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Consent - a Universal principle? - 2/15/2006 7:31:16 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Within the lifestyle a couple particular terms have become a common foundation for many.

IE SSC (SAFE, SANE, CONSENT) and RACK(Risk Aware Consensual KinK)


Consent being the common theme between the two. It appears by many that consent is a particular neccessary requirement, so much so that it could even be consider to be universally required. It is a rarity that I have see anyone ever express an opinion that would be contray to a principle of consent.

For example.

In another thread a Top stated that anytime a person enters into subspace and is unable to communicate to continue play or even to communicate a stop to play.... Play will be stopped because consent is no longer being present! I myself and know many others that play very much in this situation.... that even thou consent at the moment is not immediate, it has been give prior too and is expected that the bottom will reach this level of non-communciation and that play will stop when I decide to stop. The cavet being that I return the bottom in an unharmed condition! Given to me unharmed and returned as such.

So my question is... what is consent to you. what is required for consent to exist. What can be consented to.. what can't be consented to. Legally in many jurisdictions much of what some individauls do can't be consented too, but yet we do them anyways. Where is your line of consent? is there any universality to consent? or is it quickly become individual the moment we get beyond the surface of it.

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RE: Consent - a Universal principle? - 2/15/2006 7:46:08 PM   
slaveladyj


Posts: 161
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline 		Consent can be taken for granted in some situations. In a way, being here gives consent, makes it clear that someone is looking, seeking and willing. In many relationships, and here it's opinion is limited as it doesn't live full time as a sub/slave, again consent is mostly already given, and one party clearly agreed at the onset. However, in other cases, if one doesn't have the willing consent of a partner, one is guilty of rape. But that is just this humble person opinion.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: Consent - a Universal principle? - 2/15/2006 8:27:08 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
what is required for consent to exist. What can be consented to..

In rough terms, a reasonable understanding and agreement to the proposal, free of negative consequences if denied.
quote:


what can't be consented to. Legally in many jurisdictions much of what some individauls do can't be consented too, but yet we do them anyways. Where is your line of consent?

Mine is hinged pretty much on the UNDERSTANDING part. Ethically I try and make sure the person I am with really understands and is ok with what will go on. Since I'm not a veangeful or bratty person I don't have to worry about the negative consequences part, but there's a lot of not nice people out there who will force consent with a "Do this or..." which IMO isn't free consent at all.
quote:


is there any universality to consent? or is it quickly become individual the moment we get beyond the surface of it.

The really BAD part is that a person can say yes to it, through it and after it...and then later hang the person out to dry and say it was really all abusive.

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RE: Consent - a Universal principle? - 2/15/2006 8:41:29 PM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		I give my consent to Master when we're about to "play". But we have an understanding... if he says my name.. and it takes me anything past 1 min to answer.. i'm too far gone for consent.. so it's time to return me to planet earth...


having trust that he doesn't attempt to further..... priceless....



< Message edited by truesub4u -- 2/15/2006 8:42:10 PM >

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RE: Consent - a Universal principle? - 2/15/2006 8:48:36 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u

I give my consent to Master when we're about to "play". But we have an understanding... if he says my name.. and it takes me anything past 1 min to answer.. i'm too far gone for consent.. so it's time to return me to planet earth...


having trust that he doesn't attempt to further..... priceless....

See for me that's the sign that everything's groovy and keep on truckin. Just don't expect a response. For me when somethings wrong INSIDE myself, I express it. When somethings wrong OUTSIDE myself, well, that's up for the top to watch for at that point.

Everyone plays differently.


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RE: Consent - a Universal principle? - 2/15/2006 9:15:08 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
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quote:



So my question is... what is consent to you. what is required for consent to exist.


A meeting of minds between knowledgable & reasoning adults, adults being objective (18 and over in my area) and not subjective (maturity levels). By that definition, I would not play with someone who couldn't consent regardless of their age due to alcohol, drugs, mental impairments etc.

quote:

What can be consented to.. what can't be consented to. Legally in many jurisdictions much of what some individauls do can't be consented too, but yet we do them anyways.


Legal issues aside, reasoning adults can consent to damn near anything they want. I believe in 'an it harm none, do what you will.' If I only played within what the legal system would treat as consensual, I'd have to give up at least 50% of my favorite activities and I'm not willing to do that for any government. I am not a law abiding citizen when it comes to what happens in my bedroom. If I have to suffer the consquences of that choice, so be it, I will and I won't whine about it either although I will fight tooth and nail not to go to jail for having fun.

quote:

Where is your line of consent?


I 'think' my statements above have already addressed it. Adult, unimpaired, yadda, yadda. Certainly going into subspace is a goal for me when Himself allows it, so that would 'not' mean I've withdrawn my consent, it means we're just getting to the good parts!

quote:

is there any universality to consent? or is it quickly become individual the moment we get beyond the surface of it.


I 'wish' there were, but the truth is, we've already had enough killers out there who incorporate BDSM into their killing sprees that proves it's not. Nice pipe dream, though. In the real world, away from fantasy land, people cross lines and hard limits every day. Spirits and bodies become broken because of it, and people die. That's a fact and no matter how you white wash it, BDSM is at the core of some of it and much of it is done on purpose, no accident at all and certainly without consent.

I just knew you were going to start this thread. ::chuckles::

Celeste



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He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Consent - a Universal principle? - 2/16/2006 8:29:37 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		For me, I feel that consent is possible when the person has a good understanding of what might happen and feels the positives and negatives balance in a way that is acceptable to them. I also think that consent needs to be something that can be withdrawn when that balance is too out of whack for the person.

I don't think most people actively give consent for anything in life. They just accept things as they are until things are too out of balance for them to accept it. We see this with legal codes and elections -- until things are too imbalanced most people just cruise along with things either living within the laws or breaking them secretly.

One of the things I like about contemporary BDSM is that we work on getting active consent. I personally think that's healthier for everyone involved and makes it more likely a relationship with 1) succeed and 2) be good for everyone involved.

Because of my past, I probably find active consent more necessary than some others might. If I got the feeling that Fox wasn't aware of the fact that he could wallk out of the house and our relationship I wouldn't be comfortable with him as my slave. It is very important to me that it be a choice.

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RE: Consent - a Universal principle? - 2/16/2006 8:48:17 AM   
yourMissTress


Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

a Top stated that anytime a person enters into subspace and is unable to communicate to continue play or even to communicate a stop to play


This is usually the goal of a session (pain play, cbt, ect..) for me and a sub. This is where they want to be (usually for the endorphins), and where I want them for various reasons. Why would I stop when I have them right where I want them? I know very well what the limits, pain thresholds, and desires are for anyone that I play with, so I consider subspace to be consentual. UNLESS they lose consciousness, which has happened on more than one occasion. At that point everything stops.

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Tress


"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother


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RE: Consent - a Universal principle? - 2/16/2006 10:07:54 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		Speaking only for myself

For me consent is given the moment I enter into a relationship with someone ( I am not going to define what relationship means for me though ) I don't feel that I have to actually sit down and discuss every little thing that is going to happen, mainly because when I commit to someone, I am already letting them know that I trust them fully not to do harm to me. And since I don't do casual play or scenes of any kind, it's a given that for a relationship to evolve into one that would require consent of this type...I would have to trust and know my partner a lot. And vice versa. ( Not sure if that made any sense at all )

In response to your where your question came from though...the only way I could accept that my partner stopped play is if he saw that there was something going on with me at a certain moment that he KNEW to not be right. Again, it all comes back to trust, and how well you know each other. Personally, I perfer to be pushed past that area of space where I am incapable of coherent thought...sort of like a circle...pain, pleasure, space, pleasure, and back to pain again.

The line would be crossed only if he did something deliberatly at this time that he knew would be extremely harmful to me. But again, it comes back to trust, and how well you know each other.


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RE: Consent - a Universal principle? - 2/16/2006 11:21:25 AM   
Slipstreme


Posts: 817
Joined: 1/1/2006
Status: offline 		For me concent is simply their willingness to play. Unfortunately, when I Top though, if a scene goes foul, this makes me feel like shit, especially with my skunk. I feel as if I failed them and betrayed their trust. I feel as if I went too far, etc.

As a bottom, my concent goes as far as my hard limits and play I dislike. That is all. For the most part I want to be brought to the point I can no longer take any more sensation, regardless of whether or not I reach subspace.

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RE: Consent - a Universal principle? - 2/16/2006 12:21:33 PM   
MsIncognito


Posts: 742
Joined: 5/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

See for me that's the sign that everything's groovy and keep on truckin. Just don't expect a response. For me when somethings wrong INSIDE myself, I express it. When somethings wrong OUTSIDE myself, well, that's up for the top to watch for at that point.

Everyone plays differently.



Same here and its rather disappointing when the Top stops at that point because it's just getting really good. I can appear to be "gone" and snap back to it within a split second if something is off...but the Top has to know me well enough to know that and trust that I will express myself if something is wrong. I have never experienced the type of subspace that some subs claim to where they have little or no memory of what happens once they go into space. If that happened to me, I'd not bother since half the fun is relishing the little details after the fact.

< Message edited by MsIncognito -- 2/16/2006 12:23:00 PM >

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RE: Consent - a Universal principle? - 2/16/2006 5:14:52 PM   
PlayfulOne


Posts: 1047
Status: offline 		If I stopped when she went into subspace I would have one rather unhappy lilttle girl. She is mine so her consent has long been given but I wouldn't pull anything out which I know would be against her limits. Anyone else, terms and limits are discussed before hand and stayed within.

K

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RE: Consent - a Universal principle? - 2/16/2006 6:42:12 PM   
ChainedExistence


Posts: 507
Joined: 2/5/2005
Status: offline 		Consent is whatever the parties involved decide it should be...it could be a formal contract of do's and don'ts, an on-going reassessment of what's ok and what isn't, or it can be a simple " anything goes" born of basic understanding of your partner's core values and beliefs. None of those is better or worse, it's more about personal preference. When Master and I were first getting to know one another, I liked the give and take of talking things over. Not that he laid out every plan in advance to get my personal line item consent, but I knew the general direction. As we've grown together, I feel comfortable that he will make sound choices based on what he knows about me. I have faith in him to push where he sees fit. There are times when I am not able to give or withdraw consent, and I have to be secure in the fact that he is ever diligent in his responsibilities to me, and to us.

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RE: Consent - a Universal principle? - 2/16/2006 8:05:43 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne

If I stopped when she went into subspace I would have one rather unhappy lilttle girl. She is mine so her consent has long been given but I wouldn't pull anything out which I know would be against her limits. Anyone else, terms and limits are discussed before hand and stayed within.

K

There are lots of tops and doms who ENJOY pulling their sub/bottom out of subspace just to make them go through that frustration and learn to enjoy it as a reward, not as a given.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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