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Advice for a New Domme - 7/5/2009 6:22:34 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		From a purely D/s perspective, robotic submission would be convenient; it would be convenient to give an instruction and have it executed as might a robot. However, BDSM relationships typically have an interpersonal component and most women prefer a BDSM relationship that also has the human component. When a domme says that she does not want a robot but an obedient sub with personality, the underlying point is that a sub should achieve a balance between traits that carry appeal for her with respect to BDSM and with respect to interpersonal attraction.

In the context of a relationship that has an interpersonal component, what is the equivalent of this advice that one might give to a new domme with respect to achieving a balance between that that carries appeal with respect to BDSM and that that carries appeal with respect to interpersonal attraction--what types of behavior should be avoided?

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 7/5/2009 7:00:14 PM >
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RE: Advice for a New Domme - 7/5/2009 7:54:44 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		My Dear sea,

I almost have the inclination of saying that this question is beneath you.  I'm quite sure that you already know the answer yourself.  I know, without failing, that you have already formulated at least in some form, the query yourself.

Now, what would I tell a new Domme, who does *not* have your personal experience and musings on the matter?

Command him to obey.  Understand there will be times that he will fail.

All beings, Domme and sub alike, are in states of progress, not perfection.

You chose him for a reason.  Whatever quality it is that he has that made you want to do that, don't extinguish it.

Remind him that part of submission is feeling the emotions inside of him.  Not refusing to recognize them.

Tell him it's good to laugh every day.

Acknowledge the fact that tears are a part of human nature.  After the scene, make sure you dry them.

Never forget yourself that he is human.  If you do, he certainly will.

By the way, so are you.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to undergroundsea)
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RE: Advice for a New Domme - 7/5/2009 8:03:32 PM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		Wow - how boring would that be!  I like BDSM specifically for the psychological so it would make me nuts to have a robot sub.

If a new Domme wants a relationship with a sub but doesn't want to become too involved (if that's what the crux of your question really is) then I think she should tell a sub that right from the start.  I was not looking for a romance with my subs, yet I cared for each of them.  I did not want to go "on dates", did not want to be wooed, I just wanted them to follow their commands.  However, that does not in any sense imply that I did not want them to get enjoyment and fulfillment out of serving me.

The best advice I could give is that the Domme should start by being honest with herself about exactly what she wants and then follow that up with being just as honest with her sub about it. 


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RE: Advice for a New Domme - 7/5/2009 9:54:10 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I almost have the inclination of saying that this question is beneath you.  I'm quite sure that you already know the answer yourself.  I know, without failing, that you have already formulated at least in some form, the query yourself.


Dear Lady Pact,

Thank you for the response. I think you have listed wonderful advice for a domme seeking a broader, interpersonal relationship that has a human and emotional component.

I went back too late to be able to edit my thread title and text to make it more descriptive of thoughts I had in mind for this thread. It is a thought upon which I have reflected before as a good discussion topic but only now have put it to words.

I think just as subs must achieve a balance between different behaviors that come from or appeal to different components of a person (BDSM component, other components), so must dominants. For example, the bitch goddess persona of the type one might see at The OWK lies at one end of the spectrum and illustrates that there are behaviors that carry appeal for masochism but not for a broader relationship. I think a more common and less obvious example is the it's-all-about-me-and-only-about-me attitude, an attitude I sometimes see boasted by dominants. One would not expect to see this attitude boasted on a vanilla site because it is not thought to be very attractive from a general social, non-BDSM perspective. This attitude creates a mixed response in me; it creates a positive response with respect to BDSM attraction, and leaves me unimpressed for reasons one is unlikely to see it on vanilla sites.

Incidentally, for me this conflict and its effect on sum attraction and compatibility works in the other direction also; I might think very well of a woman based on what I find attractive with respect to general interpersonal traits but not feel enough of a BDSM attraction.

Thus, in my opinion behaviors that are attractive with respect to BDSM and those that are attractive with respect to general interpersonal interactions might pull in different directions in some cases, and, based on the type of relationship sought, a suitable balance must be achieved. Just as a claim to submission does not take away responsibilities a sub has, a claim to dominance does not provide a pass to practice behaviors generally thought to be counterproductive for broader social relationships.

It is these types of opposing behaviors and ideas I wish to approach in this thread. What I state is my subjective preference for a balance between traits and what I intuitively think applies at a more general level amongst subs. However, I am curious to hear from other subs so as to not project my belief onto others.

And I am curious to hear from dominants to see how they might struggle with opposing drives and considerations, and how they achieve a balance between the two.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 7/5/2009 10:02:44 PM >

(in reply to LadyPact)
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RE: Advice for a New Domme - 7/5/2009 10:07:14 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen
The best advice I could give is that the Domme should start by being honest with herself about exactly what she wants and then follow that up with being just as honest with her sub about it. 


Thank you for your post. I think you offer good advice above: one should seek inventory of what one would like in a relationship, what type of person she considers compatible, what kind of person would consider her compatible, and what is appropriate for the dynamic envisioned.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to chamberqueen)
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RE: Advice for a New Domme - 7/5/2009 10:57:02 PM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

Wow - how boring would that be!  I like BDSM specifically for the psychological so it would make me nuts to have a robot sub.

If a new Domme wants a relationship with a sub but doesn't want to become too involved (if that's what the crux of your question really is) then I think she should tell a sub that right from the start.  I was not looking for a romance with my subs, yet I cared for each of them.  I did not want to go "on dates", did not want to be wooed, I just wanted them to follow their commands.  However, that does not in any sense imply that I did not want them to get enjoyment and fulfillment out of serving me.

The best advice I could give is that the Domme should start by being honest with herself about exactly what she wants and then follow that up with being just as honest with her sub about it. 



I would have to agree; to add to that, I think while most femdoms (dare I say - all?) who don't want a "robotic" sub aren't just looking for the anti-robotic, either, and it's not necessarily that they want "packaged service" either. I think they want *exciting, interesting submission* and that means different things to different women.  For me, it doesn't mean he has to "be forced to do things he does not want to do" in order for it to be submission.

However, on SOME level (not entirely, but a significant piece of the "submission pie"), it has to include some authentic vulnerability, authentic fear (the fun kind), and authentic surrender (putting my selfish, nasty, cruel delights above his - for the moment).  This means NOT robotic slavery, "yes ma'am, anything you say ma'am," it means showing that side of him that is uneasy, nervous, fearful, uncomfortable.

I think subs often are in two mindsets at the same time, and feeling two things at once:

1. Aroused, happy, content, fulfilled, submissive, obedient
2. Nervous, vulnerable, naked, open, fearful, anxious (note: all "good" types of these emotions, the fun version, not the bad one)

I tell me subs to learn how to convey MORE of #2 to me, because I know #1 is happening, and/or it is WELL covered when we talk about our relationship as a whole, and our pleasure in his submission; I know he's loving submitting to me.  I just want to see more of the fear side of it, because that's what makes me tick.

Robotic slavery? Hell no :)

Akasha


_____________________________

Akasha's Web - All original Femdom content since 1995
Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

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RE: Advice for a New Domme - 7/5/2009 11:10:24 PM   
AlexandraLynch


Posts: 778
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline 		I want a sub who has given me his fealty.

And one who understands that fealty is not following your queen over a cliff, it is knocking her off her horse and respectfully sitting on her til she comes to her senses.


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Just because I'm not a bitch doesn't mean I'm not perfectly capable of making sure you'll be very sorry if you disobey.

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RE: Advice for a New Domme - 7/6/2009 7:18:27 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
Robotic slavery? Hell no :)


Thank you for your post.

Your post shows that robotic slavery is uninteresting not only for interpersonal reasons but for some people it is uninteresting also for BDSM reasons because it does not show the vulnerability that makes BDSM exciting for them.

I agree that robotic slavery is uninteresting to most dommes, which is why I used it as an example. With that example, I try to convey that there are behaviors that some subs might see to carry appeal from purely a D/s perspective which, in reality, are not conducive to a broader relationship.

The point on which I invite discussion is that what is the equivalent of robotic behavior in dominants; what are behaviors that might carry appeal from a BDSM perspective but are not conducive to a broader, interpersonal relationship?

By a broader interpersonal relationship I mean a social relationship that is based on mutual interest and mutual wish for each other's happiness and desire to remain in the relationship.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to AAkasha)
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RE: Advice for a New Domme - 7/6/2009 7:20:51 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlexandraLynch
And one who understands that fealty is not following your queen over a cliff, it is knocking her off her horse and respectfully sitting on her til she comes to her senses.


Thank you for your post. I enjoyed your example ;-)

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to AlexandraLynch)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Advice for a New Domme - 7/6/2009 7:48:08 AM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
Robotic slavery? Hell no :)



The point on which I invite discussion is that what is the equivalent of robotic behavior in dominants; what are behaviors that might carry appeal from a BDSM perspective but are not conducive to a broader, interpersonal relationship?

By a broader interpersonal relationship I mean a social relationship that is based on mutual interest and mutual wish for each other's happiness and desire to remain in the relationship.



The femdom equivalent is the "instant bitch."  The "power exchange" begins with her barking orders, being "mean" for no reason, or just giving commands with a sharp tones and expecting obedience.  It's dominance without affection.  It lacks sensuality.  There's no momentum or build up.  It goes from 0 to 60 on sadism or dominance without any real building of intensity, or making the submissive feel helpless.  It's a flogging with no "warm up," if you are talking about straight topping vs. power exchange.

I tell new femdoms who are unsure about "how to play the role" when it is so different from their normal day-to-day persona ("how do I get him to even take me seriously?") that femdom is like making love. There is foreplay.  While a submissive man WILL obey out of the gate with a snap of your fingers, it leaves the entire interaction feeling cold and mechanical or simply campy and ridiculous.  Sensuality must play a very, very big role as barriers are stripped down; depending on your intimacy level with the man, that can include soft kisses where you run your fingers through his hair only to clench your fists in them to make him whimper, or quite *delicately* applying restraints with a mischevious smile. It's moving catlike, rather than rigid and overly domineering. It's soft tones with teasing affection, not barking orders and using vulgarity.  There is a lot of physical touch, where cruelty is mixed with affection in varying doses.

Most importantly, it's recognizing that submission isn's an on/off switch, it's a process.  There may be resistance, hesitation, fear (if it's GOOD, lol); these things are slowly stripped away through seduction, sexual arousal and intimacy. What he begins the "scene" saying, "Please don't do that to me," he ends with saying, "Please do that to me!" - and what happens in between is the hot stuff.

Akasha


_____________________________

Akasha's Web - All original Femdom content since 1995
Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

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RE: Advice for a New Domme - 7/6/2009 7:59:59 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		Very well said, A.  Not that I'm greatly experienced at being a femdom, but that all looked like excellent advice to me.

While a submissive man WILL obey out of the gate with a snap of your fingers, it leaves the entire interaction feeling cold and mechanical or simply campy and ridiculous.  

Yep, I've had both the cold and mechanical and the campy and ridiculous at the same time.  I suppose it'll come as no surprise that I ended up trying to stifle my laughter.  If she'd laughed as well, it might have all turned out OK.  As it was, it was a disaster.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 7/6/2009 8:00:54 AM >

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RE: Advice for a New Domme - 7/6/2009 8:15:50 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		The follow ups are much more like you, Sea.  Absolutely more in line with the high quality, thought provoking posts that you have been known to write.  (For the topics of yours that have been serious.  Of course, I appreciate your comedy as well.)

I think part of what you are describing here is offering the advice to new Dominants that I simply refer to as don't fall in the trap.  Yes, that bitch goddess thing could be hot for play time, but play time isn't all of the time.  If an interpersonal relationship is going to exist within the dynamic, a Dominant still has to be a person that the sub wants to be involved with.  It might be a fun fantasy for certain subs, but the reality might be different than they expect.  Enjoying humiliation is good in it's doses, but as a constant, it would lose it's appeal and become abusive.

Where I tend to run into this is the impression that some folks have when they associate My name with My enjoyment of high protocol.  Automatically, it is assumed that I am cool and aloof, never treating My boy as a person.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  While we don't have a romantic type of dynamic, it most certainly is a personal one. 

Like many of the posts you, Sea, have written prior on submissive components, I do think the same is true of Dominants.  The sadistic component, the protocol drive, the power/control/authority needs, and more are all wrapped up in it.  I actually see this as easily compared as two sides of the same coin.  Different components have pull in ways depending on how important any one is compared to the other and in what doses.  How much or how little of those components one needs in a dynamic can be a fantastic way to help determine compatibility.



Edited because the word is "lose" not "lost"


< Message edited by LadyPact -- 7/6/2009 8:17:32 AM >

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Advice for a New Domme - 7/6/2009 8:20:27 AM   
lobodomslavery


Posts: 2477
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline 		my advice
1 don t judge the person
2 dont judge the person
3. dont judge the person
and that goes for subs and Dommes.  There is too much labelling in this world. Either play with him/her or dont but dont make excuses, that he/she is incapable, unable to consent, blah blah blah
kevin

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Advice for a New Domme - 7/7/2009 12:57:25 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Sorry, but that last bit there is BS.  I have said multiple times on these boards that in regard to wiitwd, you must judge people to an extent.  Do you not have to judge the competency of a top if you are going to bottom to them?  Do you not have to judge whether or not the person is trustworthy to adhere to a safeword?  Do you not have to judge if a person is able to execute control if you give it to them?

That does not just hold true on one side of the kneel.  It goes for Dominants, too.  It would be My belief that we have to use our judgments effectively in regard to who we chose to play with or allow in our lives.  Right now, on another forum, there is a question being asked about what to do if a sub regrets a scene and calls it rape.  If a sub is a compulsive liar, don't I have to judge whether I can believe the person that his consent to S/m play will still be valid after I've scened with him?  If I know a person is a thief, do I not have a right to judge his character and use that to base Me decision on whether or not it would be wise to allow him to serve in My home?  If I have two subs that want to serve Me, and one has a set of skills or form of protocol that is more compatable with Me and My life, shouldn't I use My judgement to determine which is a better fit for Me?

People see the word judgment as one that has a negative connection.  The fact is, that really isn't true.  It means assessment and generally refers to the considered evaluation of evidence in formulating a decision.  If someone can not live up to that potential assessment, the fault is not Mine.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to lobodomslavery)
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RE: Advice for a New Domme - 7/8/2009 1:56:40 AM   
lobodomslavery


Posts: 2477
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline 		What i mean is  this
) dont label , simply play with him/her or dont play with him/her. You dont have to give a reason to the person. More than likely if You don t wish to play with him/her, if said sub has any intelligence he will know already that he is not a suitable match for You. But You dont have to bad mouth or label him into the bargain ie calling him a liar, untrustworthy etc
This goes for sub s to Dommes too
kevin

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 15
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