

But hey...if I were a guy I'd be a gentleman and remove the pics because that's what being a gentleman is all about..taking the higher road.


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RE: A not-so-hypothetical - 6/18/2009 7:57:41 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

So, pictures are down. I have no idea how to acquire new models, but I suppose it's time to find out.

Well, shit dude! If that's the only problem you're having, I could point you in the right direction.

And, while the tone of my responses elsewhere may be neutrally cold, it wasn't meant to provide intentionally abrasive advice. If you still care enough to not want to enable a process that would be tormenting to her, then you already had your answer (slacker! ).


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RE: A not-so-hypothetical - 6/18/2009 7:59:25 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I have this feeling this wasn't a business transaction but personal..he was dating her, she modeled his stuff like one would model lingerie in the bedroom for their husband. He took the pics. Relationship ended..badly. She left him and bdsm behind her..far behind her. She no longer wishes to be reminded of him or bdsm but he still loves her and doesn't want to give up on her even though she's moved on...plus the pics are what he thinks..a good business move...

am I about right on that Ialdabaoth?


Sort-of, it's far more complicated than that. The dress was built for a "Fetish Prom" competition, which we won; there are hundreds of pictures of that dress floating about. She actually still has one as one of her LiveJournal avatars. The understanding - from the beginning - was that she was modelling for me, and that she was going to be a model (and, she hoped, maybe a little famous for it).

She doesn't want any of that, now.

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RE: A not-so-hypothetical - 6/18/2009 8:00:02 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Spiteful or no, that isn't really for me to judge. She says that the sight of her tied up is incredibly painful for her... what the hell can I do? I still love her.

So, pictures are down. I have no idea how to acquire new models, but I suppose it's time to find out.


I'm sorry you are hurting.  I assume the break up is still pretty fresh.  In time, you will feel better and move on.  Taking down the pictures was the right thing to do.  It sounds as if all the photos and such took place as part of the relationship, and as she told you it causes her pain.  I would think that since you still have feelings for her, it would not be the best thing for you in the way of helping you to move on either.

This wasn't a situation of you getting into some kind of "pissing match" over the right to post the photos or not.  You did the right thing by taking them down from the standpoint of what is probably best for both you and her.

I hope that you feel better soon.  As for finding new models, I believe that I have seen on various sites people post as part of their profiles that they are looking for people to model for them for one reason or another.  Perhaps in the future to avoid the situation you were just in, using people that are modeling just for the sake of modeling will be best.

Good luck.

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RE: A not-so-hypothetical - 6/18/2009 8:01:51 PM   
Asherdelampyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I have this feeling this wasn't a business transaction but personal..he was dating her, she modeled his stuff like one would model lingerie in the bedroom for their husband. He took the pics. Relationship ended..badly. She left him and bdsm behind her..far behind her. She no longer wishes to be reminded of him or bdsm but he still loves her and doesn't want to give up on her even though she's moved on...plus the pics are what he thinks..a good business move...

am I about right on that Ialdabaoth?

But hey...if I were a guy I'd be a gentleman and remove the pics because that's what being a gentleman is all about..taking the higher road.




Ok, and I took it as something closer to an experience I had with an ex, where I took pictures of her wearing the chainmaille designs I had made, not as a personal thing, but because she had modeling exp and a figure that was ideal to show off my bellydancing designs. We divorced years ago and the only reason I dont have the pictures now (Which I used to advertise my wrok as most of it is custom/commision work) is becasue I had a basement flood on me that destroyed them :)

Just two different takes :D


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RE: A not-so-hypothetical - 6/18/2009 8:02:58 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

So, pictures are down. I have no idea how to acquire new models, but I suppose it's time to find out.

Well, shit dude! If that's the only problem you're having, I could point you in the right direction.


You're the second person to offer this, and hell yes I'll take you both up on it. :) email me.

quote:


And, while the tone of my responses elsewhere may be neutrally cold, it wasn't meant to provide intentionally abrasive advice. If you still care enough to not want to enable a process that would be tormenting to her, then you already had your answer (slacker! ).



The process is still evolving. ;) When I first posted this, she hadn't expressed why she needed them taken down; in between my first reply and my second, she clarified that it hurt her to remember belonging to me, and she was also concerned that it might get back to other people that she had once done fetish modeling.

I'm not about to make anyone that uncomfortable, let alone someone I shared my life with for over half a decade, so down they've come.

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RE: A not-so-hypothetical - 6/18/2009 8:08:18 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

You're the second person to offer this, and hell yes I'll take you both up on it. :) email me.

Sweet. Lemme find the time to get off my lazy butt and to the desktop (I'm partially blaming a recently rolled ankle on my slow-motion action) and I'll send you something thorough.

Arizona is a bit thin in the 'folks i personally know' department (at least related to fetish fashion) but I'm sure we can figure out something that will work...and I doubt it would even be that hard.


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