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RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 2:04:31 AM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits

Because when you do it, you twist my words around. Because your phrasing is smarmy, arrogant and repulsive - and you actually think it will impress me (or someone).


Actually, I don't think anyone is trying to being smarmy or arrogant... and 'repulsuve' is a subjective judgement on your side. Please don't judge people just because they sound smart - it doesn't mean they're trying to make you sound dumb!

quote:

You also don't say anything except that if someone likes it it's fine - over and over again, with subtitles and Eastern Europeans who no doubt also say that if someone likes it, it's fine.


I'm not sure about the "Eastern European" thing, but... the thing is, we all have different ideas that inform our moral compass. You know? And plenty of people have been burned enough by concepts like "sanity" and "there are some things that are just wrong to want", that they become very nervous about applying those ideas to anything. So they come up with other moral systems, moral systems that don't rely on "sanity".

You know, there was a movie recently, called "What the !@($ do we know?" - and while most of it was just plain awful, there were one or two things in it that were really useful.

One of those things was a flat-out amazing definition of addiction.

Addiction is any desire that you no longer have control over. It is any desire - whether it is for drugs, or for sex, or for money, or for "normalcy", or for respect, or for getting the last word in a debate - that so overwhelms you, that you start sacrificing other things that you rationally know you desire more, but you just can't seem to motivate yourself to protect against the irrationally stronger desire of the addiction.

quote:

I don't care how many ways you say it. I don't find your word games clever or inspiring. They make me angry.


Is it possible that you have an emotional reaction somewhere to these sorts of debates? Or to people using too many abstract concepts? You seem to want everything very down-to-earth, simple, and "common sense" intuitive - does it bother you when people try to abstract things?

< Message edited by Ialdabaoth -- 7/2/2009 2:07:09 AM >

(in reply to Sarahsubmits)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 2:05:55 AM   
Sarahsubmits


Posts: 37
Joined: 7/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Is it crazy to hire a surrogate?

What's most amusing about these kinds of exchanges is that everything you've posted is there for anyone, including yourself, to read & re-read & make their own interpretations of . .. . .

I'm still waiting for the answers to my original set of questions: how do you know that either the vampire fetishist of the OP, or the impregnation fetishist who upset you so in email, are actually (a) female, (b) serious about what they want rather than fantasists yanking your chain for effect (which you're giving in spades, please note), or (c) incapable of consent? How do you know that either is impaired & cannot give consent? You've shared your opinion, but you've offered no evidence other than your opinion.

& essentially your opinion has been that these things are obviously crazy & thus evidence of impaired ability to consent. There has not been a chorus of people agreeing with you here, so you've said we're all crazy & abusive enablers . . . .

You've blown off what you don't want to answer in all of these exchanges; if you're trying to persuade others of your case, twisting others words, ignoring feedback, & refusing to answer direct questions isn't helping.

If you can't take responsibility for what you say, & for how your words are perceived, I bet this isn't the only place where you have trouble communicating . . . . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits

She wants me to be the one who gets pregnant for her master, because she is desperate to please him. Yes, that is crazy to ask someone.

If you can't read clearly what was said, then it is your problem and not mine. You did finally get it right though. Some people are impaired. While they are impaired, their consent is not really consent at all.




Honestly no, The OP clearly got it. Those who saw what he said - all older, and more experienced submissive women, I noticed - and that's big, (ya know?) - got it.

And I was not talking at you, I said my piece and then got lectured by you - in smarmy condescending ways, and ways that refuse to see what I said, or that twisted what I said in insulting ways. It's utterly childish.

I would not let a child spank me.

Like I said, I have learned what sorts to avoid.

And please let me add this question as an edit?

What kind of woman tells another woman that she has known, for maybe half an hour, on the internet such a thing if she were not having some issues. The fact that the first thing you thought of was surrogate motherhood rather than, OMG ick! makes me wonder if you aren't one of those male profile's with a woman's picture.




< Message edited by Sarahsubmits -- 7/2/2009 2:14:37 AM >

(in reply to DemonKia)
Profile   Post #: 182
RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 2:10:02 AM   
variation30


Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits

Because when you do it, you twist my words around.


I've always found reductio ad absurdum's to be especially pernicious.

quote:

Because your phrasing is smarmy, arrogant and repulsive - and you actually think it will impress me (or someone).


I prefer to view my phrasing as trenchant.

and if I wanted to impress you I would simply agree with your emotive arguments and argue against statements similar to mine by utilizing pathos and appeals to authority. and although you are a very attractive (and well-meaning, I'm sure) young woman, I've had enough of using pathos, appeals to authority, and circular logic to get a's in my psych courses...and I have another few years of doing such while I work for the public sector...so I think I'll avoid such self-destructive behavior in the present.

quote:

You also don't say anything except that if someone likes it it's fine - over and over again, with subtitles and Eastern Europeans who no doubt also say that if someone likes it, it's fine.


I know a lot of Western Europeans (even as far back as the school of salamanca) and Americans who say the same thing.

quote:

You haven't proved anything except that you think that debating about people's lives and well being is a sport - which shows how much you actually care about them.


I care enough to try and have a public dialogue (not as much for your sake or for mine but for the sake of the lurkers who are reading this thread) that dissuades one from the position of the petty armchair tyrant.

quote:

I would not let you within two hundred feet of me as a partner.


and I'm usually not much of a fan of long distance relationships. I guess it wasn't meant to be.


_____________________________

all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

(in reply to Sarahsubmits)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 2:16:32 AM   
Sarahsubmits


Posts: 37
Joined: 7/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


One of those things was a flat-out amazing definition of addiction.

Addiction is any desire that you no longer have control over. It is any desire - whether it is for drugs, or for sex, or for money, or for "normalcy", or for respect, or for getting the last word in a debate - that so overwhelms you, that you start sacrificing other things that you rationally know you desire more, but you just can't seem to motivate yourself to protect against the irrationally stronger desire of the addiction.




That's a great definition. So if someone meets that definition their ability to consent is messed up right?

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 184
RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 2:22:27 AM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


One of those things was a flat-out amazing definition of addiction.

Addiction is any desire that you no longer have control over. It is any desire - whether it is for drugs, or for sex, or for money, or for "normalcy", or for respect, or for getting the last word in a debate - that so overwhelms you, that you start sacrificing other things that you rationally know you desire more, but you just can't seem to motivate yourself to protect against the irrationally stronger desire of the addiction.




That's a great definition. So if someone meets that definition their ability to consent is messed up right?


Well, the thing is, EVERYONE meets that definition to some extent or another. A perfect example: When I'm really hungry, my blood sugar goes down, and I lose my ability to think as clearly. Everything else sort of fades to the background, and I'll seriously over-value food.

Have you ever heard the phrase "never shop on an empty stomach?" - it's true; you wind up buying a lot of food that you don't need.

Does that mean that you shouldn't legally be held responsible for purchases made at the grocery store, while hungry? Does it mean we should keep hungry people from coming to the store, or chaperon them while they're shopping to make sure they don't overspend? Of course not.

The deal is, it's all shades of gray. And no-one can really say for sure how bad something is, except the person inside - and hell, sometimes not even then.

Life is incredibly messy, and people make all sorts of mistakes. Hell, most of the time we don't even know what were the right decisions and what were the mistakes until years afterwords. It's hard enough figuring out what's right and wrong for our own lives; trying to figure out what's right and wrong for other peoples' is just downright scary. The best we can do is love them, try to counsel them, and yeah - sometimes intervene when we think that our sense of right and wrong is preferable to theirs. But that never means we're "more right" then them, it just means we think we are, in that moment.


(in reply to Sarahsubmits)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 2:43:30 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Hello Sarah, first - welcome to CM.
 
Can I suggest you ignore the idea of consent?  You stated that you are new to this, so one of the first things that tends to happen is that you can get caught up in the whole SSC mantra.  The whole discussion about consent gets a bit hazy when it comes to addiction.  You do consent and at the same time you don't.  So I am really sure that this is a bit of a misleading word to use when discussing such things.
 
I would like to know how you define 'older, more experienced submissives'.  How old is old?  How much expereince is experience?  Because I don't 'get it'.  I think that the OP has good intentions, but doesn't see the danger off his own 'addiction'.  I don't believe you can see the issue with the iro ny of his post.
 
The point that I believe the (ohmostquotable) Kia is making is that you are making a judgement on a email that in all likelihood, was someone trolling you.  She isn't trying to trick you or be condecending, but highlight that your innocence and naivity in such matters and emails risks you making judgements that are incorrect.  I perved your profile - you are a prime target.  Your new stature on CM is going to leave you open to getting such letters within your short time here and in all probability fall for the white knight mantra of people like the OP.
 
I also think it helps that you don't resort to impolite remarks when people are trying to assist you.  Kia pretty much rocks and resorting to throwing back into her face the very thing she was trying to discuss with you with is pretty immature and uncalled  - as well as (lets use that favourite word) 'condecending - for IMO.  But then the addiction of belittling people could be something that you need to do?  Who knows.
I am not trying to be a smart arse here - I am just trying to explain the perception that someone can have about an addiction and that it can be wrong when a person doesn't know another.
 
Edit to add -
quote:

What kind of woman tells another woman that she has known, for maybe half an hour, on the internet such a thing if she were not having some issues. The fact that the first thing you thought of was surrogate motherhood rather than, OMG ick! makes me wonder if you aren't one of those male profile's with a woman's picture.


I believe that what was highlighted was that surogate mothers exist and they are not - in your words - 'crazy to ask someone.' - not that the letter actually came from a surrogate seeker.  The fact that you automatically assume that the letter came from a woman at all is concerning.

 
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 7/2/2009 2:49:13 AM >

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Sarahsubmits)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 3:07:26 AM   
Sarahsubmits


Posts: 37
Joined: 7/1/2009
Status: offline 		I got a series of letters from her. At first she didn't mention her real motive at all. She was trying to be friendly and sound nice. I really think that this person is who she says she is. I got to asking her questions about her lifestyle and what she does. I was curious to hear from another submissive.

She told me, in her fourth or fifth letter that her master doesn't want her anymore.

I asked her why and she said "it wasn't his fault that she couldn't have children."

She has only me this guy twice, they live hundreds of miles apart.

The way she said it, and a lot of other little things, make me think this really was just a desperate girl. It could be a very elaborate scam, but if it is, it is the best acting I have ever seen from a man.

The possibility of a woman trolling me, just to be mean, really didn't occur to me though. Maybe you are right. I hope you are, because I feel awful for her if this is for real.

And Kia knew full well what I was saying. No one could possibly think that this was a normal case of surrogate motherhood. You don't find a surrogate mother online from a bondage site profile or ask someone about it after knowing them for less than a day.

"Master" saw my photos and thought I was whatever. He had her get online and contact me. With the thought of making me pregnant! I imagine that was agonizing for her. The whole thing makes me ill.




< Message edited by Sarahsubmits -- 7/2/2009 3:24:24 AM >

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 3:28:12 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		The longer you have a profile on CM, the more you will find these kind of things happen really regularly.  Now it is possible the letter is from a female.  But the chances that it's a person of either gender, just playing a game is far more likely.  You are responding to their 'fantasy' and feeding it - yes I know that's a really pessamistic view, but you are feeding their addiction/depression/fantasy and it's neither healthy for them or for you.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Sarahsubmits)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 3:34:23 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		*waves to the dark*
 
Yes, things online, certainly here at CM, are often not what they seem.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 3:39:46 AM   
Goddess2002


Posts: 226
Joined: 2/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits

That is so offensive and so completely different. Just don't talk to me please.


I'm having flashbacks to vanilla dating.



lol...thanks...this thread needed a bit of humor!

(in reply to variation30)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 3:47:12 AM   
Sarahsubmits


Posts: 37
Joined: 7/1/2009
Status: offline 		And one other thing,

I had thought I would let it drop, but this pissed me off. if I say I am getting angry, then yes it is possible I am having an emotional reaction! Of course I am having an emotional reaction! What will make me even more emotional, is assuming that I don't get abstract concepts or that you guys are just too smart for me to understand.

You aren't. I read you loud and clear and I really can't stand what I am hearing.

I am angry because of the futility of this. Explaining that there really are common sense limits to things, and that basic kindness, is a requirement, not an option, to people who just don't want to believe that, is like trying to explain algebra to a cat. There simply is no common lexicon.

And to Dark,

I am not trying to say that there should be morality police on this site. I am saying that part of personal responsibility means policing yourself and not taking advantage. It also means not giving others a pass when they do. You are right, I do not see the irony or the danger of saying that.

What is SSC?

Something something consent? Look, I can tell from your posts that you get that consent is not always real consent. I am not against real consent. I am against thinking it is all good to take advantage of people who are already hurting.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 3:53:53 AM   
Sarahsubmits


Posts: 37
Joined: 7/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

The longer you have a profile on CM, the more you will find these kind of things happen really regularly.  Now it is possible the letter is from a female.  But the chances that it's a person of either gender, just playing a game is far more likely.  You are responding to their 'fantasy' and feeding it - yes I know that's a really pessamistic view, but you are feeding their addiction/depression/fantasy and it's neither healthy for them or for you.
 
the.dark.


Well, that's less gross than the alternative. I knew there would be some creepers when I got on here. I had a chat with a "woman" who turned out to be from Nigeria already.

I'm certain this one was a man. The story was that "she" was looking for online sub sisters. She didn't speak like a woman and she was much much too pushy to try to get me on a cam.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 192
RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 4:16:08 AM   
KaraThrace


Posts: 22
Joined: 7/23/2007
Status: offline 		Fast reply from my mobile so i can't do pretty quotes. Sarah, ssc is safe sane and consentual a basis for play that some, not all subscribe to. in regards to the email you received i can see where its content shocked and sickened you. i would be suprised myself to receive such a note but what Kia and thedark are trying to explain is that most likely it was a fabricated fantasy meant to get your reaction which is what really excited them. just like you get bottom feeders on facebook or myspace you get them here. as a general comment on the original post, to sustain basic existence of course you need water air etc. but as evolved human beings we make the choice to persue that which we desire to complete our personal selves. (pc enough answer?) nobody forced the junky to take their first hit, they sparked the flame to enable the need

(in reply to Sarahsubmits)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 4:36:06 AM   
Sarahsubmits


Posts: 37
Joined: 7/1/2009
Status: offline 		I hope she is right. Honestly, if it is just one bottom feeder living a sick fantasy of pissing me off, that is sooo much better than what it claims to be.

Safe Sane Consensual! That sounds really good to me!

I am starting to think that such slogans are like the NRA for some people here. I once dated a guy who was really into guns. He would go on and on about the philosophy of the Second Amendment and that "guns were tools to be used safely and responsibly." All of his friends would say the same stuff, over and over. Somehow, for all of that safety and "responsibility first" talk, one of his buddies managed to almost shoot someone, when he "didn't think the was a bullet in the barrel" or something like that.

Nowhere did he see the stupidity or irresponsibility of his actions. Yet, this guy would swear up and down all of the slogans of safe gun usage. The jerk shouldn't have been allowed to shoot rubber bands, let alone some big pistol he thought was some sort of penis surrogate.

Hypocrisy is one thing. Hypocrisy that might get others killed pointlessly is something much worse.

P.S.

Love the nic, so say we all!

< Message edited by Sarahsubmits -- 7/2/2009 4:41:42 AM >

(in reply to KaraThrace)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 4:48:09 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits
And Kia knew full well what I was saying. No one could possibly think that this was a normal case of surrogate motherhood. You don't find a surrogate mother online from a bondage site profile or ask someone about it after knowing them for less than a day.


Whilst I cannot speak for Kia, I certainly didn't automatically assume this was a normal case of surrogacy.  But then I didn't automatically assume that you are ok with surrogacy either - your initial post (to me) implied that anyone who asks another to give birth to a child for their partner and themselves are questionable.  Obviously, I know now that this isn't the case but your initial post came across like that.  It all comes down to those initial subjective perceptions and that is essentially the cux of what people have been trying to discuss with the OP on addictions and the whole 'what is an addiction' right down to what is morally 'wrong'.
Sorry I didn't respond to this before.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Sarahsubmits)
Profile   Post #: 195
RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 4:58:41 AM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		If you think being asked to be a surrogate was offensive, just wait until you get offers for all of the stuff that goes way beyond the terms of service here.
You're new here and will get hit up by all kinds of scammers and trolls. Don't base your judgements on online troll fantasies.


_____________________________



(in reply to Sarahsubmits)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 5:08:41 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits
I am angry because of the futility of this. Explaining that there really are common sense limits to things, and that basic kindness, is a requirement, not an option, to people who just don't want to believe that, is like trying to explain algebra to a cat. There simply is no common lexicon.


It may be a requirement, but where does it change from being a need to want?
Honestly, for me, I don't always require kindness.  In fact, if it is insincere or given to me by someone I have no time for, then it totally sucks.

quote:

And to Dark,

I am not trying to say that there should be morality police on this site. I am saying that part of personal responsibility means policing yourself and not taking advantage. It also means not giving others a pass when they do. You are right, I do not see the irony or the danger of saying that.


The irony is that having the need to tell people and not giving others a pass can become an addiction in itself.  The whole thread was about the need to do things... and if you haven't got the self control to not interfere in someone elses life - but instead 'need' to voice your concern - isn't that an addiction by the definition that the OP gave.

quote:

What is SSC?


Yes it's safe sane and consensual.  But understand that it's a myth - a pretense that peole use to try and justify that what they are doing is ok.  Safe and sane are totally (again) subjective.  I would happily find cutting and knife play cool.  Asphyxiation play - rocks!  But chloroform or getting me to walk to the top of a very high building and look out the window - I couldn't think of things more unsafe - for me.

quote:

Look, I can tell from your posts that you get that consent is not always real consent. I am not against real consent. I am against thinking it is all good to take advantage of people who are already hurting.


I don't like the word consent at all - on any level.  Personally I find it a pretty lame buzz word that tries to explain that peoples relationship or what they do are ok - 'no really'. (add a bit of sarcasm onto the end of that) and that other peoples relationship must be bad because they don't do it 'right'.  I'll use consent when talking to people because it helps with communication on forums like this, doesn't mean I agree with the definition.
 
I understand that you are new to the forums and to BDSM in general.  My only suggestion is to not get so wrapped up in anothers fantasy (like this person whom wrote you) unless you are enjoying it.  You are 'consenting' to it.  And don't get blinded by personal responsibility - without taking into account that people- humans - are inherently flawed or may just not on the same moral wavelength as you.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Sarahsubmits)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 5:13:20 AM   
Sarahsubmits


Posts: 37
Joined: 7/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits
And Kia knew full well what I was saying. No one could possibly think that this was a normal case of surrogate motherhood. You don't find a surrogate mother online from a bondage site profile or ask someone about it after knowing them for less than a day.


Whilst I cannot speak for Kia, I certainly didn't automatically assume this was a normal case of surrogacy.  But then I didn't automatically assume that you are ok with surrogacy either - your initial post (to me) implied that anyone who asks another to give birth to a child for their partner and themselves are questionable.  Obviously, I know now that this isn't the case but your initial post came across like that.  It all comes down to those initial subjective perceptions and that is essentially the cux of what people have been trying to discuss with the OP on addictions and the whole 'what is an addiction' right down to what is morally 'wrong'.
Sorry I didn't respond to this before.
 
the.dark.


That's fair, but I didn't see a lot about the nature of addiction from the people who were really "debating." I just saw a lot of things that said that you shouldn't call it an addiction, because addiction is a loaded word, and people like doing it. The counterpoint, which got made a dozen different ways, is that people like the high but not the consequences and that they are often not in a place to see the consequences, and that their ability to meaningfully consent is messed up.

I saw no one say anything that addresses that at all. It was just more "if they want it, it's fine."

Can we agree that if someone gets so addicted to drugs, that it actually makes sense to be a prostitute (to get another fix), that they have crossed some threshold out of being able to judge clearly? If that is true - and I don't see how someone can argue it isn't - is it possible that the same basic idea can apply to some here?


(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 5:17:33 AM   
Sarahsubmits


Posts: 37
Joined: 7/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits
I am angry because of the futility of this. Explaining that there really are common sense limits to things, and that basic kindness, is a requirement, not an option, to people who just don't want to believe that, is like trying to explain algebra to a cat. There simply is no common lexicon.


It may be a requirement, but where does it change from being a need to want?
Honestly, for me, I don't always require kindness.  In fact, if it is insincere or given to me by someone I have no time for, then it totally sucks.

quote:

And to Dark,

I am not trying to say that there should be morality police on this site. I am saying that part of personal responsibility means policing yourself and not taking advantage. It also means not giving others a pass when they do. You are right, I do not see the irony or the danger of saying that.


The irony is that having the need to tell people and not giving others a pass can become an addiction in itself.  The whole thread was about the need to do things... and if you haven't got the self control to not interfere in someone elses life - but instead 'need' to voice your concern - isn't that an addiction by the definition that the OP gave.

quote:

What is SSC?


Yes it's safe sane and consensual.  But understand that it's a myth - a pretense that peole use to try and justify that what they are doing is ok.  Safe and sane are totally (again) subjective.  I would happily find cutting and knife play cool.  Asphyxiation play - rocks!  But chloroform or getting me to walk to the top of a very high building and look out the window - I couldn't think of things more unsafe - for me.

quote:

Look, I can tell from your posts that you get that consent is not always real consent. I am not against real consent. I am against thinking it is all good to take advantage of people who are already hurting.


I don't like the word consent at all - on any level.  Personally I find it a pretty lame buzz word that tries to explain that peoples relationship or what they do are ok - 'no really'. (add a bit of sarcasm onto the end of that) and that other peoples relationship must be bad because they don't do it 'right'.  I'll use consent when talking to people because it helps with communication on forums like this, doesn't mean I agree with the definition.
 
I understand that you are new to the forums and to BDSM in general.  My only suggestion is to not get so wrapped up in anothers fantasy (like this person whom wrote you) unless you are enjoying it.  You are 'consenting' to it.  And don't get blinded by personal responsibility - without taking into account that people- humans - are inherently flawed or may just not on the same moral wavelength as you.
 
the.dark.


Where did the OP say that everyone should interfere with everyone else? I'm just asking. The closest thing I saw to that was saying that you don't let your drunk friends drive. Then there was a lot of snarking about the constitution. I know why he did it, but it detracted from the argument.

I think you are right about slogans... Did you see my post about my NRA ex?

< Message edited by Sarahsubmits -- 7/2/2009 5:19:01 AM >

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 5:31:26 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits
The counterpoint, which got made a dozen different ways, is that people like the high but not the consequences and that they are often not in a place to see the consequences, and that their ability to meaningfully consent is messed up.

I saw no one say anything that addresses that at all. It was just more "if they want it, it's fine."


From my POV( and like I have said before, we all read and perceive things differently), I saw some people debating that if someone wants to do it - it's up to them - and no amount of being told it's 'wrong' or 'not fine' will make a blind bit for difference.  And that sometimes, an act is fine - just because you (generic term) don't agree with it, doesn't make it not fine.  See, this is where consent get all fucked up for me.  Apparently its not 'consent' if someone gets so high they can't see the floor (that's an analagy, but I hope you get what I mean) - but in that case, if someone decides to tell that person over and over that they are 'wrong' - and they don't consent to wanting to hear that but someone has such a need to tell another person that they are wrong that they ignore their wishes - then which nonconsent is 'worse'?

quote:

Can we agree that if someone gets so addicted to drugs, that it actually makes sense to be a prostitute (to get another fix), that they have crossed some threshold out of being able to judge clearly? If that is true - and I don't see how someone can argue it isn't - is it possible that the same basic idea can apply to some here?
 
I honestly cannot agree with you because I don't see things/actions as blanket 'good or bad' or 'right or wrong'.  I look at an individual, rather than the action they are performing - I find that a vital part of any judgement call.  Things aren't always black and white, experience and time have taught me that.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Sarahsubmits)
Profile   Post #: 200
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