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RE: master/slave - 2/16/2006 12:07:54 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314


Then why would you consider taking a slave? A tad premature?


Emphatically agrees.

(in reply to MHOO314)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: master/slave - 2/16/2006 12:24:47 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos


quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314


Then why would you consider taking a slave? A tad premature?


Emphatically agrees.


So what makes one ready? How much homework needs to be done before one should even consider taking a slave?

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: master/slave - 2/16/2006 12:37:41 PM   
nonuts4thshoney


Posts: 550
Joined: 6/12/2005
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Master and i took a dive right into a M/s dynamic with no experience whatsoever. How'd we do at first? Well we both stuggled, made mistakes....BUT.... we learned from them. in my opinion you can read all the books you want but hands on is a whole 'nother story. To me thats like saying that someone who reads how to be a parent in a bunch of praenting books will know what to do. YEAH, UH HUH! LOL!! Everyone has to start somewhere, and someone who is booksmart at a subject before taking it on wont make them necesarily better at it. In my opinion, read on it, but don't stop. The learning will always continue. Take on a newbie and have fun together. :)

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: master/slave - 2/16/2006 12:44:48 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nonuts4thshoney
Everyone has to start somewhere, and someone who is booksmart at a subject before taking it on wont make them necesarily better at it.


Obviously, I am in total agreement with you. So much of the crap that is abundant in this lifestyle comes from the over-emphesis on experience. Every Dom I have ever met is either a newbie, or has 25 years of R/L 24/7 Story-of-O-like experience.

It sets such a bad example for the newbies that as soon as they admit that they are new, they learn that they must pretend to be experienced before they can "even consider taking a slave." It is such utter crap.

Experience can be a good thing, but it has its drawbacks. I will never again have the enthusiasm and snese of wonder that I did when I first discovered the lifestyle. I know I was a much more attentive and energetic Master in those early years. Now, I am a bit more jaded and a whole lot lazier. *smile* Experience isn't the only quality on which to judge a Master, though many would have you believe that it is.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to nonuts4thshoney)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: master/slave - 2/16/2006 12:54:50 PM   
nonuts4thshoney


Posts: 550
Joined: 6/12/2005
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

I will never again have the enthusiasm and snese of wonder that I did when I first discovered the lifestyle. I know I was a much more attentive and energetic Master in those early years.
Taggard


Very true that when you first start you're enthusiam is through the roof. i hear alot of people say that you should take things slow as well. Well, since i took the dive in when first starting i did everything. So much that i made myself crazy. i think Master went a little crazy too. LOL!! BUT do i regret it? Nope! i tried things and made many many mistakes. In my opinion the best way to learn is from your mistakes. i totally live by this quote: "The second time you get kicked in the head by a mule is not a learning experience" So i think if the enthusiam is there go ahead and fly with it. The worst that will happen is that you'll F-up. Get up, shake it off and try again. Newbies shouyldn't have it in there head that they have to be perfect from the get-go.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: master/slave - 2/16/2006 12:58:12 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos


quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314


Then why would you consider taking a slave? A tad premature?


Emphatically agrees.


So what makes one ready? How much homework needs to be done before one should even consider taking a slave?

Taggard



To be a Master you must be a Master. You must have understanding of what a Master is. Who defines who and what you are as dominant? Simply, you, and your source is the more primal side of your nature. No amount of "text resources" in the world will make you thus. I think this is one of the problems with many; they pervert the concept into endless miles of leather mantras and theory to be learned—that if they somehow remember all the lines it's going to make a difference.

I would compare it to painting. Many have viewed my work, and upon studying it tend to attempt remembering the color combinations. I always say it's pretty meaningless to do that. I would say learn to visualize, not program yourself. With vision it will work; when programmed you are nothing more than a wooden doll. Just my take on it.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: master/slave - 2/16/2006 1:12:17 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

To be a Master you must be a Master.


And to be a Master you must be a Master. Until you snap that locking collar on a slave's neck (or whatever metaphor of ownership you choose to use), all the feelings and nature and primal sides is just a bunch of brain fog and feel good talk.

quote:


You must have understanding of what a Master is.


No, you really don't. To be a slave Master, it's enough simply to own a slave. Now being a good Master, that is a whole 'nother kettle of fish...

quote:


Who defines who and what you are as dominant?


Dominance has very little to do with being a slave Master. Some who are dominant also own slaves. Some who own slaves are also dominant...one, however, is not required of the other.

Taggard



_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: master/slave - 2/16/2006 1:17:14 PM   
Elegant


Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant

Consider the implications if you changed a few words in the OP's statement:
I'm considering taking a wife. Are there any good articles to read on marriage. I have little experience as a husband.


You raise a very good point, but one that, for me, is not consistent with the rest of your post.

How does one get the experience of being a husband without actually being a husband? You can't! You can read about it and learn about it, but until you slip that ring on her finger, you are nothing but a wannabe husband.

If one wants to learn what it is like to own a slave, there is nothing one can do but go out and get a slave. All the reading and listening and online role-play is just so much noise until you take possession of your first slave.

The way life works, most slaves aren't going to want to belong to you until you have developed at least a few skills, so the simply task of acquiring a slave can be enough education in, and of, itself.


I did not state that one should have actual 'husband' experience before becoming a husband (or a Master or a slave or even a eunich). One can and should learn about themselves and what they really want, research facets of the chosen wants and needs and search for people that fit those facets. Then there is a time of getting to know each other and learning if there is a match of wants and needs.

In the vanilla world this is commonly known as dating, courting, posting of the banns, a period of engagement. That gives time for the two to know each other instead of someone waking up one morning and saying 'Hey, I want a wife'. Let me read some books about being a proper husband and then, presto, I can get a wife and we can instantly be married'.

quote:

Elegant
So true. Master/slave relationships should not be treated like 'going steady' or having a long term girlfriend/boyfriend.

quote:

TallDarkAndWitty
Why not? What kind of relationship should one treat as "going steady"? Top/bottom? Dom/sub? Are these kinds of relationships simply stepping stones to the all hallowed Master/slave?

Not in my book...Master/slave is a type of relationship. You can have casual Master/slave relationships, or you can have serious commited ones. It all depends on how serious the Master and slave want to make it.


In a way, yes..stepping stones. Just as 'going steady, 'pinned', 'engaged' etc are all different stepping stones to marriage. What is so bad about being in Dominant/submissive relationship befome stepping to a more committed Master/slave relationship? Is it just the desire of someone wanting to call themselves a 'Master'?

In the vanilla marriage arena it is attitudes such as yours that promote the idea of marriage being 'just another relationship' and easy to dispose of. A 'casual' marriage? (not to be confused with an 'open' marriage).

Master/slave relationships should be treated with as much respect, if not more so, than marriage. (or how marriage was respected before it became an annual even for some people).

Yes, some Master/slave relationships will not work out and the slave will be released. But why go into such a relationship with the thought of 'it's just like dating..I can always break it off'?

_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: master/slave - 2/16/2006 1:35:11 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant

In a way, yes..stepping stones. Just as 'going steady, 'pinned', 'engaged' etc are all different stepping stones to marriage. What is so bad about being in Dominant/submissive relationship befome stepping to a more committed Master/slave relationship? Is it just the desire of someone wanting to call themselves a 'Master'?


Here is where we diverege. For me a dominant/submissive relationship is nothing like a Master/slave relationship, so how would one prepare you for another?

Master/slave relationships are based on ownership, dom/sub relationships are based on control.

Taking ownership of a slave need not be a lifelong commitment, it could simply be for a few hours, buth those few hours would have much more in common with a long term Master/slave relationship than a 3 month dom/sub relationship.

quote:


In the vanilla marriage arena it is attitudes such as yours that promote the idea of marriage being 'just another relationship' and easy to dispose of. A 'casual' marriage? (not to be confused with an 'open' marriage).


Marriage is a particular state of a particular kind of relationship. You seem to be equating a "state of a relationship" with a "kind of relationship."

Marriage is to long term committed Master/slave relationship

as

going steady is to short term committed Master/slave relationship

as

casually dating is to three hour Master/slave contracts


We are in agreement that there shouldn't be causal marriages, but that doesn't have anything to do with healthy, respectful and respectable casual Master/slave relationships.

quote:


Master/slave relationships should be treated with as much respect, if not more so, than marriage. (or how marriage was respected before it became an annual even for some people).


I agree that long term committed Master/slave relationships should be treated with as much respect as marriages, but why do you disallow the possibility of a healthy and worthwhile short term Master/slave relationship?

How is one supposed to know that one really wants to own a slave if they have to wait for a life long commitment before trying it out???


quote:


Yes, some Master/slave relationships will not work out and the slave will be released. But why go into such a relationship with the thought of 'it's just like dating..I can always break it off'?


Because it is healthy to have a "dating" phase in all kinds of relationships. Putting the "lifelong" pressure on these kinds of relationships is what leads to that horrible concept of "the One" that so many newbie (and not so newbie) slaves end up searching for.

Those who have the desire to own (and the complimentary desire to be owned) should be encouraged to test those desires in relationships that are not considered failures if they don't last a lifetime.

Taggard

< Message edited by TallDarkAndWitty -- 2/16/2006 1:36:39 PM >

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to Elegant)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: master/slave - 2/16/2006 1:47:08 PM   
TyrAnasazi


Posts: 19
Joined: 9/10/2004
From: The Palm Beaches
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

quote:

ORIGINAL: hancuffman

I'm considering taking a slave. Are there any good articles to read on slave training. I have little experience as a master.


i am a bit bothered by how this was worded. imho, i think that before You can Master another, You need to be certain You can Master Yourself. Is this just a whim? You woke one day and said 'i'm a Master, i need a slave"? Personally, i think You need to read articles regarding being a Master (sorry i don't have any at my fingertips since i've never had a desire to be a Master). i am not trying to be a smartass. It just concerns me how the question was worded. If You don't know what You are doing as a Master, it seems to me You could do serious harm (emotionally and physically) to a slave. Just my opinion.

ok i just tried to pull up hancuffman's profile and maybe it's just a 'glitch' in the system, but it's 'profile not found'.


I think she said it all there. If you understand who you are and can maintain the proper control, you can learn just about every thing. I owned my first slave at 21 and I will admit with each nw girl there is some learning that is associated with it. Be opened to others especally to your slave, Give her love and respect because although you are not perfect she will not be either. Gain an understanding of limits and safe words. Do not go into this light hearted this is a major responcibility.

_____________________________

Hunc tu cavetto Advocatus Diaboli
Tyr Anasazi

(in reply to angelic)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: master/slave - 2/16/2006 4:56:36 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos
To be a Master you must be a Master.


And to be a Master you must be a Master. Until you snap that locking collar on a slave's neck (or whatever metaphor of ownership you choose to use), all the feelings and nature and primal sides is just a bunch of brain fog and feel good talk.


I do not think you absorbed the above quote correctly. A mechanism other than the slave's mind is essentially meaningless in binding her to your will, unless of course you're speaking of non-consensual slavery plying those with no choice. ???

quote:


No, you really don't. To be a slave Master, it's enough simply to own a slave. Now being a good Master, that is a whole 'nother kettle of fish...


I completely disagree.

This might have been true in older days when all one had to do was purchase a slave and be legally allowed to own one, but in this Western society, where one meets another in equal social status, it is important to know thine instruments of will forwards and backwards in the visceral sense. Goose stepping to hip BDSM mantras or counter-culture is meaningless and trivial. You must be well versed in trapping the heart and mind, of fostering internal slavery in another before physical binds and the stratagems of collateral are imposed upon them; otherwise a collar is just a collar and a title (in either case) is just a title and very little more than that. Witness how so many "Masters" become slaves to the very girls they once supposedly owned.

quote:

Dominance has very little to do with being a slave Master. Some who are dominant also own slaves. Some who own slaves are also dominant...one, however, is not required of the other.
Taggard


Huh? So one need not be dominant to seek and procure a slave out of the free? And that a slave needn't be under a dominant, controlling personality to have her slavery realized in the flesh? Hmm...

< Message edited by amayos -- 2/16/2006 5:11:36 PM >

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: master/slave - 2/16/2006 5:13:22 PM   
gbgirlz2003


Posts: 65
Joined: 12/23/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Not in my book...Master/slave is a type of relationship. You can have casual Master/slave relationships, or you can have serious commited ones. It all depends on how serious the Master and slave want to make it.

Taggard


NO WAY !!!!!!!!
There is NOTHING casual about a Master/slave relationship. It is very serious. Now if you are talking about Top/bottom play partners being casual then OK...


_____________________________

One of Master's many sluts

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: master/slave - 2/16/2006 5:31:16 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos
This might have been true in older days when all one had to do was purchase a slave and be legally allowed to own one, but in this Western society, where one meets another in equal social status, it is important to know thine instruments of will forwards and backwards in the visceral sense.


Like many before you, you find your own brief history to be of more import than the 150 thousand years that came before.

Slavery has existed as long as man has walked on two legs. Slavery has been "illegal" in the united states since 1865. note even 200 years compared to 150,000. Slavery is something that is found in man's genetic code, and it has little (or nothing) to do with romance or trapping the heart and mind.

quote:


You must be well versed in trapping the heart and mind, of fostering internal slavery in another before physical binds and the stratagems of collateral are imposed upon them;


This sounds far more like a strategy to get a wife than a slave.

quote:


quote:

Dominance has very little to do with being a slave Master. Some who are dominant also own slaves. Some who own slaves are also dominant...one, however, is not required of the other.
Taggard


Huh? So one need not be dominant to seek and procure a slave out of the free? And that a slave needn't be under a dominant, controlling personality to have her slavery realized in the flesh? Hmm...


That's right. A slave, in the most basic sense, needs to be owned. It matters not if their owner is dominant nor controlling. It matters only that their owner own them.

I imagine what I speak of sounds quite foreign to you. You have the common notion of consensual slavery wrapped up in dominance topped off with optional floggings. But there are a strange strain of us out there that are into ownership for its own sake. Ownership without the dominance. Ownership without the painful pleasure. Simple ownership as its own reward.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: master/slave - 2/16/2006 5:35:56 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:


NO WAY !!!!!!!!
There is NOTHING casual about a Master/slave relationship. It is very serious.


Your Master/slave relationship may indeed be very serious, but it might shock you to learn that there are people who are not like you, and don't live life the exact same way you do.

I have very casual Master/slave relationships, lasting for as little as 5 hours (to as long as six months). They are rewarding, intense, and, all in all, quite delightful.

quote:


Now if you are talking about Top/bottom play partners being casual then OK...


Nope...I am talking about Master/slave relationships. I am talking about a slave signing away their rights as a human. I am talking about a Master taking full responsibility and possession of another human being. Yet doing so for a limited time, and with no intention of maintaining possession in any long term fashion.

I am talking about a different take on what a Master/slave relationship is...and how it works. You might want to try and understand what I am talking about, before declaring me wrong.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to gbgirlz2003)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: master/slave - 2/16/2006 6:06:31 PM   
Elegant


Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I have very casual Master/slave relationships, lasting for as little as 5 hours (to as long as six months). They are rewarding, intense, and, all in all, quite delightful.


One can play the role for 30 minutes, an hour, a few days..but that is all you are doing: playing a role.

To be in a Master/slave relationship you need to live as such and that precludes short-term role playing.

You can call it what you want...but there is a HUGE difference in a 5 hour playtime and a 5 year committed ownership.

_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: master/slave - 2/16/2006 6:07:49 PM   
Elegant


Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Nope...I am talking about Master/slave relationships. I am talking about a slave signing away their rights as a human. I am talking about a Master taking full responsibility and possession of another human being. Yet doing so for a limited time, and with no intention of maintaining possession in any long term fashion.


That is not ownership. That is borrowing.

_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: master/slave - 2/16/2006 6:20:33 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant
One can play the role for 30 minutes, an hour, a few days..but that is all you are doing: playing a role.


So what is the precise moment in time that it stops being a role? Does it have to be 5 years? Is 1 year long enough? Does 6 months count? BTW, who left you in charge of deciding how long someone has to do something before it stops being a role?

quote:


To be in a Master/slave relationship you need to live as such and that precludes short-term role playing.


Wow, it must be great to know everything...and have the one rule book that explains what precludes certain types of relationships.

Too bad my book says that the only thing required to be in a Master/slave relationship is that one person consider themselves the Master, and the other consider themselves the slave.

I love how open-minded this community is...*smile*


You can call it what you want...but there is a HUGE difference in a 5 hour playtime and a 5 year committed ownership.


By my calculation, that difference is is 2627995 minutes...not a single other difference is mandatory.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to Elegant)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: master/slave - 2/16/2006 6:22:20 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant

That is not ownership. That is borrowing.


So the only kind of ownership you recognize is ownership that is intended for life? You do not recognize that someone can own something for a short period of time, with the intention of owning it for a short period of time???

Kind of a narrow (and quite uncommon) definition of ownership, no?

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to Elegant)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: master/slave - 2/16/2006 6:23:28 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
Slavery has existed as long as man has walked on two legs. Slavery has been "illegal" in the united states since 1865. note even 200 years compared to 150,000.


Where's the argument here? ???


quote:

Slavery is something that is found in man's genetic code, and it has little (or nothing) to do with romance or trapping the heart and mind.


Again, I don't think I was understood correctly, or you like to beat a dead horse. The only way to make a slave a slave is through such forms as the heart and mind before leading to more physical collateral—legal and societal support is vacant. Without these points being met, your "slave" is not a slave, but a consensual submissive.


quote:


You must be well versed in trapping the heart and mind, of fostering internal slavery in another before physical binds and the stratagems of collateral are imposed upon them;


This sounds far more like a strategy to get a wife than a slave.



No, to get a wife one goes by traditional, culturally accepted folkways and religious tradition.




quote:

You have the common notion of consensual slavery wrapped up in dominance topped off with optional floggings.


Completely incorrect. Trust me, I'm an expert on what I think. :D


quote:

But there are a strange strain of us out there that are into ownership for its own sake. Ownership without the dominance. Ownership without the painful pleasure. Simple ownership as its own reward.

Taggard


Ownership and control go hand in hand. Dominance (dominion/sway/authority) is inherent in this dynamic, however you dissect it.

< Message edited by amayos -- 2/16/2006 6:25:48 PM >

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: master/slave - 2/16/2006 6:30:26 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

The only way to make a slave a slave is through such forms as the heart and mind before leading to more physical collateral—


The Master does not make the slave. The slave is made in the womb and on the playground, long before the Master is even in the picture. The Master simply collects the slave as the slave is ready. We live in a cultured society, no? *laughing*



quote:


No, to get a wife one goes by traditional, culturally accepted folkways and religious tradition.


And you described one of the most traditional. Show a woman you are leader and she is follower and she will follow you home, heart and mind at your disposal.


quote:


quote:

I imagine what I speak of sounds quite foreign to you. You have the common notion of consensual slavery wrapped up in dominance topped off with optional floggings.


Completely incorrect. Trust me, I'm an expert on what I think. :D


Then it is at communicating what you think that you are inexpert.

quote:

Ownership and control go hand in hand. Dominance (dominion/sway/authority) is inherent in this dynamic, however you dissect it.


Not true and quite simple to prove. Silent partners have ownership but no control. Minority stockholders have ownership, but no control. I could go on, but I hope you see my point. Ownership is not something made up by the BDSM world. It has a real objective meaning and can't be twisted about to suit some romantic fantasy.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 40
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