RE: The NEXT moral question - theft/salvage

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ishyB -> RE: The NEXT moral question - theft/salvage (7/6/2009 1:39:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 Well yes, for large sums of money, that is the case. But if it's something as small as a $20, there's no way in hell you or the cops couldfind the owner, there's a strong liklihood the person doesn't even know they lost it or where it would be if they did. We've had stories here about an envelope with a 'large sum of money' that was either turned in by the person who found it or one that led to a penalty when it was obvious who 'accidentally took it,' but for small bills, it's basically finders keepers. The point being, for most on my side of this thread, if the person believes they paid a $20, and the establishment believes they were paid a $20, there's no harm in ensuring that belief is accurate. No not for large sums of money, for all sums of money, the law is just very clear on this point: you do NOT own that what you find in the street. By your way of thinking, it would be wrong to take somebodies car that you found in front of the grocery story with the key still on it, simply because it's an expensive item; but when a kid left his skateboard there, it would be okay to take it because it was cheap? If you are going to argue that the difference is that those objects were placed there on purpose, I'll tell you now that that does not make a difference. Not legally at least. Taking an object that somebody deliberately left on the street versus taking an object that somebody lost is legally both considered as taking something that isn't yours, as theft. The cost of the object doesn't matter, nor does the fact of if the person lost it or left it. Since you claim that a taking a large sum of money would be wrong, while taking small sum would be not, where do you draw the line? The law certainly does not see a difference, so what kind of money are we talking about before its a large sum of money. Also, what about objects with little value but with large personal value. Say you find a set of keys on the street, or a notebook, or a picture album. Do you think that it's okay to keep those items just because they aren't worth much? Surely you see why the cost of the object doesn't make a difference legally, it is impossible to draw a straight line in this saying: this stuff is okay to take, and this stuff is not okay to take. I'm not saying that it logically makes any sense to take a $20 bill you find to the lost and found. And even if you did, they'd probably laugh at you when you got there. But the fact that almost everybody would take that bill and put it in their wallet doesn't make doing so legal. You asked if taking a $20 of the street was theft, and my reply has to be: yes, legally it is.

Loki45 -> RE: The NEXT moral question - theft/salvage (7/6/2009 2:14:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ishyB No not for large sums of money, for all sums of money, the law is just very clear on this point: you do NOT own that what you find in the street. By your way of thinking, it would be wrong to take somebodies car that you found in front of the grocery story with the key still on it, simply because it's an expensive item; but when a kid left his skateboard there, it would be okay to take it because it was cheap? If you are going to argue that the difference is that those objects were placed there on purpose, I'll tell you now that that does not make a difference. Not legally at least. Taking an object that somebody deliberately left on the street versus taking an object that somebody lost is legally both considered as taking something that isn't yours, as theft. The cost of the object doesn't matter, nor does the fact of if the person lost it or left it. Actually, what I'd argue is that you're comparing apples to oranges. Don't be embarrassed, it happens to lots of people. If I'm walking down the street, and see a $5 bill and pick it up, it's mine. Largely because anyone who would charge me with a crime must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it isn't mine. Who's to say I didn't accidentally drop it? Sure, I could help my case by exclaming "oh thank goodness, I thought I'd lost that!" But I don't need to. By your logic, people can't adopt stray pets, pick up furniture left on the side of the road (which they do....despite how....gross that sounds) and claim it as theirs. It's kinda like how garbage is public property once it's on the street. If someone places something out for garbage pick up (ie an old couch) they can't claim theft when it is picked up, no matter who picks it up. I don't know where you live, but here, if I walked out to the dumpster area in my apartment complex and see a perfectly fine, yet discarded couch or dresser, I can claim it. The only times I have seen 'large sums of money' left somewhere was in a store, or out of the back of an armored car. A $20 on the side of the road? No. That's when you go "oh THAT'S where I lost that.....whew!" And then anyone who claims otherwise must prove that you are not the rightful owner.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: The NEXT moral question - theft/salvage (7/6/2009 2:39:48 PM)
Greetings ishy, Some just have a different ethical standard than others. As long as they are not around you, or the people you care about, then no need to worry a lot. They will not see things any other way, than to justify their own actions of the past, or how they would approach is now. In the case of the $20 found, I didn't turn it in when I found one, but I did go into the three stores that the parking lot was for and asked the service desks if anyone mentioned losing any money in the parking lot. This situation though is much different than the one's put forth by the OP, and his subsequent follow up. take care, Orion

pahunkboy -> RE: The NEXT moral question - theft/salvage (7/6/2009 2:47:25 PM)
Sorta funny on this. You know it is illegal to pick up coins on the toll road. But- I was paying a toll on a windy day. The $10 bill was dancing around in the wind. It was in mid air- I grabbed it. So it was mind. I waited to see if anyone ahead was looking for it... and the motorists had sped off. So- that was kind of nice.

ishyB -> RE: The NEXT moral question - theft/salvage (7/6/2009 4:03:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 Actually, what I'd argue is that you're comparing apples to oranges. Don't be embarrassed, it happens to lots of people. If I'm walking down the street, and see a $5 bill and pick it up, it's mine. Largely because anyone who would charge me with a crime must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it isn't mine. Who's to say I didn't accidentally drop it? Sure, I could help my case by exclaming "oh thank goodness, I thought I'd lost that!" But I don't need to. By your logic, people can't adopt stray pets, pick up furniture left on the side of the road (which they do....despite how....gross that sounds) and claim it as theirs. It's kinda like how garbage is public property once it's on the street. If someone places something out for garbage pick up (ie an old couch) they can't claim theft when it is picked up, no matter who picks it up. I don't know where you live, but here, if I walked out to the dumpster area in my apartment complex and see a perfectly fine, yet discarded couch or dresser, I can claim it. The only times I have seen 'large sums of money' left somewhere was in a store, or out of the back of an armored car. A $20 on the side of the road? No. That's when you go "oh THAT'S where I lost that.....whew!" And then anyone who claims otherwise must prove that you are not the rightful owner. I don't think I'm comparing apples and oranges. Again, I don't know what the laws are in the US, but here in Belgium and in at least a couple other European countries, garbage left beside the road is NOT public property. You are legally not allowed to claim an old couch that's left at the side of the road. Now you personally might claim that you consider it morally justifiable to do such things, but that does not make the situation legal. When you asked if keeping a $20 you find is theft or not, you were not asking for a moral definition, but for a legal one. My only stance is that, at least in this country, yes such a thing is illegal. Whether it's concerning money, or a bike, or a car, or even garbage. I'm not saying you cannot say that you think it's okay to do such things, but it doesn't make them legal.

Loki45 -> RE: The NEXT moral question - theft/salvage (7/6/2009 4:09:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ishyB I don't think I'm comparing apples and oranges. Again, I don't know what the laws are in the US, but here in Belgium and in at least a couple other European countries, garbage left beside the road is NOT public property. You are legally not allowed to claim an old couch that's left at the side of the road. Then this is where the disconnect is. Here it is legal.

ishyB -> RE: The NEXT moral question - theft/salvage (7/6/2009 4:18:45 PM)
v quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Greetings ishy, Some just have a different ethical standard than others. As long as they are not around you, or the people you care about, then no need to worry a lot. They will not see things any other way, than to justify their own actions of the past, or how they would approach is now. In the case of the $20 found, I didn't turn it in when I found one, but I did go into the three stores that the parking lot was for and asked the service desks if anyone mentioned losing any money in the parking lot. This situation though is much different than the one's put forth by the OP, and his subsequent follow up. take care, Orion Greetings Master Orion, topics like this always make it very obvious that people's ethics do differ a lot. What always surprises me the most though, is the way people seem to need to justify things. I can understand somebody saying: I don't agree with this law, and as such I feel no moral obligation to keep it. But the argument that because they feel they should not follow said law it suddenly becomes standard practice for everybody to brake it is something that I don't understand. It's an argument that's often heard when discussing the illegal downloading of music or other copy right material. People do tend to agree that taking copy right material is theft. At the same time they also admit that they do download illegally. But then, when you point out that that means they are stealing, the only argument they have in their defence is: yeah but everybody else is doing it too. Personally, as a slave and I am in no way, shape or form allowed to make a judgment about if such actions are morally right or wrong. Obviously, Master's morals and ethics are the only ones that count for me. But I'm intensely fascinated in the way some people tend to first make a judgment based on ethics, then break said judgment with their actions, and then argue that it's actually normal for them to do so, because everybody else is doing it too. I'm no saint myself, and there are a lot of things I did when I was free that I'm not allowed to do now because of Master's ethics, like illegal downloading. But I never had that tendency to justify to myself that what I was doing wrong was actually right. I knew I was doing something wrong, and I chose to do it anyways, I never needed much more justification than that. I wish you well, ishy

OrionTheWolf -> RE: The NEXT moral question - theft/salvage (7/6/2009 4:52:08 PM)
Not everywhere is it legal, such as Connecticut: "§ 50-10. Duties of finder Any person who finds and takes possession of any article of the value of one dollar or more shall report the finding of such article to the police department of the municipality in which he finds such article within forty-eight hours from the time of such finding. The finder of such article shall, at the time of reporting, furnish to the police department the date, time and place of finding, his name and address and a description of the article found, and, within a period of one week from such finding, shall deliver such article to the police department. Any person who violates or fails to comply with the provisions of this section shall be fined not more than one hundred dollars or imprisoned not more than thirty days or both. " http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusctst50_1_14.htm The min amount varies from state to state. quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: ishyB I don't think I'm comparing apples and oranges. Again, I don't know what the laws are in the US, but here in Belgium and in at least a couple other European countries, garbage left beside the road is NOT public property. You are legally not allowed to claim an old couch that's left at the side of the road. Then this is where the disconnect is. Here it is legal.

Loki45 -> RE: The NEXT moral question - theft/salvage (7/6/2009 6:59:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Not everywhere is it legal, such as Connecticut: I didn't say everywhere. I said "here." I don't live everywhere.

JohnSteed1967 -> RE: The NEXT moral question - theft/salvage (7/7/2009 6:09:07 AM)
saw this happen in real life, Assistant manager was keeping a box with rare coins that came through under the cabinet. The Coins never left the place but because it wasn't reported with his cash they called it theft and fired him. The only real way to resolve this is talk with management, get their feelings on the subject and go from there. If management is OK with it then your golden, but if they are hard asses then do your job!

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