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RE: BUt who determines what is affordable? - 7/5/2009 9:42:12 AM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty
My question: Will her employer now be giving her the funds they were previously spending on health insurance?


Most likely not. Few employers do this. I'm guessing that the employers you were able to negotiate this with were smaller, perhaps sole-proprietor type companies. My employer will pay a small amount ($50/mo? something like that) to those who opt out of the health care plan, but you've got to be able to prove that you're getting your health insurance elsewhere. Most larger employers don't offer anything to those who opt out of health care coverage. They don't really benefit by allowing folks to opt out because those who do are usually the younger, healthier, childless folks. The employer loses not only the economies of scale but of spreading the risk over a more needs-diverse group.

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RE: BUt who determines what is affordable? - 7/8/2009 10:25:38 AM   
Louve00


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I found this link that gives an idea (sorta) of the cost it may be.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D996RCGG1&show_article=1

It talks about fining people $1,000.00 for not insuring themselves, and states within the link....

In 2008, employer-provided coverage averaged $12,680 a year for a family plan, and $4,704 for individual coverage, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation's annual survey. Senate aides, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly, said the cost of the federal plan would be lower but declined to provide specifics.
 
It also talks about and gives you a link to gov't subsidies for people who couldn't afford the premium.

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RE: BUt who determines what is affordable? - 7/8/2009 11:02:19 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

Edited to add, Cuba is supposed to have the best national healthcare system, perhaps we should all look at them, to see what they are doing right and we can all learn from.


I have a former companion, now deceased, who was an international contractor. He said that the biggest thing he noticed about Cuba's health system was that there -was- no "private option". All the 'socialist fears' that people have about a government-run health-care system are pretty much the reality there, except having government officials tell doctors what can and can't be treated and how. Unlike our insurance companies (which can and do tell doctors, on a daily basis, how to treat their patients and what procedures/medicines can or can't be prescribed.. based on what will leave the most profit in the insurance company coffers), the doctors, dentists, eye doctors, and specialists there are government-based, and all the patients have only the common-pool medical system. Of course, folks could argue that his assessment was biased on account of he wasn't an American (or a Brit), but he and I used to have long discussions about health, as I was working (at the time) as a midwife and had had some really wonderful experiences in both France and the Netherlands to compare to my very different experiences in the States, and he had experiences with health care in both 1st and 3rd world nations around the world.

I don't know if the US would ever go for anything like that, though, even if it works better than just about any system in the world... sometimes, people are willing to literally sacrifice their lives and the lives of everyone around them for ideology, and this seems to be one of those cases.

Someone (maybe the same person) told me that France has an excellent government health program, too, and that it's nearly the same thing -- no private option... just the public government health service... but that they provide really outstanding health care, despite the socialist nature of the package.

I think that any time there is an option for doctors to earn more through a private-funding option, and for the wealthy to pay for special treatment, you're going to run into health care disparities, as the providers, wanting to earn the most buck, go private where the rich can for extra 'bang'.

*shrugs*
DC

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 7/8/2009 11:06:22 AM >


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RE: BUt who determines what is affordable? - 7/8/2009 11:08:02 AM   
servantforuse


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As for me. If I have a major surgery scheduled, I would rather have it done here in Milwaukee rather that in Cuba.

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RE: BUt who determines what is affordable? - 7/8/2009 11:46:50 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Bass-ackwards. 

During the Democratic primary, Obama said something that impressed the hell out of me.  While everyone else said that health care is a basic right and we simply needed to figure out who pays and how, he said that the first step was to find out why it's so expensive.

If the cost of good health care can be reduced, it makes it more accessible to companies that pay health care, to individuals, and to any government program.  AFTER the costs get reduced, we worry about who pays what.

I really wish he would go back to that.




Why is it so expensive

1) Insurance companies.. they take their cut... whats left over?
2) uninsured people... the cost of dealing with, say, dialysis or a stroke is much higher than the cost of a semi anual physical and a bottle of pills to control their high BP.
3) our sue happy nation... im not saying we shouldnt sue when something goes terribly wrong. but.. because you decided to get fake boobs and one nipple sits higher than another? many dont go to court, they are settled because they are just a nusiance and the insurance company figures the money paid out is cheaper than defending the Dr or hospital.
4)Illegal immigrants... they flock the boarder towns... the present with problems, many unable or unwilling to speak english, and the Dr's now have to do a huge battery of tests to find out whats wrong. and women who present for delivery. mom and baby are immiately seen as high risk, resulting in extensive tests, longer stays for both, and added costs to what may just be another normal delivery. but, because of the lawyers and lawsuits, hospitals and Dr's wont take that chance, and i cant blame them.
5) lawyers... nuff said.

i have no doubt many, many others can be added to this list, including our own government, added regulations for the FDA, ANA, AMA and a whole slew of other anagrams. This is just the start.

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RE: BUt who determines what is affordable? - 7/8/2009 1:31:48 PM   
DemandingLeader


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I think every aspect of medicine will be subjected to a cost/benefit examination, and the stuff that costs too much and provides the least positive impact will simply have to be shed.

In the US we are a nation of Specialists with a shortage of GPs. People go to the specialties, because the bigger money is there. But are all these specialists really needed? And whats their cost/benefit ratio?

There are plenty of professions in the US where people have invested heavily in education, but are left to compete with cheap foreign competition, and sometimes, its competition they cannot win.  I dont understand why the people working in the medical community feel they are isulated from that same reality coming home and affecting them. Why cant we get free trade for doctors and lawyers, the same way we have already had free trade in manufacturing and IT and engineering that has driven costs down in those fields.

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RE: BUt who determines what is affordable? - 7/8/2009 1:42:14 PM   
DemandingLeader


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D996RCGG1&show_article=1

It talks about fining people $1,000.00 for not insuring themselves, and states within the link....





I dont really consider Breitbart an unslanted source, but how ironic that the proposed program of fines for not having medical insurance only mirrors the State of Massachusettes, the very plan initiated by Mitt Romney, then governor.



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RE: BUt who determines what is affordable? - 7/8/2009 5:16:43 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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90% of successful preventative medicine is going on a diet, getting 1/2 hour of exercise a day and quitting smoking and not only do they not cost a dime, they save money. The other 10% is annual checkups. If Obama wants to expand health care to cover annual checkups for the uninsured I'm all for it.

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RE: BUt who determines what is affordable? - 7/9/2009 6:39:04 AM   
DemandingLeader


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We are a nation of autos, were all we have to do is walk from our house to our garage, and from our car to our office. Our situation is inherently more lazy compared to other nations that are more public transit centered and rely less on private autos.

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RE: BUt who determines what is affordable? - 7/9/2009 7:35:14 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

quote:

Most parts of the UK, you might get to see your doctor within fourteen days, and any specialist treatment, you wait weeks for that. Although we have a system of sorts, it is far from satisfactory for the poorest members of society.


Even then your system is much better than what the U.S. has at the present time.  As far as financing it, nationalize such industries as the oil industry and use the profits.
In a republic with democratic principles, nationalization of privately held corporations/industries should be viewed with fear.  That's how communist and socialist states operate.

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RE: BUt who determines what is affordable? - 7/9/2009 7:57:32 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

In a republic with democratic principles, nationalization of privately held corporations/industries should be viewed with fear.  That's how communist and socialist states operate.








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RE: BUt who determines what is affordable? - 7/9/2009 11:30:03 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The answer to the O P's question is simple. The federal government will decide what is affordable. They will also decide what Dr. you see, when you can see them and set rules as to why you see them. Lets fix health care, not ruin it by giving government contro of your medical history..


Yes, I know this is what the insurance and hospital conglomerates want you to believe.  They have been stepping up their media campaign since March.   But other than their attempts to exaggerate and instill fear to protect their profits, do you have any facts to prove that will be the case?

Do you have anything to say that government control of health coverage will be any more stringent than the insurance companies, because everything you mentioned as a negative of government health care already occurs with the private system, unless you pay out-of-pocket.  An option that won't be removed.

Yes, there are other studies that show where gov't control will be more stringent.  They will set up panels that will ration care, panels that will decide the necessity of a procedure, panels that decide when you should be well which...when confronted...they will be vague about exactly what guidelines they are following but they sure aren't any you ever learned in school.  Their idea is to set up something similar to Medicare.  Being a provider who has dealt with Medicare for 26 years tells me in no uncertain terms do I want the government involved in my regular patient's health care.

Someone on here asked why doctors should be insulated from the competition for patients based on providing a service at a lower cost.  Good and bad question.  On the bad question side, doctors are forced to compete...many insurance companies set a price for procedures that they will pay for.  Any amount charged that is higher than that is the patient's responsibility OR, in some cases where the doctor is a part of that insurance network, is not allowed.  If the doctor wants to build a patient base or other circumstances force him to work where he is, he has the choice of entering into these network agreements even if they do not pay him what he thinks he is worth.  He is always entitled to try and make it without that umbrella by charging a higher fee than what the insurance companies will pay him but a lower fee than what other providers charge.  I charge less than what one of the other chiropractic doctors around here charges and more than the other one does.  I charge less because I don't have the overhead that the doctor who charges more does, not because I think they are better.  I charge more than the other one does because, even though he has the same equipment, I've been at it 15 yrs longer and have post-graduate certification.  If a patient wants to pay the higher fee because the doctor is not in the network or because they feel the doctor is worth it, then that is their option and their choice.  People like to say that everyone is entitled to decent health care.  While I agree that no one should be subjected to a criminal standard of care, the idea that everyone deserves the best is a socialistic, utopian view.  If you want a Mercedes rather than a Chevrolet, expect to pay a higher price.  If you want a world-renowned cardiologist rather than the specialist in your city that is covered under your health plan, expect to pay more. 
Good question side...if there are doctors like me who charge less than what the insurance companies are willing to pay...and there are plenty of us...why don't the insurance companies go with those of us with lower rates?

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RE: BUt who determines what is affordable? - 7/9/2009 6:12:56 PM   
Crush


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As an aside:

If we get the same kind of coverage that our congresspersons get, then fine.  Otherwise, they need to get the same kind of coverage we'll end up with after their machinations.  Be sure to check the fine print and if they are exempted from "the plan" or not.  THAT will be the real indication of the quality of what's to come.

However, my money is on Congress being "exempted" from participating...


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RE: BUt who determines what is affordable? - 7/9/2009 6:33:30 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

90% of successful preventative medicine is going on a diet, getting 1/2 hour of exercise a day and quitting smoking and not only do they not cost a dime, they save money. The other 10% is annual checkups. If Obama wants to expand health care to cover annual checkups for the uninsured I'm all for it.
Sounds good.....but there appears to be a fly in your soup so to speak.
What happens when the inevitable occurs.....people that go for checkups often require treatment for a condition discovered during said checkup.Who's paying for their continuing treatment?

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RE: BUt who determines what is affordable? - 7/9/2009 10:34:26 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Yes, there are other studies that show where gov't control will be more stringent.  They will set up panels that will ration care, panels that will decide the necessity of a procedure, panels that decide when you should be well which...when confronted...they will be vague about exactly what guidelines they are following but they sure aren't any you ever learned in school.


Care to share any of those studies or am I just to accept that they exist and that's enough?

quote:


Their idea is to set up something similar to Medicare.  Being a provider who has dealt with Medicare for 26 years tells me in no uncertain terms do I want the government involved in my regular patient's health care.


And does that have to do with the quality of care your patient receives or more to do with the quality and timeliness of your compensation?

quote:


Someone on here asked why doctors should be insulated from the competition for patients based on providing a service at a lower cost.  Good and bad question.  On the bad question side, doctors are forced to compete...many insurance companies set a price for procedures that they will pay for.  Any amount charged that is higher than that is the patient's responsibility OR, in some cases where the doctor is a part of that insurance network, is not allowed.  If the doctor wants to build a patient base or other circumstances force him to work where he is, he has the choice of entering into these network agreements even if they do not pay him what he thinks he is worth.  He is always entitled to try and make it without that umbrella by charging a higher fee than what the insurance companies will pay him but a lower fee than what other providers charge.  I charge less than what one of the other chiropractic doctors around here charges and more than the other one does.  I charge less because I don't have the overhead that the doctor who charges more does, not because I think they are better.  I charge more than the other one does because, even though he has the same equipment, I've been at it 15 yrs longer and have post-graduate certification.  If a patient wants to pay the higher fee because the doctor is not in the network or because they feel the doctor is worth it, then that is their option and their choice.  People like to say that everyone is entitled to decent health care.  While I agree that no one should be subjected to a criminal standard of care, the idea that everyone deserves the best is a socialistic, utopian view.  If you want a Mercedes rather than a Chevrolet, expect to pay a higher price.  If you want a world-renowned cardiologist rather than the specialist in your city that is covered under your health plan, expect to pay more. 
Good question side...if there are doctors like me who charge less than what the insurance companies are willing to pay...and there are plenty of us...why don't the insurance companies go with those of us with lower rates?


Well, I guess that pretty much answers my previous question.

While I realize doctors have to make a living like everyone else, I think your opposition to government health care is easily summed up by what you wrote above.

You are worried it will affect your bottom line, regardless of  how it might help your patients.

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RE: BUt who determines what is affordable? - 7/10/2009 7:07:04 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Yes, there are other studies that show where gov't control will be more stringent.  They will set up panels that will ration care, panels that will decide the necessity of a procedure, panels that decide when you should be well which...when confronted...they will be vague about exactly what guidelines they are following but they sure aren't any you ever learned in school.


Care to share any of those studies or am I just to accept that they exist and that's enough?
They exist.  I read one or another of them about 1x/week.  You want to see them...look them up.

quote:


Their idea is to set up something similar to Medicare.  Being a provider who has dealt with Medicare for 26 years tells me in no uncertain terms do I want the government involved in my regular patient's health care.

And does that have to do with the quality of care your patient receives or more to do with the quality and timeliness of your compensation?
Given that I've had some of my Medicare patients since about 15-20 years before they were on Medicare, I'd say that the quality of care that I give the patients remains the same, whether they are on Medicare or not.  What doesn't remain the same is the payment level.  I receive, on average, 5 - 10 bucks less per patient once they are on Medicare.  My waiting time goes up to anywhere from 3 mos - 6 mos vs. immediately for cash patients and 2 - 3 mos for regular insurance.  The amount of paperwork for this reduced sum is increased by at least twofold.  So, to answer your question, it has to do with the ineffective bureaucratic machine that Medicar e is.  Tell me, would you like to wait 3 - 6 months for your work check?  Would you like to have to prove that the work you did was necessary?

quote:


Someone on here asked why doctors should be insulated from the competition for patients based on providing a service at a lower cost.  Good and bad question.  On the bad question side, doctors are forced to compete...many insurance companies set a price for procedures that they will pay for.  Any amount charged that is higher than that is the patient's responsibility OR, in some cases where the doctor is a part of that insurance network, is not allowed.  If the doctor wants to build a patient base or other circumstances force him to work where he is, he has the choice of entering into these network agreements even if they do not pay him what he thinks he is worth.  He is always entitled to try and make it without that umbrella by charging a higher fee than what the insurance companies will pay him but a lower fee than what other providers charge.  I charge less than what one of the other chiropractic doctors around here charges and more than the other one does.  I charge less because I don't have the overhead that the doctor who charges more does, not because I think they are better.  I charge more than the other one does because, even though he has the same equipment, I've been at it 15 yrs longer and have post-graduate certification.  If a patient wants to pay the higher fee because the doctor is not in the network or because they feel the doctor is worth it, then that is their option and their choice.  People like to say that everyone is entitled to decent health care.  While I agree that no one should be subjected to a criminal standard of care, the idea that everyone deserves the best is a socialistic, utopian view.  If you want a Mercedes rather than a Chevrolet, expect to pay a higher price.  If you want a world-renowned cardiologist rather than the specialist in your city that is covered under your health plan, expect to pay more. 
Good question side...if there are doctors like me who charge less than what the insurance companies are willing to pay...and there are plenty of us...why don't the insurance companies go with those of us with lower rates?


Well, I guess that pretty much answers my previous question.

While I realize doctors have to make a living like everyone else, I think your opposition to government health care is easily summed up by what you wrote above.

You are worried it will affect your bottom line, regardless of  how it might help your patients.

What I wrote above is that, on average, I charge less than many other doctors and charge more than some do.  As a matter of fact, I do care about my bottom line...just as anyone who is working for themselves does.  Many people may love their jobs but I seriously doubt that you will find anyone who would happily accept a pay cut while being expected to work longer hours.  Someone who will accept a pay cut while their own expenses go up...expenses such as malpractice insurance, licensing fees, inspection fees, any sort of fee that the state government can think of to impose since...in our state anyway...they are forbidden to raise our taxes without going to the people and giving them the chance to vote on it first.  So the government sets a fee...like they have now for vehicle registration...which is basically a new tax on anyone who drives.  10 years ago, before my divorce, I had 4 women working for me on clerical and technical assistant duties.  When my practice went down after the divorce, I had to get rid of these people.  Now...10 years later...my practice is back up to almost the same level as it was before the divorce yet now, I could only afford to hire one of these people back.  Why?  Because Medicare reimbursement has gone down.  Because I have recognized that other people are hurting in terms of their employment status more than I am and have kept my fees the same for the last 5 years.  But that same holding of fees has not occurred within medicare, within the medical malpractice insurance industry, within state licensing agencies. 
Something that people who advocate having something that someone else pay for always love to bring in is "the humanity"...tell me, why should I accept a lower fee to work on a lawyer who drives up to my office in his Porsche Boxster?  Why should I accept a lower fee to work on a woman who walks into my office wearing leather pants, after getting out of her 40,000 dollar truck, because she's got 5 kids but no father in sight and is receiving Medicaid, WIC, and all the other government bennies?  Because the government has determined that it bematter of fact, I do care about my bottom line...just as anyone else who is working does.  People st knows how to handle costs and their best way is always to decrease payments to the providers while at the same time, bloating the numbers of people who work for Medicare...or any other government agency?  Lawyers serve humanity too...tell you what, let's put them on a fee schedule based  on what the government says they are worth.  Do you really think that would ever happen?  No.  Because trial lawyers, especially those who love to sue for "damages" are some of the biggest contributors to politicians.
As for your snide comments about what sort of quality of care I provide to my patients...all I can say is that I've been in practice in the same small town for 26 years.  Some of my patients became mine when my father died 24 years ago and some of my patients are people who first came to me 26 years ago.  My very first patient is still my patient 26 years later and is happy with what I've done for her through the years.  My practice has survived a vengeful ex-wife, a 7 year drought that affected many of my farmers and ranchers, and the cyclic nature of the beef, sugar, and oil industries.  So I must do something right, eh?

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 7/10/2009 7:52:29 AM >

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RE: BUt who determines what is affordable? - 7/10/2009 8:04:50 PM   
downkitty


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~FR~

IMO, we need tort reform no matter what.  I also would like to cap prescription costs like other countries do.  It seems to me, private healthcare nations are footing the bill for the supposed R&D for the pharmaceutical companies for the entire world.  Maybe subsidize R&D and cap the costs of the pills.

I would rather do these two things, which I think would make healthcare affordable again so even small business could offer it.  Perhaps that would be enough to insure the vast majority of Americans.  Those unable to work are generally on medicaid anyway and still would be.  I have a sneaking suspicion that these changes would effectively end the "healthcare crisis."  If it doesn't, THEN lets talk about spending a crapton of money to set up a whole new government bureaucracy that may or may not work as well as just fixing the COST of healthcare. 

< Message edited by downkitty -- 7/10/2009 8:06:01 PM >


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RE: BUt who determines what is affordable? - 7/11/2009 1:39:56 PM   
Lorr47


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

OK, I'm all for everyone having health coverage (god knows I don't have any)...  but who is going to decide what the word 'affordable' means?  I'm in the limbo-land of the national income designations:  I make to much to fall into poverty, but I don't make enough to live on....

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/03/senate-health-care-plan-impose-fines-refusing-coverage/



In our area Bill Moyers is repeated 8:00 am Sunday morning.  This episode has Wendell Potter, until recently one of the main officers at Cigna.  He is worth listening to.  I think the reason he is in a state of "mea culpa" was that he participated in the virtual murder of one insured.

We hear how wasteful any governmental program is but I did not know Medicare's administrative cost is 3% whereas the insurance industry is at 20% from what I understood.  Potter also outlines briefly the industry organized attack on Roger Moore's "Sicko" because Moore was 100% right.  Potter shows the Republican outline for fighting the plan together with the falsity of all those heads of the health industry standing with Obama.  Potter says the leaders only want to destroy reform  from the inside.  The whole opposition to health care reform is about profits.  The "for sale" sign in front the the capital is "bull" according to an irate Moyers.  Also, pay attention to what the Washington Post did.  There will not be any health care reform unless the government is overthrown.

< Message edited by Lorr47 -- 7/11/2009 1:41:54 PM >

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RE: BUt who determines what is affordable? - 7/11/2009 1:51:46 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

Roger Moore's "Sicko" because Moore was 100% right. 



LMAO


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RE: BUt who determines what is affordable? - 7/11/2009 2:10:56 PM   
Lorr47


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

Roger Moore's "Sicko" because Moore was 100% right. 



LMAO




After listening to the leading lights of the republican party such as Limbaugh and Palin, I have to say at least Moore speaks in complete sentences and I do not become distracted by the flies.  Limbaugh is a candidate for becoming a methane factory and Palin would be housed in a brothel except that she is of such extreme use to the enemies of the republican party if such a party still exists.

In any case Potter called Moore 100% right in "Sicko" and showed how the industry and republicans attacked him.  The republicans orchestrated an attack on Moore because he was wrong?  


< Message edited by Lorr47 -- 7/11/2009 2:17:27 PM >

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