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How do you define "Property?" - 7/3/2009 4:04:30 AM   
Goddess2002


Posts: 226
Joined: 2/29/2008
Status: offline 		If you view your sub or slave as property....how do you define it? Meaning, is that individual merely an object in your eyes, do you view them as one would a pet, or do you actually have an emotional connection that could be described as loving, caring, etc?
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RE: How do you define "Property?" - 7/3/2009 4:21:08 AM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline 		If there wasn't an emotional connection, I wouldn't wanna own her.... And since there is that connection, that gives her a greater value than normal material possessions. Therefore, there's a lot more to a D/s ownership dynamic than merely objectification, too!

Other than that, she's mine to use as I see fit - ie, *property* (but with a reasonable expectation of something in return).

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to Goddess2002)
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RE: How do you define "Property?" - 7/3/2009 8:00:40 AM   
Drakontos


Posts: 167
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Goddess2002

If you view your sub or slave as property....how do you define it? Meaning, is that individual merely an object in your eyes, do you view them as one would a pet, or do you actually have an emotional connection that could be described as loving, caring, etc?

zaphira can not answer in complete confidence for Master himself; but she can give her own insight as to how it feels to be his property.
The best way to describe it would be to say that zaphira can be compared to a piece of furniture ( in describing what property might mean in this discussion ). Master literally bought and paid for zaphira ( in a certain context ), making this slave his property. zaphira is owned by Master. Period; that is all that there is to it.

zaphira and Master do not share an emotional bond; that is not what our relationship is about. Neither do we share a sexual relationship; it is purely platonic with occassional hugs and kisses on the cheek thrown in once in awhile.
zaphira is a servant in Master's home; a slave in the purest sense of the word while still managing to remain legal. Property.

_____________________________

Drakontos
zaphira

Live with honor; serve with grace and beauty

(in reply to Goddess2002)
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RE: How do you define "Property?" - 7/3/2009 8:18:37 AM   
sweetgirlserves


Posts: 373
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline
quote:


zaphira and Master do not share an emotional bond; that is not what our relationship is about.



Do you mean that you are not in love with each other?  I can understand that.  But I am sure there is some type of emotional connection between the two of you.  There is some reason that he chose you to be his property, and some reason that you chose him to be your owner, and being human... i would think some type of 'emotional draw' was involved in that determination. 

~sgs


_____________________________

"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." ~Maya Angelou

(in reply to Drakontos)
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RE: How do you define "Property?" - 7/3/2009 10:36:51 AM   
RobertSmits


Posts: 4
Joined: 7/8/2008
Status: offline 		You can't poses humans,
neither legally nor morally.

For those outlaws who aren't morally either:
Captivity is still no slavery (do some jail), slavery is a state of mind and the more you have to destroy in the unwilling mind the less human remains.
Start with some Sheep and work up to Shepherd instead if thats your game.
(Mindfuck gooooooddd, mindrape bbbaaaaaaaddddddd, grin)

Besides,
More rewarding are people who willingly hand over the authority over parts and aspects of their lives to you.
The more authority they hand over, the greater the gift you are recieving.
The size of the gift equals the extent of responsibility it brings to you.

So to me:
- first thought - do I act according to my responsibilities ? All essential needs taken care of ?
- second - do we both ON AVERAGE get the same amount of "reward" (kicks, happiness you name it) out of the relationship ?
(at times big "sacrifices" are needed to generate modest joy, grin, comes with the package)
If yes/yes I unpack it with shiny eyes and enjoy it to the full extent.

The way I look at my "property" is therefore a mix of loving and attentive, with a dash of pride and gratitude.

For the cynical amongst us:
Yes, like a very exclusive car,
check gas, oil, brakes,
kick the tires and enjoy the ride -
And don't crash it through a brick wall just to see what happens or show you dare,
it won't reflect how the car was, it only proves the insanity of the driver.

N'oblesse oblige.

Robert.

(in reply to sweetgirlserves)
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RE: How do you define "Property?" - 7/3/2009 11:59:01 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Goddess2002

If you view your sub or slave as property....how do you define it? Meaning, is that individual merely an object in your eyes, do you view them as one would a pet, or do you actually have an emotional connection that could be described as loving, caring, etc?

Like Focus, I have reached the point in my life where I don't want to be involved in any form whatsoever on either a short-term or long-term basis that I don't have some sort of emotional connection with.  If I don't know the submissive who comes up to me at the club who has watched me play with someone I do know and she wants to play, then she is going to have to get to know me and I am going to have to get to know her first.  I really don't want to do casual, no-knowledge-except-of-the-kink things anymore.
With all that said...I have moved more towards wanting to be the owner in any D/s or M/s dynamic I enter into.  I want the responsibility for her feelings (the emotional aspect), for building her up(emotional), for knowing her inside and out(emotional), for giving her "partner-love"(really emotional) and for her sexuality (ownership, control), for her service (ownership, control), for whatever objectivation does occur whether it be as a sexual object, a social object, a planner, whatever works for us (ownership, control).  
Note that I said "whatever works for us".  I am not into ownership of a doormat.  I am not into "ownership" of a brat.  One seems too easy and one seems like too much trouble.  Additionally, I am honest enough to say that as much as I admire Mercnbeth, I am not sure I am up to that level of ownership nor do I deal with submissives that approach beth's level of slavery.  But of the submissives I deal with as friends, the ones I've known for awhile and have played with, the ones I've known and not played with I have found myself mentally calculating which of them would fit into an ownership of the type I envision...not because I am trying to see which is the best fit but more of an instructional tool for myself.  Several of them readily admit that while they are submissive, they are not into the whole concept of "ownership", partially because they have strong feelings against objectification except in a very narrow context.  That narrow context does not work so well for me anymore.  I want to feel as though whatever capacity I choose to make an exercise in objectification for whatever period of time, my partner will go along with it because of all the other that resides on the other side of that objectification arena.

(in reply to Goddess2002)
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RE: How do you define "Property?" - 7/3/2009 1:06:58 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		while objectification and other dehumanizing elements may be part of the dynamic, i am always his beloved. the moment the emotional aspects dissipate, and my presence is more akin to meat or merely an effigy of sorts for his use and amusement without regard for my well being, we will part company. i believe ownership encompasses many things that extend far beyond the labels affiliated with it. my personal preference is chattel. i just like the way it rolls from my lips.

porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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RE: How do you define "Property?" - 7/3/2009 7:13:01 PM   
sweetsub1957


Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakontos


The best way to describe it would be to say that zaphira can be compared to a piece of furniture ( in describing what property might mean in this discussion ). Master literally bought and paid for zaphira ( in a certain context ), making this slave his property. zaphira is owned by Master. Period; that is all that there is to it.

zaphira and Master do not share an emotional bond; that is not what our relationship is about. Neither do we share a sexual relationship; it is purely platonic with occassional hugs and kisses on the cheek thrown in once in awhile.
zaphira is a servant in Master's home; a slave in the purest sense of the word while still managing to remain legal. Property.


Wow.  I'm glad that works for you.  I know I couldn't do that.....I NEED that emotional bond, physical closeness,etc.  I'd whither and die without it.

_____________________________

Member: Lance's Fag Hags.

"That's not just a chip on her shoulder, that's the whole potato!" ~Lady Angelika~

In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

(in reply to Drakontos)
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RE: How do you define "Property?" - 7/4/2009 7:27:19 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		A lot of the time nowadays, I view Carol primarily as my slave (as opposed to my wife who happens to obey me). A slave, by definition, is a human that is owned. So yes, there is an ownership dynamic within our relationship. That has nothing whatsoever to do with objectification. What I own is a slave which is a sub category of human not object. The fact that she is my slave (and even more importantly, continues to seek to be moreso daily) doesn't cause me to stop loving her. That's kind of an incredible thought in my mind. To me it goes the other way around and I love her more.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Goddess2002)
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RE: How do you define "Property?" - 7/4/2009 8:09:49 AM   
Drakontos


Posts: 167
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Do you mean that you are not in love with each other? I can understand that. But I am sure there is some type of emotional connection between the two of you. There is some reason that he chose you to be his property, and some reason that you chose him to be your owner, and being human... i would think some type of 'emotional draw' was involved in that determination.

~sgs

You are correct; zaphira does not feel the romantic and emotional love that many associate with long term relationships. Naturally, zaphira can not answer in regards as to how Master feels about his property. *grins*
As for whether or not there is some sort of 'emotional connection' between us; all zaphira can say is that for her, the answer is no. Admiration, respect and trust yes; but feelings of 'caring' or love, no.
zaphira did not choose to beg Master's collar because she had feelings for him; this slave did so because Master was what zaphira was looking for in an owner.

_____________________________

Drakontos
zaphira

Live with honor; serve with grace and beauty

(in reply to sweetgirlserves)
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RE: How do you define "Property?" - 7/4/2009 8:11:48 AM   
Drakontos


Posts: 167
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Wow. I'm glad that works for you. I know I couldn't do that.....I NEED that emotional bond, physical closeness,etc. I'd whither and die without it.

*grins*
It is wonderful, is it not, that relationships between individuals can be so versatile?

_____________________________

Drakontos
zaphira

Live with honor; serve with grace and beauty

(in reply to sweetsub1957)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: How do you define "Property?" - 7/4/2009 9:20:22 AM   
sweetgirlserves


Posts: 373
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakontos

quote:

Do you mean that you are not in love with each other? I can understand that. But I am sure there is some type of emotional connection between the two of you. There is some reason that he chose you to be his property, and some reason that you chose him to be your owner, and being human... i would think some type of 'emotional draw' was involved in that determination.

~sgs

You are correct; zaphira does not feel the romantic and emotional love that many associate with long term relationships. Naturally, zaphira can not answer in regards as to how Master feels about his property. *grins*
As for whether or not there is some sort of 'emotional connection' between us; all zaphira can say is that for her, the answer is no. Admiration, respect and trust yes; but feelings of 'caring' or love, no.
zaphira did not choose to beg Master's collar because she had feelings for him; this slave did so because Master was what zaphira was looking for in an owner.


Hello zaphira,
I do understand what you mean when you say that you did not choose to beg your Master's collar because of feelings, but rather because it was the quality of the man himself that compelled you wish him to be your owner.  There certainly are a variety of M/s relationships and although 'love slaves' are the ones most people aspire to, it is certainly not for everyone.   For some it is more comforting and 'stabilizing' (for lack of a better term) to feel owned rather than loved.  Honestly, in my own mind, i go back and forth with which i need more.  (and yes, it is a need, not a want).  Personally, i do feel the need to be owned first and foremost.   If that ownership is not set in concrete, then i do not feel secure.  After that, i would like to know that he loves me too... but if that love ever detracted from his ownership, it would destroy the relationship, because once i know i can manipulate him, the security ends for me.

Thank you for sharing your perspective.

~sgs


_____________________________

"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." ~Maya Angelou

(in reply to Drakontos)
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RE: How do you define "Property?" - 7/4/2009 9:42:16 AM   
sweetsub1957


Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakontos

quote:

Wow. I'm glad that works for you. I know I couldn't do that.....I NEED that emotional bond, physical closeness,etc. I'd whither and die without it.

*grins*
It is wonderful, is it not, that relationships between individuals can be so versatile?


Yes, it is.  :)

_____________________________

Member: Lance's Fag Hags.

"That's not just a chip on her shoulder, that's the whole potato!" ~Lady Angelika~

In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

(in reply to Drakontos)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: How do you define "Property?" - 7/4/2009 10:39:52 AM   
inkSecret


Posts: 83
Joined: 3/4/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Goddess2002

If you view your sub or slave as property....how do you define it? Meaning, is that individual merely an object in your eyes, do you view them as one would a pet, or do you actually have an emotional connection that could be described as loving, caring, etc?


For me, the question is subjective.  A slave to me is Human Property.  She is as much of a tool as a Sniper is.  She is a human that is used for function.  When she's training with me, cooking, updating my calendar, or any other operative activity.  She's a tool, property to me.  And I expect her to be as flawless as a device.

However, when she makes me laugh, or we make Love.  That's where she's most human to me.

There are people, no matter BDSM or no that treat people like objects.  Rich men with escorts, or your boss that expects you to function as a working unit.  It's no different there than it is in a Slave Master or Dominant Submissive relationship.

Personally, you can rather burn off your own hand than to lose some objects (like that precious Labrynth VHS tape with David Bowie?), especially with sentimental value.

A slave to me is the same.


_____________________________

Stop asking questions only you can answer
There's no standard to adhere to
We dominate and submit as we choose

You can't ask us
What's right for me?
We're not you

Decide your level of involvement
Find yourself
It's your decision

(in reply to Goddess2002)
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RE: How do you define "Property?" - 7/4/2009 1:31:48 PM   
aldompdx


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		I own my feelings. If I feel connected with another, I own my feeling of connection.
Otherwise, ownership is an intellectual concept of law, to include or exclude others with prejudice.

We are temporary guests on this earth, until we merge back into it.
We can only own what we can take with us in the end.
Until then, everything else is shared.

(in reply to inkSecret)
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RE: How do you define "Property?" - 7/5/2009 1:54:07 AM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Goddess2002

If you view your sub or slave as property....how do you define it? Meaning, is that individual merely an object in your eyes, do you view them as one would a pet, or do you actually have an emotional connection that could be described as loving, caring, etc?


I define "property" as anything I have a sovereign, recognized right to do with as I wish. If something is my "property", then no one but myself has any say-so in what I do with it, so long as I don't impinge on anyone else's property.

That being said, it is legally impossible for someone to be "property", since the moment they revoke their consent, my "right" to them goes poof, and there's nothing I can do about it. In first-world countries, possessing another person as "property" is a game of mutual make-believe, unless you are extremely powerful or are already somewhat "off-radar".



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RE: How do you define "Property?" - 7/5/2009 5:08:49 AM   
Goddess2002


Posts: 226
Joined: 2/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


quote:

ORIGINAL: Goddess2002

If you view your sub or slave as property....how do you define it? Meaning, is that individual merely an object in your eyes, do you view them as one would a pet, or do you actually have an emotional connection that could be described as loving, caring, etc?


I define "property" as anything I have a sovereign, recognized right to do with as I wish. If something is my "property", then no one but myself has any say-so in what I do with it, so long as I don't impinge on anyone else's property.

That being said, it is legally impossible for someone to be "property", since the moment they revoke their consent, my "right" to them goes poof, and there's nothing I can do about it. In first-world countries, possessing another person as "property" is a game of mutual make-believe, unless you are extremely powerful or are already somewhat "off-radar".





Right...of course we can't legally own another human as property...im just wondering among Masters to what extent are their subs/slaves objectified if they do view the individual as property. Where do they draw the line between objectification and to what extent do they seek an emotional connection? Truthfully it's a term I struggle to understand the meaning of when applied to a dynamic between human beings.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
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RE: How do you define "Property?" - 7/5/2009 7:29:15 AM   
Drakontos


Posts: 167
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline 		Hmm, perhaps zaphira can better explain her role as property, and why she thinks of herself in this way.

Master views ownership of property in a very extreme way; it's as close to real slavery as you can get, and still remain legal. ( Please, zaphira is not interested in hearing all the debates about 'legalities'; this is Master's way of doing things, and it is a way that zaphira finds most comfortable. )

Master spent over a year talking with zaphira about what he wanted, needed, expected, demanded, and yes, deserved, when it came to property that he owned. In this year, zaphira was told exactly what she would have to give up, to become his property. This slave gave up her career, sold her car, and transferred the title to her house and the ownership of stocks over to Master on the exact day that she begged for his collar. These were things that Master had demanded be done if zaphira was serious about becoming his. Any and all money that zaphira had was given to Master. This slave literally went to him with nothing. When she got to Master's home in Colorado, Master burned all zaphira's clothing. zaphira was left with nothing; in the literal sense.

The only things that zaphira was promised when she begged Master's collar was food in her belly, a roof over her head, and medical/health insurance. Nothing more; everything and anythng else, zaphira had to earn through her service to Master.

No promises ever have been made; not in the beginning, and not since being collared; that included emotional entanglements of any kind. zaphira does not need, or want, Master's love. All this slave needs and wants is his continued ownership.

zaphira is not treated as a pet, she is not treated as special, she is not treated as a princess, she is not treated as a significant other, she is not treated as a girl friend. zaphira is property. This slave is treated as a possession of Master's; something he owns, and takes care to 'keep in good running order'. We do not celebrate zaphira's birthday, Master does not see Valentine's day as a day for zaphira to be pampered; and he does not introduce his property to others as anything other than what zaphira is. zaphira has only one right in this relationship; that is the right to make the decision to stay or leave. This slave gave up all other's when she begged this collar.

This slave is property; she is owned by another; and it was done and is maintained without any emotional baggage/feelings/expectations. zaphira stays because being property gives her the feelings of security and safety that this slave enjoys.

zaphira rambled a bit; she is sorry about that.

_____________________________

Drakontos
zaphira

Live with honor; serve with grace and beauty

(in reply to Goddess2002)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: How do you define "Property?" - 7/5/2009 11:12:00 AM   
AislynLass


Posts: 56
Joined: 7/5/2009
Status: offline 		I know the dynamic for everyone's relationship is different and indvidual to them. I just felt a twinge of concern at your signing over and selling your property, stocks, car, etc. in such an irrevocable manner. I admire your ability to trust in him to such an extent that he will always see to your needs being met. Unfortunately, I had an experience where my trust was betrayed by a man who believed I could trust, deciding to break that trust and not respect something that had been agreed to prior as a hard limit. Needless to say, this ended our relationship. As I read your post, I admit I shuddered a little at the thought of what-if had I done as you have done in terms of turning over my financial means to him. I definitely wish you the best and sincerely hope that you never find your trust to have been misplaced.

_____________________________

Aislyn

Life is short. bend the rules, forgive quicky, kiss slowly, love truly, laugh uncontrollably, and never regret anything that made you smile.

(in reply to Drakontos)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: How do you define "Property?" - 7/5/2009 11:32:24 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, I see slaves as property, no, not as objects, and no, not (usually) as pets.  Slaves are human property, and you pretty much have to see them as humans if you expect to derive their full value.  What makes them property is that they have submitted themselves to be managed, and are managed as one would manage any personal/household asset, with all of the responsibilities that that implies. 

What kind of asset they are depends on their on unique mixture of talents, abilities, and drives.  The better their master is able to comprehend what those are, and utilize them, the more valuable they will be as a slave.  In the real world if keeping slaves in your house, it's seldom realistic that a girl is only good for being a pet-like fuck toy that's chained when not in use.  It would have to be a supremely vacuous human to only be good for fuck-toy duty, and probably a human who would be more trouble than they are worth after the new wore off. 

The reality of keeping slaves full time is that they become slave members of the household.  They are kept under discipline, and serve their masters obediently while participating in the day-to-day of what goes on in any household.  Anyone who tells you much different doesn't have much actual experience, and is still living in fantasy land.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Goddess2002)
Profile   Post #: 20
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