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RE: War for Oil? - 6/30/2009 5:51:58 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Again I disagree philosophy I believe you are conflating change in scale with change. There has always been a perpetual war on terrorism in one form or another. Every decade of every century has had groups, minorities, cults, religions e.t.c. that have propogated terror and in turn have been persecuted. The fact that the scope for death is greater does not mean that the fundamental dynamics of the world have changed. I would also point out that alot of fear of weapons of mass destruction linked with terrorism comes straight from the government to the media. Take the dirty bomb for instance, it is a nonsense weapon with no scientific basis, but the government is quite happy to let the media print horror stories as it keeps people frightened and malleable.


...you haven't addressed my point regarding access to technology.

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RE: War for Oil? - 6/30/2009 5:57:33 PM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		How do you mean philosophy? That what I meant by confusing change in scale to change. The fact that it is easier [in some ways] to access information now oes not change the dynamics of world politics it just changes the stakes. I would also point out that the plethora of information is offset by the abundance of intelligence monitoring and gathering. After all how many people dies from terrorism in 2009 compared to 1809? [to be fair I don't know the answer but I would be willing to stake very large sums on the fact that it would not be far more victims in the present]

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RE: War for Oil? - 6/30/2009 7:22:47 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		The rules of warfare and aquiring power have not changed in thousands of years. The same strategies and tactics described by Sun Tzu, can be applied on any battlefield. Nations still bully with impunity, they just do it a little more selectively.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
The battlefield has changed. The old rules no longer wholly apply. Nations used to be able to bully with impunity if their military was capable enough......that is changing too.

He who wishes to fight must first count the cost. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be dampened. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor dampened, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue... In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War


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RE: War for Oil? - 6/30/2009 8:17:40 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

I see, so resuming international commerce and the economy of a country we liberated isn't appropriate? We should guard the oil fields and keep them from operating? Maybe we should divert them into a sink hole somewhere so nobody can get to them.

You make no sense.


Well maybe because I tend to be cynical and suspicious, but the question in my mind is why did we "liberate" them?

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RE: War for Oil? - 6/30/2009 8:40:56 PM   
FangsNfeet


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Status: offline 		Oil. Everyone wants it but at what cost? These bids along with the current contracts makes wanting the oil almost a loss.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-iraq-oil1-2009jul01,0,1581065.story 

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RE: War for Oil? - 7/1/2009 8:34:29 AM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		Rulemylife if you don't mind I would genuinely like to know whether you think a war for oil is wrong in itself or whether you are angry that the motives given for invasion proved false?

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RE: War for Oil? - 7/1/2009 8:51:37 AM   
MarsBonfire


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Status: offline 		We've also made it quite clear, that if pushed, the US is more than happy to toss it's lofty ideals set forth in the Constitution to one side, and degrade itself to the level of every other tin pot dictatorship defacing the planet.

Yup. We'll toss you in a hole and forget about you. Fuck this "hebeas corpus" and fair and speedy trial crap.

We'll torture you. Hell, even our second in command thinks it's a fine idea!

If we don't feel like doing it ourselves, we'll kidnap you off the street, and send you to some dark little country that enjoys torturing people just for the fun of it.

If you're a long term thorn in our sides, we'll make shit up so we can invade your shithole country.

We wiretap our own citizens.... so don't expect any privacy on that count.



Osama Bin Lieden said that his goal was "To reduce the United States to a shadow of it's former self." Looks like Bush and Cheany were more than happy to help him..

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RE: War for Oil? - 7/1/2009 8:55:43 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Rulemylife if you don't mind I would genuinely like to know whether you think a war for oil is wrong in itself or whether you are angry that the motives given for invasion proved false?


Both.

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RE: War for Oil? - 7/1/2009 8:58:04 AM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		Why do you think a war for oil is wrong?

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RE: War for Oil? - 7/1/2009 9:30:49 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Why do you think a war for oil is wrong?


More to the point, why do you think it is right ? 

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: War for Oil? - 7/1/2009 9:35:52 AM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		 Because oil is a commodity I use every day polite sub. I am 23 years old now and do not need to live in Britain anymore but I choose to. Therefore I think that makes me responsible [if only in a small part] for our countries current foreign policy. I wish we were a nuclear powered country, but we are not we are shackled to fossil fuels and Saddam Hussein was a mad man in control of vast deposits of it. I think, personally, that it is unfair to shirk responsibility and say that a war for oil is wrong whilst using large quantities of it every day.

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RE: War for Oil? - 7/1/2009 9:40:04 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Because oil is a commodity I use every day polite sub. I am 23 years old now and do not need to live in Britain anymore but I choose to. Therefore I think that makes me responsible [if only in a small part] for our countries current foreign policy. I wish we were a nuclear powered country, but we are not we are shackled to fossil fuels and Saddam Hussein was a mad man in control of vast deposits of it. I think, personally, that it is unfair to shirk responsibility and say that a war for oil is wrong whilst using large quantities of it every day.


But you think it is acceptable for us to take what we want.

The "might makes right" philosophy?

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: War for Oil? - 7/1/2009 9:44:00 AM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		Two points rulemylife one is that I do indeed think might makes right everything else is secondary to that. Secondly  it is irrelevant whether I think we are right to invade or not as regardless I have chosen by staying in this country to benefit from the spoils [oil] so therefore I am as guilty/responsible as those that ordered the invasion.

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RE: War for Oil? - 7/1/2009 10:11:44 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Two points rulemylife one is that I do indeed think might makes right everything else is secondary to that.


So, you are much bigger and stronger than your neighbor. 

He brings home a new Mercedes and you're driving a rusted-out wreck.

So you beat the crap out of him and take his car. 

When you face the judge you explain how he was a real prick, he beat his wife, his dogs crapped on your lawn, and you think he was a drug dealer so you were perfectly justified in taking his car.

How do you think that will play out in court?

quote:


Secondly  it is irrelevant whether I think we are right to invade or not as regardless I have chosen by staying in this country to benefit from the spoils [oil] so therefore I am as guilty/responsible as those that ordered the invasion.


Altruistic nonsense that you can argue for any number of things that have occurred in your country or been done by your government if you have a victim complex and enjoy living in a constant state of guilt.

I don't take responsibility for the decisions of my government that I oppose but can do little to influence.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: War for Oil? - 7/1/2009 10:19:14 AM   
Starbuck09


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Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		  You would go to jail in that scenario rule my life as you would have broken the law of the society that you live in. Nations on the other hand follow international law which relies largely on other nations to enforce it. Sadly in reality this means powerful countries do whatever they want and weaker countries endure it. Might is right is not an ideal it simply is.
I am not a victim rule my life I just take responsibility for my choices. You don't take responsibility for the decisions of the government? Sp presumably if we were in Iraq to farm the natives as a cheap source of meat you would disagree wwith it but still chow on down anywat after all how can you influence the government? It's out of your hands. I don't live in a state of guilt because I, personally, feel that I discharge my responsibilities, I have made peace with what I am. You live in a democracy rule my life that is a choice you make and that means that you are equally responsible for the government we have whether you voted for them or not. Democracy means that you cannot duck your share in how we are ruled.

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RE: War for Oil? - 7/1/2009 10:35:36 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		~FR~

Two starving men see some fruit just in front of them. They both know they will die unless they eat. There is only enough fruit for one man to live. Resolve this conflict.

That is how many nations see natural resources, espcially oil. If a nation does not have enough it starves, or it cannot grow to the size it wants to. Right or wrong this is what Starbuck is saying, I believe.

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RE: War for Oil? - 7/1/2009 2:39:13 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Because oil is a commodity I use every day polite sub. I am 23 years old now and do not need to live in Britain anymore but I choose to. Therefore I think that makes me responsible [if only in a small part] for our countries current foreign policy. I wish we were a nuclear powered country, but we are not we are shackled to fossil fuels and Saddam Hussein was a mad man in control of vast deposits of it. I think, personally, that it is unfair to shirk responsibility and say that a war for oil is wrong whilst using large quantities of it every day.


Frankly paying for it seems a better deal than letting people die for it, dont you think ? Dont tell me, next stop Russia to steal the gas, that should work huh.




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RE: War for Oil? - 7/1/2009 2:56:47 PM   
xBullx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

So, your telling me if gang of blokes break into your home, and steal everything thats okay ? My bet is you will be straight on the phone dialling three nines.



Shoot them motherfuckers!!!

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I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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RE: War for Oil? - 7/1/2009 3:36:45 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I don't take responsibility for the decisions of my government that I oppose but can do little to influence.



Whether you oppose the decision or not, you are responsible. The government speaks for you.  Saying you opposed a decision does not take away your responsibility in it. Unless you are not a citizen. In which case  they don't speak for you.

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RE: War for Oil? - 7/1/2009 4:11:34 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

Whether you oppose the decision or not, you are responsible. The government speaks for you.  Saying you opposed a decision does not take away your responsibility in it. Unless you are not a citizen. In which case  they don't speak for you.


How so ? Im sure all the right wingers here wont be too happy to hear they are responsibile for President Obamas decisions. Although I love the irony of that thought.

We vote a government into power, they are then responsible for what they do. If they do the wrong thing we vote them out, or at least we should.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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