RE: I just did some calcs on the national debt clock

RE: I just did some calcs on the national debt clock (Full Version)

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MmeGigs -> RE: I just did some calcs on the national debt clock (7/14/2009 7:39:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: MmeGigs A theory that can't work in practice has fundamental problems. Hasnt worked perfectly != "cant work" You're right. Both the free market capitalist and communist theories can work in practice IF people can be convinced or compelled to behave in ways that promote the health/success of the system as a whole.

MmeGigs -> RE: I just did some calcs on the national debt clock (7/14/2009 8:37:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy It is a wage willingly accepted by the worker. It is paying exactly what that person thinks his time is worth for that job. The problem is that the way things are now, the worker doesn't determine what his/her time is worth. The wage "willingly accepted" by the worker is not a figure the worker has negotiated, it's a "take it or leave it" figure set by the employer. Workers have little or no ability to negotiate for themselves.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: I just did some calcs on the national debt clock (7/14/2009 10:14:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy You are too narrowly defining the market. If there is someone anywhere who is capable and willing to do a certain job at a certain wage, they arent being underpaid by definition. An employer is under no obligation to pay more than someone capable is willing to accept. If someone domestically wants to meet that salary (and there are no other exigencies such as being near his colleagues) then he can be hired as well. the last sentence is exactly why underpaying is impossible in a free market..there is supply and there is demand and except for short periods of economic hiccups they will remain in balance..ie they arent underpaid they are paid exactly what the market sets. Thats not so, outsource jobs abroad changes the market and therefore lowers wages. ROFL The market is the market. It expands but its still the market. An expanding labor market = greater supply = lower wages. That is precisely what a market wage is. You cant use the word domestically while we have a world wide market, so dont use it, afair i didnt. therefore my definition isnt too narrow. Multinations move abroad claiming its a free market, many use children to work at a pitance, therefore causing domestic wages to be cut if one needs to compete. Companies both in the US and UK use illegal labour knowing they can pay low wages, as migrant workers fear being exposed to the authorities. but that isnt a free market, so it says nothing about my statement You would be correct if there was a free market where everyone has an equal playing fieldthat is one of the characteristics of a free market. Read my statement again. It is conditioned on a free market. If you want to change the scenario fine, but dont use it to refute my very clear scenario. And as you retreat from a totally free market to one that has some aberrant behavior or is subject to regulation that changes what a fair wage is. However that happens in both directions...overpaying and underpaying. Our markets are close enough to free that I would venture to say there is more overpayment than underpayment. , those conditions hardly ever exist though.

Arpig -> RE: I just did some calcs on the national debt clock (7/15/2009 12:19:07 AM)
The free market is one of the cruelest and most tyrannical of all social constructs. The concept has caused more suffering, misery and woe than anything short of religion. It penalizes the common man and benefits the only the capitalist (believe me I tried very hard to find another word with less of a Marxist flavour but there really is no other word for it). It has no heart, no soul, and has no respect for any rights or freedoms other than the freedom to maximise profits. A truely free market will inevitably lead to lower wages and higher profits. The inevitable end result of a truely unfettered free market is slavery, whether real or of the wage-slave variety. All markets should be regulated for the basic safety of all mankind and of society in general. Period.

Politesub53 -> RE: I just did some calcs on the national debt clock (7/15/2009 2:54:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy ROFL The market is the market. It expands but its still the market. An expanding labor market = greater supply = lower wages. That is precisely what a market wage is. An expanding labour supply fuelled by exploitation, which induces cheap labour, is not a free market. Dress it up or narrow definitions anyway you wish, the basic fact is its still a fixed wage market. Re your use of the word domestically. quote: From your post #68 If someone domestically wants to meet that salary (and there are no other exigencies such as being near his colleagues) then he can be hired as well. I concede that certain employees, usually in specialised jobs, can demand a fixed wage when there is a skills shortage. The UK construction industry experienced this for a few years, during the late eighties building boom in London.

samboct -> RE: I just did some calcs on the national debt clock (7/15/2009 7:06:43 AM)
"The free market is one of the cruelest and most tyrannical of all social constructs. The concept has caused more suffering, misery and woe than anything short of religion. It penalizes the common man and benefits the only the capitalist (believe me I tried very hard to find another word with less of a Marxist flavour but there really is no other word for it). It has no heart, no soul, and has no respect for any rights or freedoms other than the freedom to maximise profits. A truely free market will inevitably lead to lower wages and higher profits. The inevitable end result of a truely unfettered free market is slavery, whether real or of the wage-slave variety. All markets should be regulated for the basic safety of all mankind and of society in general. Period." Just checking the wikipedia definition of "free market" and basically you're correct- the idea of a free market is no regulation whatsoever. As usual, those with no knowledge of history are gullible and easily led. Humans have had free market economies- its called the feudalism of the dark and middle ages and lead to enormous social and economic progress- right? The US was not founded as a free market economy, contrary to what imbecilic talking heads may blather about. Thomas Jefferson saw quite clearly the problems of a free market economy and devised the patent protection system- which certainly provides regulation for an economy. The US patent system allowed the inventor to reap the rewards from his invention- something that never happened in free market economies- and the US economy took off- until of course, Ronnie gutted the patent office. (I really don't like Ronnie Rayguns- it's fortunate that he's given me so much ammo to take potshots at him with....) Unforeseen by Jefferson was a countrywide economy which necessitated anti monopolistic legislation, since monopolies were correctly viewed as antithetical to economic and social progress. Banking regulations were needed so that banks didn't become defacto landlords. A free press was needed so that the populace could remain informed of the decisions that were being made and debate could be carried out in a vigorous manner. All this was working pretty well until the Neocons got in with hysterical blather, rabble rousing, and demagogery (sp?) which convinced the person in the middle class that their hardwon protections weren't needed any longer, because bankers had changed their stripes and seen the error of their ways. Just look at the very reasonable profits and bonuses being paid to employees of Goldman Sachs who are "earning" an average of over three quarters of a million per year. No wonder organized crime is waning- it can't compete with legalized crime..... Sam Sam

MzMia -> RE: I just did some calcs on the national debt clock (7/15/2009 8:17:10 PM)
Wonderful post as always sam. We are reaping the benefits these days of the "free market system", in our current economic nightmare. As far as comparing the "free market" system to criminal activity/legalized crime is fitting. If the shoe fits? [;)]

cadenas -> RE: I just did some calcs on the national debt clock (7/16/2009 12:59:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy Thats not so, outsource jobs abroad changes the market and therefore lowers wages. ROFL The market is the market. It expands but its still the market. An expanding labor market = greater supply = lower wages. That is precisely what a market wage is. I'm glad you dropped the qualifier "free" because when one side of the market has the power to manipulate it like that, it is a perversion of the "free" market. In the economist's model of a free market, the buyer does not have the power to suddenly increase the supply by a huge amount - only the seller has that power. It's about as close to a free market as a snow globe of Disney Castle is to Neuschwanstein Castle.

samboct -> RE: I just did some calcs on the national debt clock (7/16/2009 6:41:31 AM)
To Wilbeurdaddy- (and anybody else that gets his viewpoint) I have some questions for you 1) Where do you see the US vs. China in a decade? 2) How exactly is the US going to compete with China? 3) Have you noticed a relationship between deregulation of the financial industry and the decline of the middle class? 4) Have you noticed a decrease in successful new businesses- especially game changing ones with the decline of the middle class? Let me point out that most new businesses are started by people in the middle class- the poor don't have the capital, and the rich are too busy trying to make sure that they stay rich. Even new businesses started by the poor have to go through a middle class phase. 5) Have you thought about how the high cost of capital in the US versus China might hamper the creation of new businesses? The people at Goldman Sachs have to be getting paid from somewhere....Besides, what else are the poor worker bees in China going to do with their money except allow the government to erect trade barriers? (See wind turbine construction in China- no foreign owned firm could compete in what is now the largest wind turbine market globally.) 6) Have you considered that as manufacturing has become increasingly automated in the West (less so in China), the cost of labor as a percentage of the costs of goods produced has continued to fall and that capital costs for industries such as chip manufacture dominate? 7) Why have chip manufacturers continued to migrate to Asia when their plants are so highly automated? Sam

cadenas -> RE: I just did some calcs on the national debt clock (7/16/2009 7:16:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: samboct 4) Have you noticed a decrease in successful new businesses- especially game changing ones with the decline of the middle class? Let me point out that most new businesses are started by people in the middle class- the poor don't have the capital, and the rich are too busy trying to make sure that they stay rich. Even new businesses started by the poor have to go through a middle class phase. Actually, that's no longer true. The anti-business policies of the last 30 years, and the last ten in particular, are bearing fruit and are pretty much killing entrepreneurship among the middle class. Those same middle-class people who used to start businesses today have to keep their full-time jobs just to have access to health insurance. People like Henry Ford. Bill Hewlett and David Packard. Bill Gates. Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak. Today, they all would be unable to start their businesses without losing health insurance. And it even killed big business - the health care crisis played a major factor in GM's bankruptcy. The only exception is people - of any economic group - who start a "business" out of the necessity of unemployment. Those businesses, of course, aren't likely create jobs or to survive long-term.

samboct -> RE: I just did some calcs on the national debt clock (7/16/2009 9:03:16 AM)
Cadenas Umm, that was my point.... Sam

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