RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing

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nelly33 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/8/2009 1:09:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: nelly33 In Buffalo, where I live, some people do fight dogs, as part of the culture they were raised in. Not all American culture is the same. Ahh but in all America, dog fighting is a crime, as is drug dealing. SO it doesn't matter what culture they think they come from or whether they see it as a way of life. It's CRIME pure and simple. quote: ORIGINAL: nelly33 And some of the people that deal with drugs where I live do it even though the pay is poor... If that's true, then they don't have the smarts God gave the common dog. And they deserve whatever they get as a result of their ways. That's why I always smile when I see news articles about someone either being thrown in jail or sent to the morgue because of their criminal ways. They chose the life, they get to deal with the consequences of that choice. For that, I have zero sympathy. to your first point, I agree that it is a crime, and I agree that both things are wrong, IN MY MIND, but the fact that something is illegal alone doesn't make it wrong. As for the second part, it is true. People get involved in drugs even though the pay is poor, because sometimes they don't see any way out. Your second part of the statement shows that you haven't really ever been around the culture I'm talking about. And to smile when someone goes to the morgue or jail? I'd say that finding joy in others misfortunes isn't really much better than drug dealing...

Loki45 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/8/2009 1:18:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nelly33 to your first point, I agree that it is a crime, and I agree that both things are wrong, IN MY MIND, but the fact that something is illegal alone doesn't make it wrong. According to our legal system, it does. quote: ORIGINAL: nelly33 As for the second part, it is true. People get involved in drugs even though the pay is poor, because sometimes they don't see any way out. Your second part of the statement shows that you haven't really ever been around the culture I'm talking about. And to smile when someone goes to the morgue or jail? I'd say that finding joy in others misfortunes isn't really much better than drug dealing... Oh I do. Because the misfortunes they face are entirely brought on by themselves. You see you stated that they engage in such things because they don't see any way out. Well, people are born into shit areas into shit circumstances and into shit lives every day. And just as frequently, they rise above those circumstances and make something better for themselves withOUT going outside the law or what is right or wrong. So the excuse that they see no way out is bullshit and I don't buy it. They do what they do because it's easy, nothing more. You know, while I detest drug dealers, I do wish one day that all that stuff were legal. You see if it were regulated like alcohol, the drug dealers would be out of business. After all, who'd pay their prices when they could get it cheaper from regulated sources. Then the drug dealers of the world would actually have to WORK for a living instead of taking the easy road.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/8/2009 2:56:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild Everyone who came from a disadvantaged childhood, or lack of good nutrition growing up or experienced mild to severe abuse are able to walk away from that and become productive citizens and not criminals. The end result is the individual still has that fee will and the choice to decide to be pro-active about their situation and not wallow in playing the victim for the rest of their lives. Reading study after study after study about a criminal mind and poor education/poor nutrition etc only explain a possible connection which still, leaves a large margin of error. To solely blame extraneous influences and not consider the poor choices a criminal makes is simply a bloody cop out on personal responsibility. Not all of us who got a raw deal in childhood grew into a criminal and not all who had a perfect upbringing became a criminal. I'll attest to that myself. But you know what? It wasn't some amazing personal quality that I had, that others lacked, that allowed me to make it. It was sheer dumb luck. And most of the people that I know that didn't make it out of the trap they were in, failed because of sheer dumb luck. "Personal responsibility" is a load of hooey that people come up with to feel special and better about themselves. It's a cop-out to keep people from coiling up in sheer terror, realizing just how quickly everything can fall apart around them. There aren't "good" and "bad" people; there's just shit that happens. Some people are born damaged. Some people are damaged by circumstance. And some people just never get a break. And the rest of us get to sit on our high-horses and talk about "personal responsibility" and "poor choices". And I'm not talking about wallowing or playing the victim, here. I'm talking about straining your elbow patting yourself on the back for coming out of childhood with most of your drive, ambition, and sense of community intact. Not everyone gets to have that, and it's nothing particularly special about us that we do. We were just the lucky ones.

nelly33 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/8/2009 4:24:14 PM)
anyone who claims that drug-dealing is easy work is sadly misinformed. and just because two different people were raised in bad enviroments does not make the environments the same. I think that you and I are just from different parts of town I suppose.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/8/2009 5:55:15 PM)
quote: anyone who claims that drug-dealing is easy work is sadly misinformed. and just because two different people were raised in bad enviroments does not make the environments the same. I think that you and I are just from different parts of town I suppose. Agreed, criminality of any kind is not easy work. You have to have knowledge in your particular trade to do it. I wouldn't know how to sell drugs, I have no idea what crack, heroin, or marijuana is going for these days. I wouldn't know who to contact if I wanted to retail drugs on the streets. The wholesalers don't exactly advertise their goods in the local paper. If I wanted to get into thievery, I wouldn't know how. I don't know where to fence stolen goods. I don't know how to jimmy locks, crack safes, or what would be the best thing to target for theft. I've heard that precious stones and metals are best, but who are the buyers that won't report me to the cops. Where are the chop shops if I decide to get into car theft? Beats me. How do you launder large amounts of money? You can't exactly deposit your large earnings in your checking account after a score. Since jail and prisons is part of being a criminal, you have to know how to hustle and deal in that world too. I wouldn't know how if I caught a charge. Likewise, I agree that one bad environment doesn't equal another. I grew up with guys that lived in the poorest trailer parks you can imagine. They had alcoholic/addict parents. They were as poor if not poorer than someone growing up in a housing project. The big difference is that trailer parks aren't filled up with professional criminals willing to apprentice young, aspiring criminals. People that make simple-minded comments about crime are naive. They have no notion about what they are talking about.

Aneirin -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/8/2009 6:19:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen These people are research scientists at various universities R - they are researching and finding this stuff. It is for we the people (or, our masters rather) to decide what to do with the information. Punishing people for their subnormal (subhuman even) status though? Sounds a bit dangerous to me as a principle. E So, assuming these learned people come up with something our masters can use to avoid the problem of prison overcrowding, what is the answer. Maybe what some Scandinavian countries did somewhere around the 1950's, round up all the vagrants, no goods and habitually criminal minded families and under the pretence of health care and removal of tonsils, they were sterilised. Is that the way forward, wipe out what scientists (who would be better employed elsewhere), say is the reason for our ills. But when they are gone and society still appears to be wrong, who gets it next. Criminality just like non criminality is a choice, those that know no better, will be educated sooner or later, is that not the one of the purposes of punishment when convicted. Interesting thought, laws exist to be broken.

subfever -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/8/2009 6:25:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth "Personal responsibility" is a load of hooey that people come up with to feel special and better about themselves. It's a cop-out to keep people from coiling up in sheer terror, realizing just how quickly everything can fall apart around them. There aren't "good" and "bad" people; there's just shit that happens. Some people are born damaged. Some people are damaged by circumstance. And some people just never get a break. And the rest of us get to sit on our high-horses and talk about "personal responsibility" and "poor choices". And I'm not talking about wallowing or playing the victim, here. I'm talking about straining your elbow patting yourself on the back for coming out of childhood with most of your drive, ambition, and sense of community intact. Not everyone gets to have that, and it's nothing particularly special about us that we do. We were just the lucky ones. Nice post. It amazes me how judgemental people are, never even considering how quickly and profoundly circumstances could change for them. How one could be so smugly certain that they'd play the game arrow-straight regardless of their environment, is beyond me. Unless we have walked in another man's shoes, we cannot possibly know the effects that his dysfunctional environment has had upon him over his lifetime. So what if some people have managed to escape a dysfunctional environment relatively unscathed? We are not all wired the same. Some have different strengths and weaknesses. Some have different neurochemical responses to certain stimuli. Some have a different, learned perception of what it takes to survive.

Loki45 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/8/2009 6:27:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nelly33 anyone who claims that drug-dealing is easy work is sadly misinformed. and just because two different people were raised in bad enviroments does not make the environments the same. I think that you and I are just from different parts of town I suppose. You can debate the nuances all you like. Drug-dealing and any other form of illegally making a 'quick buck' is still easier than an honest day's worth of work. There are different things you have to know or watch out for, but a 60-hour week making minimum wage is far tougher than sporadically selling drugs or some other form of criminal endeavor.

subfever -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/8/2009 6:28:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Interesting thought, laws exist to be broken. Laws are created for problems that technology hasn't solved yet.

beargonewild -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/8/2009 6:37:30 PM)
"Unless we have walked in another man's shoes, we cannot possibly know the effects that his dysfunctional environment has had upon him over his lifetime" True yet the bare bones truth is we as humans still have free will and the ability to make the choices which leads us away from an environment of dysfunction and change that into functionality. Anyone who has grown up in a dysfunctional life doesn't have to overcome the odds and become a world leader or a rocket scientist, just make better choices for themselves to have a life with less dysfunction and an asset to themself and to society. The success stories of overcoming all odds to be a better person is merely taking steps and choosing something other then being a victim of life's circumstances.

Loki45 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/8/2009 6:50:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild "Unless we have walked in another man's shoes, we cannot possibly know the effects that his dysfunctional environment has had upon him over his lifetime" True yet the bare bones truth is we as humans still have free will and the ability to make the choices which leads us away from an environment of dysfunction and change that into functionality. Anyone who has grown up in a dysfunctional life doesn't have to overcome the odds and become a world leader or a rocket scientist, just make better choices for themselves to have a life with less dysfunction and an asset to themself and to society. The success stories of overcoming all odds to be a better person is merely taking steps and choosing something other then being a victim of life's circumstances. Well said.

nelly33 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/8/2009 7:02:01 PM)
these are not "nuances". For many, drug-dealing is not a quick buck. To assume it is, is to be ignorant of the way it really works. Ialdabaoth, I really like the post you made as well. I like what bear said as well. I am not advocating criminality in my posts, I am just stating what most credited sociologists take as fact, (sources, Gaines, and also Elliot Currie, and many more.) Thinking that drug-dealing is a quick buck is listening to what the media tells you. It is not fast money for most of the people involved. You would be better to think of it as a corporation like Wallmart. There are CEO's and the like, but they are far outwieghed by middle management, and the vast majority of the people are just peons in the scheme of things. I also like slaveboys post. Now Loki, I have provided sources that show that most drug dealers are not actually earners... you can look them up where I have said. To try to get back to the topic in some way... If upbringing should not be a factor in how an adult turns out, then why are people from group homes, or from the inner city dissproportionately into crime? Is it just a matter of great coincidence that those from urban areas commit more crime? To say upbringing isn't a factor, and to say that everyone can make themselves a good, law-abiding citizen, well then that just "proves" that those in the city are worse people, and that minorites are worse people, since statistically they commit more crimes. I don't believe that, and I don't think anybody else here does either. But how else would you suggest the statistics?

subfever -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/8/2009 7:03:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild "Unless we have walked in another man's shoes, we cannot possibly know the effects that his dysfunctional environment has had upon him over his lifetime" True yet the bare bones truth is we as humans still have free will and the ability to make the choices which leads us away from an environment of dysfunction and change that into functionality. Anyone who has grown up in a dysfunctional life doesn't have to overcome the odds and become a world leader or a rocket scientist, just make better choices for themselves to have a life with less dysfunction and an asset to themself and to society. The success stories of overcoming all odds to be a better person is merely taking steps and choosing something other then being a victim of life's circumstances. Yes, humans with clear, functional minds have free will and the ability to make choices to move away from dysfunction. But as I previously quoted, we are not all wired the same. Some have different strengths and weaknesses. Some have different neurochemical responses to certain stimuli. Some have a different and learned perception of what it takes to survive. How different is this from someone getting sick from prolonged exposure to a biohazard in his immediate environment? Would you judge him negatively too?

nelly33 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/8/2009 7:07:26 PM)
well played.

Loki45 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/8/2009 7:08:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nelly33 these are not "nuances". For many, drug-dealing is not a quick buck. To assume it is, is to be ignorant of the way it really works. Ialdabaoth, I really like the post you made as well. I like what bear said as well. I am not advocating criminality in my posts, I am just stating what most credited sociologists take as fact, (sources, Gaines, and also Elliot Currie, and many more.) Thinking that drug-dealing is a quick buck is listening to what the media tells you. It is not fast money for most of the people involved. You would be better to think of it as a corporation like Wallmart. There are CEO's and the like, but they are far outwieghed by middle management, and the vast majority of the people are just peons in the scheme of things. I also like slaveboys post. Now Loki, I have provided sources that show that most drug dealers are not actually earners... you can look them up where I have said. To try to get back to the topic in some way... If upbringing should not be a factor in how an adult turns out, then why are people from group homes, or from the inner city dissproportionately into crime? Is it just a matter of great coincidence that those from urban areas commit more crime? To say upbringing isn't a factor, and to say that everyone can make themselves a good, law-abiding citizen, well then that just "proves" that those in the city are worse people, and that minorites are worse people, since statistically they commit more crimes. I don't believe that, and I don't think anybody else here does either. But how else would you suggest the statistics? You know, it's clear we're not going to agree. And despite your assertion that you are not advocating criminality, it sure sounds like you're trying to justify it or have us recognize it as a legitimate pursuit. The simple fact is as bear said, we all make choices. Some make the right ones, some do not. Don't expect me to have sympathy for those who do not. Everyone faces choices in their lives. It's what we choose to do with those choices that makes us who we are. Some are ok with being criminals. Some are not.

nelly33 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/8/2009 7:13:26 PM)
I am trying to make the point that there are people that do see it as legit, and your point of view does not prevail in all parts of the country. If it sounds like I am advocating it, it is because I am trying to get my point across. In one of your earlier posts, you said that you despised those that sell drugs because they sell garbage to people. It sounds like you have sympathy for the addicts, but didn't they make the wrong choices as well? Do you have sympathy for them? If so, why? They made their choices just like everybody else as well.

beargonewild -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/8/2009 7:15:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild "Unless we have walked in another man's shoes, we cannot possibly know the effects that his dysfunctional environment has had upon him over his lifetime" True yet the bare bones truth is we as humans still have free will and the ability to make the choices which leads us away from an environment of dysfunction and change that into functionality. Anyone who has grown up in a dysfunctional life doesn't have to overcome the odds and become a world leader or a rocket scientist, just make better choices for themselves to have a life with less dysfunction and an asset to themself and to society. The success stories of overcoming all odds to be a better person is merely taking steps and choosing something other then being a victim of life's circumstances. Yes, humans with clear, functional minds have free will and the ability to make choices to move away from dysfunction. But as I previously quoted, we are not all wired the same. Some have different strengths and weaknesses. Some have different neurochemical responses to certain stimuli. Some have a different and learned perception of what it takes to survive. How different is this from someone getting sick from prolonged exposure to a biohazard in his immediate environment? Would you judge him negatively too? I am fully aware of you stating that " not all are wired the same." Yet a person is able to draw upon their own strengths and weakness and use them in the best possible way. Though I somewhat fail to see how your example is directly related to the general theme of this thread though I will try to answer. If a person gets sick from prolonged exposure to a bio hazard in the immediate area.....they could relocate, try to solve the bio hazard issue if possible, seek outside help to remove the bio hazard or other possible solutions I can't think at the moment. I am curious why you assume I was judging negatively? I was simply offering up my own opinions to the thread.

beargonewild -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/8/2009 7:19:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nelly33 I am trying to make the point that there are people that do see it as legit, and your point of view does not prevail in all parts of the country. If it sounds like I am advocating it, it is because I am trying to get my point across. In one of your earlier posts, you said that you despised those that sell drugs because they sell garbage to people. It sounds like you have sympathy for the addicts, but didn't they make the wrong choices as well? Do you have sympathy for them? If so, why? They made their choices just like everybody else as well. Remember that in the beginning it was a poor choice for the person to experiment with a highly addictive drug. Yet there is a line which is crossed where that choice to stop and walk away is no longer in the user's hands. Other situations that choice is still there yet it is never taken.

Loki45 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/8/2009 7:27:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nelly33 I am trying to make the point that there are people that do see it as legit, and your point of view does not prevail in all parts of the country. And I'm trying to tell you I don't give a rat's ass what a crack dealer sees as legit. In the eyes of the law, it is NOT legit by a long shot. I could tell you I see mass murder as legit, but that doesn't make it so. quote: ORIGINAL: nelly33 In one of your earlier posts, you said that you despised those that sell drugs because they sell garbage to people. It sounds like you have sympathy for the addicts, but didn't they make the wrong choices as well? Do you have sympathy for them? If so, why? They made their choices just like everybody else as well. Firstly, I never indicated sympathy for addicts. However, the biggest problem people have had with dealers is two-fold: 1) Their 'turf wars' and competition gets innocent people killed and 2) Dealers will sell to anyone, including kids who will seek out anything that makes them feel grown up (ie below the age of consent). That is what I have a problem with. Secondly, addicts and the crimes they commit are partially the responsibility of the dealer. It's a sick little symbiotic relationship. The addict needs what the dealer sells and desires to get it by any means necessary. If one or both parties made better choices in life, there'd be no issue as far as that's concerned.

nelly33 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/8/2009 7:35:58 PM)
Ok, I see your point of view. But legality isn't always a good dial for what is right or not... laws can change. Gay marriage is against the law... does that mean that gay marriage is wrong? I would say not. These are not comparable situations, I am aware, I am just trying to show that the law doesn't make something correct. You also seem quick to lump all of the drug dealers together... I suggest a source of information besides what is taught in public schools or television. I do apologize for misinterpreting you, if I wrongly thought you blamed the dealers for the addicts though. Bear, I agree with your point about addiction, and agree that there is a line. And Loki, you are right that it is a symbiotic relationship. However, again, to point out environment... there is a reason that most crack addicts are in the inner cities. This cannot be because of a random distribution of people with no self-control. There is a reason for the location of most drug addicts... ubbringing. This is an attempt by me to get back to the topic, which I took no small part in disrailing myself.

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