RE: Outliving philosophy

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tazzygirl -> RE: Outliving philosophy (7/27/2009 11:04:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW I believe that a religion should not last longer than the lifetime of its founder. If it does, it becomes subject to the corruption of the original intent, as the purpose which drove the founder to break away from wherever xhe started (and which motives would really be contained within the founder's mind) was adapted by leadership that follows (who would be driven by purposes of their own), and the original concepts perverted (some would say 'refined', but I consider such a shift a 'corruption' of the original intent) by the conceptual differences occurring in each future mind that came in contact with the sect. Additionally, a religion that outlasts its founder becomes subject to interpretation. Teachings are broken apart, separated from their context, and re-applied in situations that bear no resemblance to when and why the original teaching came about. Individuals apply their own goals, motives, power-plays, and expectations to the original work, creating something that often bears no resemblance to the original work. Additionally, qualifiers may be lost in translation, added, subtracted, or completely dismissed. When the original bearer is no longer present to explain what xhe meant by 'such and such', the speculation becomes the -existence- of the religion. Since humankind apparently cannot live without religions, I think that it is important that our religions at least not outlast their creators, so that issues of interpretation can be corrected before they result in hate, death, fear, anger, misery, etc., and we can hear 'from the horse's mouth' how something is meant (at least insofar as such a person would choose not to lie, but that is a completely different issue.) Thoughts? CFWB Isnt this what Jim Jones did?

bdswitch -> RE: Outliving philosophy (7/27/2009 5:41:24 PM)
About why religions were created- fear. We were afraid when thunder and lightning and hail and drought killed us. Religion gave us the illusion that we could exert some control over the natural world. If we made the right sacrifice the gods would bless us. Today the same arguement is still being used- Hurricane Katrina was a punishment from God because we allow homosexuals to not be stoned to death (at least not too often, see Matthew Sheppard in Wyoming) Humanity cannot live without religions, the evidence being no precedent in history. By this logic, murder should be accepted, because no society has ever existed without murder, and most have flourished precisely because of it-assasinations, wars, genocides. As for "before interpretations result in hate, fear, death, anger, misery", what about the religions founded on those principles? (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) Admittedly, most do not do it for their own membership (hard sell on the followers, very devoted) although really that is a lie too. Women are oftentimes hated, fearful, unsafe, dead, and miserable because of their faith, even in the original prophet/leader's lifetime. A major reason to believe in God is fear, I have often been asked to hedge my bets by at least being an agnostic, on the grounds that "What if you are wrong?" Our best hope is evolution. We started out as hunter gatherers with a spirit in every rock, stream, mountain, bit of sky, thousands of gods. Then cities started to form and it was more difficult to pray every time you needed to get water, so the gods went through a process of accretion, now all the gods of the rivers and streams were controlled by Neptune or Poseidon or Ganges or whoever (depending where you lived). Pantheons got smaller and some gods rose or fell in popularity and stature, depending on what they could promise you (and consequently, how much you would pay their priests in tribute). Then the priests and the kings/pharoahs got the idea that if you could cut out the competition, you would corner the market. The one true God was born. You still had a variety to choose from, Mithras, Isis, Amon-Re, Yahweh. And since then it was all about who could "convince" more people to fork over their cash, and drop to their knees, whether you had to use words, swords, disease (see missionaries in the Americas) to convince them. The Mormons are the most unapologetic since the sale of plenary indulgences by the Catholic church, they catalog databases of genealogic records so they can "convert" the dead. We may be stuck for a while, but once the 4 minute mile was broken, three more broke it quickly: thousands of gods, dozens, a handful, One......NONE!!!! And then we will probably find something else to kill each other over.

Esinn -> RE: Outliving philosophy (7/28/2009 9:50:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW Since humankind apparently cannot live without religions, CFWB My daughter and I live fine without religion. One of the most peaceful, tolerant and charitable nations in the world - Sweden lives fine without religion. The 15,000,000 + people who checked non-religious on their tax forums or other survey's live fine. 95% + of the people with PHDs in any scientific field live fine as well. In Japan and China there an equal number of people who live fine without religion. Every human on this earth was born without religion, they were born atheist. Most religions are corrupt from the start. Introduction To Religious History at any respectable community college teaches us all that. Notice I said "most" someone got all bent out of shape over something like that in another post. There are also varying degrees of corruption - I understand that as well. You will also learn in the same religion class that almost every religion has borrowed from ones which predated it - increasing the chance it is corrupt/incorrect. In my personal writings I have called this adoption & adaptation. Earlier myths which people previously accepted are stolen then changed to have meaning in the contemporary time or to fit the new myth the author is writing. If we are going to crush religion at the death of the creator why bother at all? I have already demonstrated religion is something which is learned not needed. If we seek purpose, value, community, depth or hypersensitive feelings - I agree humans might. We can obtain this through: Art, Music, Theater, BDSM, uninhibited self expression. There are many more meaningful and less dangerous ways to fill such needs.

Esinn -> RE: Outliving philosophy (7/28/2009 9:54:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub That is always a possibility...just wondering how did you make a decision... were your parents believers?...Mine were not but as I grew older I became more and more religious... Not a Bible spouting fanatic...but a believer non the less. I think all people reach a point in their life where they make a decision on religion...but there is no doubt that your environment will make a difference. But remember religion did appear... it was embraced by many...and it has continued to be an important part of the majority of mankind. Butch Of course you did. Just as well as parents indoctrinate so does society. The fact is this is the most Christian/Catholic country on the planet. It is not a leap of faith(LOL PUN INTENDED) to assume that religion would be all around us and views that oppose although no longer hidden not as accessible.

Esinn -> RE: Outliving philosophy (7/28/2009 10:16:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DemonKia FR, after read thru Great post, Calla! The first & most immediate thought that comes to me on this subject is about the finding of the 'God module' in the brain . . . . . I forget the details, but the idea has been one I've found useful in my life . . . . . I've always felt intense spiritual feelings, some of my earliest feelings that I remember were of a deep spiritual connection to the world around, animist stuff about nature, that sorta thing . . . . . . & the level of spirituality in my extended family is pretty high relative to those around us. See one of my most recent posts on page 3. That is all fine and dandy. The submissive has felt such an awe inspiring rush, I have felt it at football games, the stoner has felt in the circle and the Wiccan naturalist as they skip naked care free through the field. It is nothing more than a chemical reaction taking place in our brains because of specific stimulation. This can and has been tested in clinical settings. It has no divine nature to it. I have no doubt the same feelings are felt when praise is sung in uniformity with 10,000 of their peers then in one uniform motion they drop to their knees to grovel at a modern mega church to their being in the sky. Sincerely I see the beauty, understand the desire for the heart warming experience. It is just not rational to tie these feelings in with higher powers. To be in awe, to be astounded, to be entranced or taken back by the complexity of a small crystal or the beauty of a naked partner is rightly human. Religion prays on this human right to be in awe. Go meditate on it in a spider infested cave for all I care. However, understand it is the depth and complexity of the universe which you marvel at not invisible gods. Modern neurology and neuro-pschology are demonstrating with empirical data that religious thought is contained within specific parts of our brains. That said there is no evidence to suggest a god gene, dna code or module exists. "God Does Not Play Dice" What you described has been called, "Einsteinian Religion" Einstein pissed his pants every time he thought about the laws of physics & nature seeing the true beauty within.

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