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Outliving philosophy - 6/27/2009 8:23:22 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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I believe that a religion should not last longer than the lifetime of its founder. If it does, it becomes subject to the corruption of the original intent, as the purpose which drove the founder to break away from wherever xhe started (and which motives would really be contained within the founder's mind) was adapted by leadership that follows (who would be driven by purposes of their own), and the original concepts perverted (some would say 'refined', but I consider such a shift a 'corruption' of the original intent) by the conceptual differences occurring in each future mind that came in contact with the sect.

Additionally, a religion that outlasts its founder becomes subject to interpretation. Teachings are broken apart, separated from their context, and re-applied in situations that bear no resemblance to when and why the original teaching came about. Individuals apply their own goals, motives, power-plays, and expectations to the original work, creating something that often bears no resemblance to the original work. Additionally, qualifiers may be lost in translation, added, subtracted, or completely dismissed. When the original bearer is no longer present to explain what xhe meant by 'such and such', the speculation becomes the -existence- of the religion.

Since humankind apparently cannot live without religions, I think that it is important that our religions at least not outlast their creators, so that issues of interpretation can be corrected before they result in hate, death, fear, anger, misery, etc., and we can hear 'from the horse's mouth' how something is meant (at least insofar as such a person would choose not to lie, but that is a completely different issue.)

Thoughts?

CFWB

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RE: Outliving philosophy - 6/27/2009 8:37:16 AM

HatesParisHilton

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my thoughts are,

correct

absolutely

d'accord

I wish to hell you were wrong, but...

can't remove apotheosis and the need thereof without removing the inherent narcissism (and now, dove-tailing sociopathy) in the human animal.

It's like the amount of color reception/perception we've lost. For some things, there's no going back, and generations of acting a certain way have tailored parts of our neurology to not only need this stuff, but treat it like a food stuff with others being competing species with their own needs being a threat to our own.

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RE: Outliving philosophy - 6/27/2009 9:55:08 AM

MichiganHeadmast

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quote:

Thoughts?

Well, I would have used the Socratic method in my reply, but he's dead so I guess I can't.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

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RE: Outliving philosophy - 6/27/2009 11:04:54 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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Clarification: I have to say that the title I chose to use is misleading. In case anyone wonders, I'm not talking about theoretical philosophy here, or teaching points, or styles of philosophical discussion. I'm specifically discussing theogeneisis/religiougenesis, and the creation of religious thought and attendant viewpoints of diety and its apparent relationship to man.

CFWB

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 6/27/2009 11:05:46 AM >

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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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RE: Outliving philosophy - 6/27/2009 11:18:48 AM

kdsub

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As you have said with insight…mankind needs religion and cannot live without it… this reality makes your premise moot.

Perhaps…just perhaps this need is because of a reality you don’t seem to grasp. There may be truth in this basic need. Rather than a destructive force over time, as you see it, it could be the force that has stopped us from destroying ourselves.

You may not be a believer but I’ll bet there is a good chance your forefathers were and a good chance your descendants will be.

It seems the norm is too believe in something greater than oneself…right or wrong that need is in the majority of mankind. So rather then deny the majority why not try to guide them.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/27/2009 11:19:40 AM >

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RE: Outliving philosophy - 6/27/2009 12:45:21 PM

rulemylife

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Why is mankind needing religion a reality?

As you said, there are non-believers who manage just fine without it.

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RE: Outliving philosophy - 6/27/2009 12:51:53 PM

kdsub

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It is only a reality in that the majority of humanity seeks and believes... it has been this way in the past...it is today...and will be so in the foreseeable future.

Unless you have some insight or mental capacity greater than your immediate forefathers then intelligence or science has little to do with belief.

Of course it is just my opinion...even if backed by numbers…that mankind will continue to search for understanding of existence both through religion and science… It is a part of our nature.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Outliving philosophy - 6/27/2009 1:25:10 PM

rulemylife

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I think it's more indoctrination than nature.

We are told what to believe from an early age and told questioning those beliefs is sinful.

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RE: Outliving philosophy - 6/27/2009 1:42:45 PM

kdsub

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That is always a possibility...just wondering how did you make a decision... were your parents believers?...Mine were not but as I grew older I became more and more religious... Not a Bible spouting fanatic...but a believer non the less.

I think all people reach a point in their life where they make a decision on religion...but there is no doubt that your environment will make a difference. But remember religion did appear... it was embraced by many...and it has continued to be an important part of the majority of mankind.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 9

RE: Outliving philosophy - 6/27/2009 1:50:12 PM

DemonKia

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FR, after read thru

Great post, Calla!

The first & most immediate thought that comes to me on this subject is about the finding of the 'God module' in the brain . . . . . I forget the details, but the idea has been one I've found useful in my life . . . . .

I've always felt intense spiritual feelings, some of my earliest feelings that I remember were of a deep spiritual connection to the world around, animist stuff about nature, that sorta thing . . . . . . & the level of spirituality in my extended family is pretty high relative to those around us. Hearing about the notion that there is a built-in 'God module' in the brain explained a lot to me . . . . .

The way that that spiritual stuff has manifested in our family is diverse: from the fundamentalist Protestant beliefs of the older generations to the eclectic & heavily Eastern-influenced ideas the younger generation has adopted . . . . .

Which leads to the idea that if it's an inborn feature of the brain to feel spiritual, then it's a tool. & it becomes, for me, a question of how the tool is used.

I fought the intense spiritual stuff when I was much younger, rejecting & denying that part of myself, trying to channel that stuff into other parts of myself . . . . . . But I've come to see that part of me as a strength, as a foundation of my coping skills & adaptiveness to a changeable universe, that my 'belief' is a ground that holds me secure . . . . . .

(I have more thoughts on this subject, but I'm going to a class / play party & am short on time right at the moment; I'll be back . .. .. .

)

< Message edited by DemonKia -- 6/27/2009 1:52:19 PM >

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RE: Outliving philosophy - 6/27/2009 1:52:21 PM

Arpig

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What the fuck does "xhe" mean??

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RE: Outliving philosophy - 6/27/2009 1:55:28 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

As you have said with insight…mankind needs religion and cannot live without it… this reality makes your premise moot.

Perhaps…just perhaps this need is because of a reality you don’t seem to grasp. There may be truth in this basic need. Rather than a destructive force over time, as you see it, it could be the force that has stopped us from destroying ourselves.

You may not be a believer but I’ll bet there is a good chance your forefathers were and a good chance your descendants will be.

It seems the norm is too believe in something greater than oneself…right or wrong that need is in the majority of mankind. So rather then deny the majority why not try to guide them.

Butch

I did not say that mankind "needs" religion. I said that, apparently, mankind cannot live without religion. Two entirely different things. Really, my post had nothing to do with my own 'beliefs', but with the historical evidence that humankind refuses to accept rational explanations for their existence, and insists, despite its dysfunctional nature, to lean on outdated, poorly explained, and irrational "beliefs" and created 'gods' to guide their action when basic civility and common sense would do as well.

What I "believe" is that humanity uses religion to attempt to explain their world because it is too difficult to accept that things happen simply because they happen, and that there is no 'larger purpose' from some fantasy all-knowing being that makes our dysfunctional, hateful behavior acceptable... but when the religion turns out to not have the explanations they need, humans, in general, find themselves unable to let go of the dysfunctional creation of supposed third party answers for their problems, and choose to hide behind irrational beliefs and created indoctrination/religions, and create gods to justify the horrors that they insist on perpetrating against one another.

Since humanity is clearly unwilling to step beyond the realm of using fantasy and speculation to fuel their behaviors (for good or not), then at -least- those religious fantasies should be maintained by living creators who can answer for the cruelty and viciousness they perpetrate and explain their reasoning. Instead, we attempt to apply culturally irrelevant 'rules' to our current society, and use ancient feuds of dead creators to justify our hatred for anyone who is different.

I find it perverse and disconcerting that human beings cannot move into a state where they embrace their own capacity to take responsibility for their actions, rather than depending on a distant and disconnected "god" to tell them how to be 'good' or what is 'evil', as if they can't figure out themselves that murder, deceit, hatred, violence, slavery, and greed are -wrong-. Or perhaps it is because these fantastic creations allow participants to basically do what they please, and then fantasize that they can just -pray- and that they will be forgiven the horrors that they've perpetrated, some in the very name of the supposed 'god' who was supposed to be teaching the the rules of peace.

Just in case there were any questions about what I "believe".

CFWB

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to rulemylife)

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RE: Outliving philosophy - 6/27/2009 1:56:03 PM

Apocalypso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
Additionally, a religion that outlasts its founder becomes subject to interpretation. Teachings are broken apart, separated from their context, and re-applied in situations that bear no resemblance to when and why the original teaching came about. Individuals apply their own goals, motives, power-plays, and expectations to the original work, creating something that often bears no resemblance to the original work. Additionally, qualifiers may be lost in translation, added, subtracted, or completely dismissed. When the original bearer is no longer present to explain what xhe meant by 'such and such', the speculation becomes the -existence- of the religion.

I'd argue that the process you describe there is a positive thing. It allows beliefs to mutate and grow and change as opposed to stagnate. And the different interpretations, the different speculations twists the religion to fit the needs of the individual.

Belief is a tool for me, not a goal.

_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

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RE: Outliving philosophy - 6/27/2009 1:57:54 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

What the fuck does "xhe" mean??

xhe and hir are gender-neuter pronouns.

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 14

RE: Outliving philosophy - 6/27/2009 1:57:57 PM

DemonKia

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Hey, Arpig, it's an example of a gender neutral pronoun -- Calla always uses gender neutral pronouns, as appropriate . . . . . .

(in reply to Arpig)

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RE: Outliving philosophy - 6/27/2009 2:02:27 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

I'd argue that the process you describe there is a positive thing. It allows beliefs to mutate and grow and change as opposed to stagnate. And the different interpretations, the different speculations twists the religion to fit the needs of the individual.

Belief is a tool for me, not a goal.

Religion/spirituality for me is a personal act of philosophical growth. I think that it is the process of religious indoctrination that is an issue for me. Individual 'belief', even of a discorporate 'god', doesn't necessarily bother me when other people have those beliefs -- except at the point at which someone else's belief steals the life and joy from others as a point of doctrine... and -that- is where I think that the whole process of using ancient religions to justify current behavior (or abdicate responsibility for current behavior) is just -wrong-.

CFWB

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 6/27/2009 2:04:48 PM >

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to Apocalypso)

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RE: Outliving philosophy - 6/27/2009 2:09:43 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

That is always a possibility...just wondering how did you make a decision... were your parents believers?...Mine were not but as I grew older I became more and more religious... Not a Bible spouting fanatic...but a believer non the less.

I think all people reach a point in their life where they make a decision on religion...but there is no doubt that your environment will make a difference. But remember religion did appear... it was embraced by many...and it has continued to be an important part of the majority of mankind.

Butch

Yes my parents were very religious, as is my whole extended family.

I spent all my primary education extending into the first year of high school in Catholic schools.

The thing that started making me wonder about the religious experience was that we were taught to question everything, except when it came time for religion class, where we were taught that you must rely on your faith and not question.

Which basically started the bullshit meter ticking.

(in reply to kdsub)

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RE: Outliving philosophy - 6/27/2009 2:24:19 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

The first & most immediate thought that comes to me on this subject is about the finding of the 'God module' in the brain . . . . . I forget the details, but the idea has been one I've found useful in my life . . . . .

I've always felt intense spiritual feelings, some of my earliest feelings that I remember were of a deep spiritual connection to the world around, animist stuff about nature, that sorta thing . . . . . . & the level of spirituality in my extended family is pretty high relative to those around us. Hearing about the notion that there is a built-in 'God module' in the brain explained a lot to me . . . . .

Then what you are saying is the belief in God and spirituality is just a fantasy world created by our brain chemistry that makes us feel better about ourselves.

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 18

RE: Outliving philosophy - 6/27/2009 2:36:55 PM

Apocalypso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
Religion/spirituality for me is a personal act of philosophical growth. I think that it is the process of religious indoctrination that is an issue for me. Individual 'belief', even of a discorporate 'god', doesn't necessarily bother me when other people have those beliefs -- except at the point at which someone else's belief steals the life and joy from others as a point of doctrine... and -that- is where I think that the whole process of using ancient religions to justify current behavior (or abdicate responsibility for current behavior) is just -wrong-.

I'd agree, but I'd see that as more of an indication that religious belief (or indeed belief in anything) does not absolve anyone of the responsibility for their own actions.

_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 19

RE: Outliving philosophy - 6/27/2009 5:13:48 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

As you have said with insight…mankind needs religion and cannot live without it… this reality makes your premise moot.

I dont agree that we need religion. Im sure im not alone either, if religion stopped tomorrow mankind would still adapt and survive.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 20

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