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RE: Israelis used human shields. Palestinians did not - 7/3/2009 7:25:25 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

An investigation released by Amnesty International brings further confirmation that Israel used human shields in the Gaza conflict, while finding no evidence that the Palestinians used human shields.


Well, having blown up most of their under 26 year olds....I'd presume they're running short of flesh and blood barricades.

Trying to find Nirvana while carving yourself up (via a variety of nails enveloped with a belt full of C4) like a Christmas tree....wait...ahhemmmm....hold on.....like a December, non denominational festivity that involved copious amounts of food (and shitloads of mashed potatoes and gravy....and nails....and C4)....just seems incredibly stupid to me.

Christians did worse (but they didn't have the technology back then they do now)....would have likely done worse still....but....

That's old hat.....it's done....it's over....people are assholes....history shows that over and over again.....

Let's just get the fuck over it.

Ya know?

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 7/3/2009 7:52:01 PM >

(in reply to KaineD)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Israelis used human shields. Palestinians did not - 7/4/2009 4:09:02 AM   
KaineD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

From the horses mouth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y


That is an old clip that doesn't apply to the conflict that took place this year.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Israelis used human shields. Palestinians did not - 7/4/2009 4:10:14 AM   
KaineD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Actually the report says Hamas did exactly the same thing the IDF did. The report is quite explicit that both groups attacked from civilian occupied buildings. AI for some reasons calls it 'human shields' when the IDF did it but not when Hamas did it.


I'd like to see a direct quote from the report that confirms this, please.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Israelis used human shields. Palestinians did not - 7/4/2009 4:17:48 AM   
KaineD


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More from the BBC. DomKen, every source I have read states that the report says there is no evidence Hamas used human shields.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8128210.stm

quote:

Israel committed war crimes and carried out reckless attacks and acts of wanton destruction in its Gaza offensive, an independent human rights report says.

Hundreds of Palestinian civilians were killed using high-precision weapons, while others were shot at close range, the group Amnesty International says.

Its report also calls rocket attacks by Palestinian militants war crimes and accuses Hamas of endangering civilians.

The Israeli military says its conduct was in line with international law.

Israel has attributed some civilian deaths to "professional mistakes", but has dismissed wider criticism that its attacks were indiscriminate and disproportionate.

Amnesty says some 1,400 Palestinians were killed in the 22-day Israeli offensive between 27 December 2008 and 17 January 2009, which agrees broadly with Palestinian figures.

GAZA REPORT
Amnesty International report on Operation 'Cast Lead'
Download the reader here
More than 900 of these were civilians, including 300 children and 115 women, it says.

In March, Israel's military said the overall Palestinian death toll was 1,166, of whom 295 were "uninvolved" civilians.

Pattern

The 117-page report by Amnesty International says many of the hundreds of civilian deaths in the conflict "cannot simply be dismissed as 'collateral damage' incidental to otherwise lawful attacks - or as mistakes".

It says "disturbing questions" remain unanswered as to why children playing on roofs and medical staff attending the wounded were killed by "highly accurate missiles" whose operators had detailed views of their targets.


GAZA CIVILIAN DEATHS

Children: 300
Women: 115
Men over 50: 85
Civilian men under 50: 200
Non-combatant police: 240
Total: 940
Source: Amnesty International


Gaza conflict: Who is a civilian?
Gaza case studies: Weapons use
Lives were lost because Israeli forces "frequently obstructed access to medical care," the report says. It also reiterates previous condemnations of the use of "imprecise" weapons such as white phosphorous and artillery shells.

The destruction of homes, businesses and public buildings was in many cases "wanton and deliberate" and "could not be justified on the grounds of military necessity", the report adds.

"All of those things occurred on a scale that constitutes pattern - and constitutes war crimes," Donatella Rovera, who headed the research, told the BBC.

The document also gives details of several cases where it says people - including women and children posing no threat to troops - were shot at close range as they were fleeing their homes in search of shelter.

Israeli officials responded saying the military targeted only areas where Palestinian militants were operating, and accused Hamas of turning civilian neighbourhoods into "war zones".

"We tried to be as surgical as is humanly possible in a difficult combat situation," Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev told the BBC.

Human shields

The Amnesty report says no evidence was found that Palestinian militants had forced civilians to stay in buildings being used for military purposes, contradicting Israeli claims that Hamas repeatedly used "human shields".

However, Amnesty says Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups had endangered Palestinian civilians by firing rockets from residential neighbourhoods and storing weapons in them.

It says local residents had in one case told researchers that Hamas fighters had fired a rocket from the yard of a government school.

The Israeli military has repeatedly blamed Hamas for causing civilian casualties, saying its fighters operated from buildings like schools, medical facilities, religious institutions, residential homes and commercial premises.

In the cases it had investigated, Amnesty said civilian deaths "could not be explained as resulting from the presence of fighters shielding among civilians, as the Israeli army generally contends".

However, Amnesty does accuse Israel of using civilians, including children, as human shields in Gaza, forcing them to remain in houses which its troops were using as military positions, and to inspect sites suspected of being booby trapped.

It also says Palestinian militants rocket fire from the Gaza Strip was "indiscriminate and hence unlawful under international law", although it only rarely caused civilian casualties.

Hamas leader in Gaza Ismail Haniya declined to comment on the Amnesty International criticism, but said: "We believe the leaders of the occupation state must be tried for these crimes."

Thirteen Israelis were killed, including three civilians, during the offensive, which Israel launched with the declared aim of curtailing cross-border rocket attacks.


So the report says that while Hamas endangered civilian lives, they did not use human shields.

Israel, however, purposefully used Palestinian civilians, including children, as human shields.

Some months ago, when this was flipped around, and people simply took the IDF's word that Hamas used human shields, the outrage here and elsewhere was immense.

I await that same outrage directed at the Israelis, the ones who actually used human shields.

(in reply to Loki45)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Israelis used human shields. Palestinians did not - 7/4/2009 5:18:21 AM   
KaineD


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Here is the report itself.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE15/021/2009/en

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Israelis used human shields. Palestinians did not - 7/4/2009 5:22:49 AM   
JonnieBoy


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I wouldn't hang around waiting for too long Kaine, I don't reckon there will be too many takers for sounding all outraged, propaganda  being what it is and all that.

Pirate

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Israelis used human shields. Palestinians did not - 7/4/2009 5:34:11 AM   
KaineD


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Oops, that link above isn't the actual report. Here it is.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE15/015/2009/en

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Israelis used human shields. Palestinians did not - 7/4/2009 5:39:23 AM   
KaineD


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From the report...

quote:

Amnesty International, for its part, did not find evidence that Hamas or other Palestinian
groups violated the laws of war to the extent repeatedly alleged by Israel. In particular, it
found no evidence that Hamas or other fighters directed the movement of civilians to shield
military objectives from attacks. By contrast, Amnesty International did find that Israeli
forces on several occasions during Operation “Cast Lead” forced Palestinian civilians to serve
as “human shields”. In any event, international humanitarian law makes clear that use of
“human shields” by one party does not release the attacking party from its legal obligations
with respect to civilians.

Amnesty International delegates interviewed many Palestinians who complained about
Hamas’ conduct, and especially about Hamas’ repression and attacks against their
opponents, including killings, torture and arbitrary detentions,125 but did not receive any
accounts of Hamas fighters having used them as “human shields”.

In the cases investigated by Amnesty International of civilians killed in Israeli attacks, the
deaths could not be explained as resulting from the presence of fighters shielding among
civilians, as the Israel army generally contends. In all of the cases investigated by Amnesty
Israel/Gaza: Operation ‘Cast Lead’: 22 days of death and destruction
Index: MDE 15/015/2009 Amnesty International July 2009
77
International of families killed when their homes were bombed from the air by Israeli forces,
for example, none of the houses struck was being used by armed groups for military
activities. Similarly, in the cases of precision missiles or tank shells which killed civilians in
their homes, no fighters were present in the houses that were struck and Amnesty
International delegates found no indication that there had been any armed confrontations or
other military activity in the immediate vicinity at the time of the attack.

While the presence of Hamas and other fighters and weapons within civilian areas is not
contested, this in itself is not conclusive evidence of intent to use civilians as “human
shields”.


< Message edited by KaineD -- 7/4/2009 5:41:51 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Israelis used human shields. Palestinians did not - 7/4/2009 10:02:27 AM   
DomKen


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From the report
quote:

Hamas and other Palestinian groups endangered civilians by firing rockets from populated
residential neighbourhoods. In one case, local residents told Amnesty International that
Hamas fighters had fired a rocket at night from the courtyard of a government school in the
centre of Gaza City during Operation “Cast Lead”, when the schools were closed, and that the
fighters were killed in an Israeli air strike on the street as they were leaving the school yard.
In another case, a resident saw Hamas fighters setting up a rocket launcher in the middle of
a road in Gaza City at night.
In another area of Gaza City, a resident showed Amnesty International delegates a place from
where a rocket had been launched: a small patch of empty land some 50m from residential
houses. Television footage from the Arabic TV station al-Arabiya broadcast during Operation
“Cast Lead” also showed a presenter, seemingly caught off guard, saying that she had just
heard a rocket being fired from the street near the building which houses the TV station, in
the centre of Gaza City.


quote:

As confirmed by the testimonies and photographs of Israeli soldiers published in the Israeli
army magazine Bamachaneh and in footage available on the Israeli army website, both Israeli
troops and Palestinian fighters fought each other using similar tactics, including house-tohouse
fighting in residential areas, some of which were largely abandoned by civilians and
others where residents were trapped in their homes.

Like I said AI applied an odd double standard. It's less bad for Hamas to do the same things the IDF did plus the whole launching of terror attacks from civilian areas thing.

At least AI had the sense to emphasize this point:
quote:

The patterns of attacks and statements by members and
leaders of Palestinian groups also indicate that they have no qualms about launching attacks against
civilians and that they in fact carry out such attacks intending to kill and injure Israeli civilians. Such attacks
constitute war crimes.

So can you stop with the claims that Hamas isn't at least as bad as the IDF.

(in reply to KaineD)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Israelis used human shields. Palestinians did not - 7/4/2009 11:23:38 AM   
KaineD


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It's impossible, DomKen, to debate with someone that clearly has a reading comprehension problem.

There is no double double standard, because the IDF and Hamas were not doing the same thing, and Amnesty International clearly and explicitly states that, and states the reasons and the facts that point out that Israel used human shields and Palestinians did not. Firing close to residential neighbourhoods does not equate to the purposeful use of human shields.

Amnesty International did find that Israeli
forces on several occasions during Operation “Cast Lead” forced Palestinian civilians to serve
as “human shields”.


While the presence of Hamas and other fighters and weapons within civilian areas is not
contested, this in itself is not conclusive evidence of intent to use civilians as “human
shields


It cannot be stated any clearer.

You either have trouble reading, or, more likely, you are intentionally misinterpreting what has been stated.

There is NO point in debating with someone who is intentionally being illogical and intentionally stating fallacies. You either need to concede and accept the facts as they have been stated, or you need to let it go. You've lost this debate.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Israelis used human shields. Palestinians did not - 7/4/2009 11:36:20 AM   
KaineD


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I don't know why I'm bothering to do this as its stated clearly in black and white from the quotes of the report. But I'm going to attempt to simplify it further.

The facts: Amnesty International during their investigation, interviewed many Palestinians, who had several complaints about the conduct of Hamas.

But there were NO accounts from any of these people about Hamas using people as human shields.

In all cases of civilian deaths investigated by Amnesty international, none of the houses struck had been used by armed groups for military activities. In cases of precision missiles or tank shells which killed civilians in their homes, no fighters were present in the houses that were struck. AI found no indication that there had been any armed confrontations or other military activity in the immediate vicinity at the time of the attack.

DomKen, you state cases where Hamas were fighting or firing within civilian areas.

But its been clearly stated in black and white that this is not conclusive evidence of the intent to use civilians as human shields.

But Amnesty International has found evidence of multiple cases of Israeli forces intentionally using Palestinians as human shields.

That is the big difference here.

The report goes into even further detail that I didn't post here, about the evidence that Hamas did not use human shields while Israeli forces did.

It's like a teacher has written on the blackboard "2 + 2 = 4" and is telling you that's what it says, and you're saying "no, no, NO! It says 2 + 2 = 5!"

This isn't a matter of a difference of opinion.

You are simply wrong.

The onus of proof is on you to prove that the Palestinians used human shields.

Good luck.

< Message edited by KaineD -- 7/4/2009 11:39:06 AM >

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RE: Israelis used human shields. Palestinians did not - 7/4/2009 12:10:41 PM   
DomKen


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It is not conclusive evidence in and of itself.

However the preponderance of the evidence is clear. Hamas fighters do not wear identifying unforms. They do not operate from clearly designated military facilities. They store military ordinance in civilian homes (as shown by the AI report). They launch artillery strikes from civilians areas (including by AI's own report a school playground). After launching an attack they attempt to shelter amongst civilians (Also as shown in the AI report).

All of that is quite clear. Hamas uses the civilian population of Gaza as human shields as a strategic policy and as a tactical measure.

I also not ethat you evade the fact that AI says Hamas committed war crimes against the Israeli people before Cast Lead even began. It is always true that bad things happen to civilians in war. However it is alwas the case that the aggressor is the one held responsible for those events. Hamas was the aggressor therefore what happened during Cast Lead is entirely their responsibility.

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RE: Israelis used human shields. Palestinians did not - 7/4/2009 1:35:35 PM   
KaineD


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I never evaded what you're saying I did.

I'm the first person here to state that the AI report shows that Hamas also committed war crimes.

You are not worth debating with.

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RE: Israelis used human shields. Palestinians did not - 7/4/2009 1:45:00 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD
Amnesty International did find that Israeli
forces on several occasions during Operation “Cast Lead” forced Palestinian civilians to serve
as “human shields”.



Ohhhh I get it now. They're saying the IDF used Palestinians as shields.. Well...that makes sense, really. I mean if the Palestinians are willing to blow themselves up to kill IDF people, then you don't use IDF people as shields. You use the enemy as sheilds. But then if the Palestinians regard their own people's life so poorly, then you're just helping them out. The 'shields' they chose won't stop the Palestinians from firing, after all. So you're really just assisting in their suicide attackers in killing more of their own.


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'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

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RE: Israelis used human shields. Palestinians did not - 7/4/2009 3:11:15 PM   
KaineD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45
Ohhhh I get it now. They're saying the IDF used Palestinians as shields.. Well...that makes sense, really. I mean if the Palestinians are willing to blow themselves up to kill IDF people, then you don't use IDF people as shields. You use the enemy as sheilds. But then if the Palestinians regard their own people's life so poorly, then you're just helping them out. The 'shields' they chose won't stop the Palestinians from firing, after all. So you're really just assisting in their suicide attackers in killing more of their own.



I find this casual justification of over 1, 400 dead people, hundreds of whom were children, to be very chilling. I don't think Palestinian civilians deserve to die just as I don't think Israeli civilians deserve to die.

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RE: Israelis used human shields. Palestinians did not - 7/4/2009 3:19:05 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD
I find this casual justification of over 1, 400 dead people, hundreds of whom were children, to be very chilling. I don't think Palestinian civilians deserve to die just as I don't think Israeli civilians deserve to die.


You don't think palestinians deserve to die? Outstanding! How about you tell that to their suicide bombers? Last time I checked, they were using men, women, even children in suicide attacks. But, I guess that's ok, right?


_____________________________

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'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Israelis used human shields. Palestinians did not - 7/4/2009 3:20:37 PM   
ModeratorEleven


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Like every other Israel/Palestine thread, this is going nowhere.

XI



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This mod goes to eleven.

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Profile   Post #: 37
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