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RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of hum... - 6/23/2009 3:52:54 PM   
JonnieBoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I know I will be torched for this...but...you should not need to accept every single cultural idiosyncrasy of immigrants to your country.

If you…through your elected officials decide that a form of dress will not be allowed in your country then those that demand to wear it should turn around and go back home.

I understand this sounds harsh and petty but too bad… I believe people have a right to protect and preserve their own culture. Those entering your country and taking advantage of your form of government and benefits should abide by your mores and laws or just don’t come.

Butch



I couldn't agree more, well except the bit about not allowing dresses , that bit might spoil the scenery.

Pirate

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RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of hum... - 6/23/2009 4:01:21 PM   
JonnieBoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
When in Rome ask for fish and chips in an increasingly loud english accent'.


That's a proud piece of English cultural heritage your'e lampooning there, personally I think it should be included as part of the British immigration test me....

(I'm really only saying that because it will be hysterical watching Greedy practise THAT in front of a mirror .)

Pirate


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RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of hum... - 6/23/2009 4:04:18 PM   
Vendaval


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

....3 and 6 are in conflict. On the one hand you suggest the equivilant of 'when in Rome...', then you suggest 'When in Rome ask for fish and chips in an increasingly loud english accent'.



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RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of hum... - 6/23/2009 4:27:14 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

..ok, let's just take your apparent question head on....

"what i am asking is why if we believe these ideals are good enough for ourselves we do not attempt to apply them to others"

...because applying to them to other cultures assumes that we are correct. You are conflating the idea of believing oneself correct with actually being correct.

In some cases, genital mutilation for instance, it is simply wrong. No one should be mutilated for cultural purposes without their informed consent as an adult. It doesn't matter if its cutting off the clitoris in East Africa or binding girls feet in China or a bris in Brooklyn.

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RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of hum... - 6/23/2009 4:34:22 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

..ok, let's just take your apparent question head on....

"what i am asking is why if we believe these ideals are good enough for ourselves we do not attempt to apply them to others"

...because applying to them to other cultures assumes that we are correct. You are conflating the idea of believing oneself correct with actually being correct.

In some cases, genital mutilation for instance, it is simply wrong. No one should be mutilated for cultural purposes without their informed consent as an adult. It doesn't matter if its cutting off the clitoris in East Africa or binding girls feet in China or a bris in Brooklyn.



...oh don't get me wrong. i'm not saying that believing yourself to be correct means you're wrong. Just that it doesn't guarantee you are actually correct. Now, the example you give is one where i think we'd both agree. The tricky problem is how to stop it. Easy enough to do so in our own countries......but how do we impose what is essentially a moral decision on a third party country? The OP seems to favour force.....personally i think we can employ far more subtle ways.

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RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of hum... - 6/23/2009 4:45:47 PM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		Force wouldn't stop it. Thinking force would do anything but drive it underground and provide a rallying cry for the reactionaries is stupid.

What has to happen is education and empowerment.

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RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of hum... - 6/23/2009 5:14:28 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		The "common good" is determined by society. Individual morals and ethics are heavily influenced by the societies we grow up in, as well as the family we grow up in. I do not believe in inalienable rights. Most things are actually privileges protected by the state anyway, and the state determines when they can be taken away.

Cultures have different morals, not necessarily better or worse, just different.

One could argue a society that no longer must strive for liberty, will no longer value it.


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RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of hum... - 6/23/2009 5:15:07 PM   
Louve00


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Status: offline 		I think that while we, as a country maybe, for some things, or even as a group or general consensus of multiple countries have accepted certain things as a moral and equal right of humanity.   And there are other countries, in other parts of the world, that think very differently....believe very differently (no matter how silly, superstitious, unfounded, or unscientific, aside from morally and ethically right or wrong it seems to us it is).  While we think circumcision, any kind of body mutilation, even scriligeous death is abhorable, other countries can't understand why we think that is. 

Do we have a right to insist and impose our beliefs onto these other cultures, as much as these other cultures have the right to impose their beliefs (which I'm sure they believe to be as sound and true as we believe our beliefs to be) onto us?  Our country, and countries like ours, are logical, set out to prove things scientifically, and feel right and just in our morals.  We believe in fighting for whats right and just.  But whats right and just for us, may not be right and just for everyone.  To consider that and accept it as fact broadens our mind (imho).

While I believe, stand strong and true to my values and beliefs...and no one (usually) can veer me from them, I do realize they are memes that have been embedded in my own upbringing and being.  But those other cultures have their own memes.  Good luck for either of any culture in enforcing them on those that don't live by them.

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RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of hum... - 6/23/2009 9:47:57 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
And what is your culture made of, exactly  ?


People who don't live under an archaic set of laws like sharia, how about you answer my question now.

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RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of hum... - 6/23/2009 9:51:01 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
So you think the early settlers should have done this then...Somehow I doubt you do.


But the early settlers didn't want to remain the same, hence to move to the new world.

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RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of hum... - 6/23/2009 10:22:50 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Freedom of thought and speech are only defensible when the right kind of people use them  .



         You sound like such a fascist sometimes, Kitten. 

         

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RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of hum... - 6/24/2009 4:36:19 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
So you think the early settlers should have done this then...Somehow I doubt you do.


But the early settlers didn't want to remain the same, hence to move to the new world.



Hence presumably also the migration of many back to England in the 1640s to fight the Civil War, and over 150 years of evolving a culture only slightly at variance with that of England due to the distance involved inhibiting communications somewhat, prior to an Independence almost entirely informed by the cultural traditions of England?

E

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RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of hum... - 6/24/2009 9:51:07 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
So you think the early settlers should have done this then...Somehow I doubt you do.


But the early settlers didn't want to remain the same, hence to move to the new world.



You said they should assimilate with the existing culture, which they had no intention of doing. So your original comment seems a tad hypocritical dont you think ?

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of hum... - 6/24/2009 4:20:51 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
You said they should assimilate with the existing culture, which they had no intention of doing. So your original comment seems a tad hypocritical dont you think ?


No, the settlers lived like and shared more with the natives than they did with England

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of hum... - 6/24/2009 4:27:06 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
You said they should assimilate with the existing culture, which they had no intention of doing. So your original comment seems a tad hypocritical dont you think ?


No, the settlers lived like and shared more with the natives than they did with England



Indeed, thats why most of you speak English and not a Native language Rob. How on earth did I forget that the settlers built forts so they could hold parties at the weekends while sharing a beer.

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RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of hum... - 6/24/2009 5:35:58 PM   
beargonewild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

But that's the contradiction Ellen that I wanted to debate. On the one hand our society states that all are born with the same inherent value while on the other hand it states that that particular ideal is justifiably thrown out of the window once one passes our own borders. In my opinion a society can not believe that all are born equal... unless you live in Darfur, as that is hypocritical and self defeating.  I am n ot saying our way of life is perfect, it is not quite obviously so however if you choose to live by it's ideals then surely you have an obligation to uphold them and if not why not? That's what I wanted to debate.


Yet a person also has to take into consideration that in each country, that society has evolved to what it is now. It is during that evolution nation which gave rise to their distinct political system, religious values etc. We who do not live in their countries are merely basing our opinions and morality on them strictly based from our own experiences from our own society.

edited for clairty


< Message edited by beargonewild -- 6/24/2009 5:38:58 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of hum... - 6/24/2009 5:39:53 PM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		 Precisely bear so in that case one has to be prepared to impose [or attempt to] one's beliefs on culture's which may reject them or accept that not all are born equal. Surely all are born equal as long as they are born in our society is an oxymoron?

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of hum... - 6/24/2009 5:58:50 PM   
beargonewild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Precisely bear so in that case one has to be prepared to impose [or attempt to] one's beliefs on culture's which may reject them or accept that not all are born equal. Surely all are born equal as long as they are born in our society is an oxymoron?


It's my thoughts that I do not need to impose my beliefs on another culture nor should they impose theirs onto me. It makes more sense to me to accept the fact that many cultures have beliefs alien to my way of thinking even if I don't understand that belief.
How I see it, it is only an oxymoron when we try to force our beliefs on a culture different from what I was born in. A perfect example is the Jewish tradition of circumcising. I may not believe that is right based on the fact that I was not raised in the Jewish faith thus I have no concept of their religious and moral reasoning for that ritual. I accept that circumcision in the Jewish community is part of their faith thus no oxymoron. Yet if I condemn any and every Jewish person for continuing that practice then I am imposing my beliefs in them and that is where the oxymoron comes into play.


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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of hum... - 6/24/2009 6:04:00 PM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		 I understand that viewpoint on it's own bear but not if you also hold the ideal that all are born with the same value. If you believe that then practices that you believe to be wrong being perpetrated against children surely becomes unacceptable? If one doesn't as they belong to a different culture then is that not a dereliction of those you believe deserve the same as what you enjoy? Is it as I suspect simply geography that decides the value of someone in our society?

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of hum... - 6/25/2009 4:37:02 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		The same inherent value and right to life at birth - at which point (following the general reasoning here) each person is a tabula rasa - means that we can only judge that value and that right according to that which is shared by all infants regardless of geography or culture. Once the socialisation process begins and the child interacts with the world then it is no longer possible or useful to compare value and rights for persons in other places and cultures according to the measure provided by our place and culture.

This means we can only value based on potential - which in theory is the same for all infants. And it means that the only right we can discern is the right to make the best life possible within the prevailing circumstances. In this case, given the impossibility of oversight and control of the life of every infant, it is for the infant and his/her parents and extended family to help the child to reach potential and make the best life possible - something which will be heavily influenced by what the adults see as worthwhile and their culture sees as a good life within their circumstances.

Since we cannot know every interaction that occurs in a child's formation, (including the adults that are now the parents of the child) it is difficult at best to make a value judgement on the adult that results in any case, let alone by comparison to our very different environment.

Thus it is that the best we can do is to respect the differences between our culture and others, whilst noting too those aspects which we find abhorrent or foolish - the same as other cultures will do in respect of ours. And noting most importantly that individuals even within a culture vary enormously and are therefore not equal once a few years into childhood let alone at adulthood, making it difficult to lump all together in one cultural group for judgement. As for cultures in general in this respect, the only judgement we might make is whether the culture provides the best environment for each child to reach potential and achieve a good life - but again here it is not satisfactory since we will judge according to what we feel is correct.

E

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