RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing

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Loki45 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/10/2009 12:18:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly you are describing serious traits of a psychopath... They described it differently. Psychopaths share traits with other disorders. She was described as being hyper rational and with a genius I.Q.

Loki45 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/10/2009 12:27:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth Why? Why? Why not? People need to know there are consequences for their actions or all that talk about doing right is a lot of hot air. Trust me, one of the worst motivating factors in doing right is the knowledge that you won't get into trouble if you don't. If a person chooses to harm others, steal from others, or any combination therein....he needs to be locked up. Because by that point, he's a lost cause. quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth Or you could figure out what's motivating them to "choose" wrong anyways, and see what you can do about that. The harsh authoritarian-parent trick never worked with most of my friends, and the ones it did work on came out of childhood... well, "broken" is the best word I can give for it, with the same connotation as when we use the word to describe horses. We covered this. However, as I said, there's only so much you can do in that arena. You can teach them right from wrong, you can show them why they should do right, you can understand everything about them. But the moment they learn nothing will happen to them for doing what you told them is 'wrong' they do it anyway. I never said anything about a harsh authoritarian parent trick. I said there must be consequences when someone does wrong. You've seen people come from broken homes. I've seen a perfectly fine home produce a scumbag because he learned early on there were no consequences for his actions. quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth Personally, I'd prefer for people to understand what they're doing to themselves. Most of the time, "wrong" is just plain stupid. It's like the drug dealer thing - these kids could do better working at McDonald's, but there's social structures in place that keep them from seeing it that way. Now, if we're willing to accept that these people are already too far gone, then I'm actually okay - on that basis - with some sort of pogrom/euthanasia against them. Hell, at least then we'd be forced to confront our decisions honestly. But I'm not okay with our current mode of "punishment", because that's like rubbing salmonella-and-botfly-infested shit into a wound. You know what? Sometimes people just don't care what they're doing to themselves. Look at drunk drivers. Look at smokers. Does ANYONE have any doubt that excessive drinking (and driving) is bad? Does anyone here believe that inhaling SMOKE into your lungs is good for you? No. But do people still do it? They most certainly do.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/11/2009 9:04:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth Why? Why? Why not? I'm gonna stop right here. When I ask why someone should seek to harm someone else, and any part of the response is "why not?", I feel a bit of a chill. And face it, that's what punishment is: an attempt to harm someone, to get them to do what you want them to do (or to stop them from doing what you don't want them to do). You can draw whatever arbitrary lines you want around "what you want them to do", and call certain acts 'wrong' or 'immoral' or 'illegal', but ultimately punishment is about attempting to coerce someone to do what you want, by finding ways to make them suffer. And you know, I understand why sometimes the only way we have to control someone's behavior is by inflicting suffering. But if there are other ways, we should do those instead of inflicting suffering. I misspoke when I said I wanted less crime - what I *truly* want is less suffering. And yeah, sometimes we have to inflict suffering in one place to abate suffering elsewhere, just like sometimes a surgeon has to cut in order to heal. But there's a difference between surgery and bleeding someone to death with leeches, and I'm afraid that our justice system is still very much in the medieval leech-bleeding phase. We need something better. Explorations like the one referenced by the OP - where people try to figure out why people tend towards negative behavior, and where people then use that knowledge to curb negative behavior without inflicting harm - are, to me, the mark of a civilized society. Clamourings for blood and retribution, on the other hand, are the mark of barbarism. quote: "You can dance if you want to, when the barbs go through your pants. You claim you can't dance But if you don't dance then why did you piss your pants? Taser dance.........doin' the taser dance." Also, this? Equally uncool.

Loki45 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/11/2009 9:28:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth I'm gonna stop right here. When I ask why someone should seek to harm someone else, and any part of the response is "why not?", I feel a bit of a chill. Then you should re-read the exchange that led to that statement. I never said I wanted them hurt. I said I wanted harsh punishment. There is a difference. quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth And face it, that's what punishment is: an attempt to harm someone, to get them to do what you want them to do (or to stop them from doing what you don't want them to do). You can draw whatever arbitrary lines you want around "what you want them to do", and call certain acts 'wrong' or 'immoral' or 'illegal', but ultimately punishment is about attempting to coerce someone to do what you want, by finding ways to make them suffer. You should look up the definition of punishment then. As it is a penalty imposed for wrong doing. Not "harm." quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth And you know, I understand why sometimes the only way we have to control someone's behavior is by inflicting suffering. But if there are other ways, we should do those instead of inflicting suffering. I misspoke when I said I wanted less crime - what I *truly* want is less suffering. And yeah, sometimes we have to inflict suffering in one place to abate suffering elsewhere, just like sometimes a surgeon has to cut in order to heal. But there's a difference between surgery and bleeding someone to death with leeches, and I'm afraid that our justice system is still very much in the medieval leech-bleeding phase. We need something better. Wonder all you like. Why not ask the criminals who rape and murder why we need to 'punish' them. How about you ask some victim's families that question, like for example the victim-father who recently was 'smiled at' by the murderer of his child while being led to his seat in the courtroom. After that little 'smile,' the murderer got the living shit kicked out of him by the victim's family. The fact is criminals are getting worse, not better. We're seeing them start so young they can't even join this site legally, yet they're taking guns to school and murdering people. Looking at people like that and saying "awwww I wanna understand you" ain't gonna do shit. quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth Explorations like the one referenced by the OP - where people try to figure out why people tend towards negative behavior, and where people then use that knowledge to curb negative behavior without inflicting harm - are, to me, the mark of a civilized society. Clamourings for blood and retribution, on the other hand, are the mark of barbarism. It's not about retribution. It's about justice. Even the bible (taken with a grain of salt) says an eye for an eye. For when we stop punishing the criminals, we give them free license to do what they please. quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth Also, this? Equally uncool. You know what they say about opinions. I find it very cool when someone's been given repeated warnings and chooses to ignore them only to be shown that the warnings were not bullshit. In that case, they brought it on themselves. They have no one to blame but the one in the mirror. As it's been said before, you can only teach, warn, etc so much.....sooner or later you will have to show them why they should listen. You know what? I want you to answer this hypothetical scenario for me: You walk into your house, and see a man standing over the lifeless body of your loved one. He's covered in blood and has the most soul-less, evil look in his eyes and he's SMILING. The more you look in disbelief, the more he seems to enjoy it. He looks you in the eye and says "oh...it wasn't my fault, dude....it was my upbringing." And then laughs. What do you do? Do you sit there and say "Oh that's ok, man. I'm sure you had it bad." Do you say "What could have been so bad that made you do this? How can I help you not do this again?" What do you do? No matter what the guy's upbringing, you can't travel back in time and fix it so he doesn't go bad....and kill your loved one. Your loved one is dead. In a pool of blood and the murderer is looking you in the eye and mocking you as though his football team just beat yours in the superbowl. What do you do?

slaveboyforyou -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/11/2009 9:51:38 PM)
quote: I'm gonna stop right here. When I ask why someone should seek to harm someone else, and any part of the response is "why not?", I feel a bit of a chill. Ialdabaoth, I agree with you. But trust me, you're wasting your time trying to explain this. Any of us who express an interest in applying reasoning, rationality, and compassion towards our crime problem are branded as "bleeding hearts." The "off with their heads" crowd seems to forget how many people we actually lock up. They also seem to forget how much it costs. They don't want to hear that minimum security facilities, rehab, vocational programs, and the like cost less than harsher punishments. They don't read the statistics, they don't read the government reports on costs. They are ill informed, and unfortunately they make up the majority of the voting public. quote: Also, this? Equally uncool. It's not just uncool, it something a child would think is funny. It shows a complete lack of empathy and compassion. You can't really talk to someone that thinks in this manner. One day, when his 3rd or 4th wife has left him, he is in the gutter, and he has to grow up...then maybe he'll understand what empathy and forgiveness is.

Loki45 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/11/2009 10:10:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou Ialdabaoth, I agree with you. But trust me, you're wasting your time trying to explain this. Any of us who express an interest in applying reasoning, rationality, and compassion towards our crime problem are branded as "bleeding hearts." The "off with their heads" crowd seems to forget how many people we actually lock up. They also seem to forget how much it costs. They don't want to hear that minimum security facilities, rehab, vocational programs, and the like cost less than harsher punishments. They don't read the statistics, they don't read the government reports on costs. They are ill informed, and unfortunately they make up the majority of the voting public. Trying to understand is not what earns you the title of bleeding heart. But trying to excuse criminals who would kill you as soon as look at you is. If you had it your way, criminals would roam free and the innocent people would live their lives (their short lives) in constant fear. quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou It's not just uncool, it something a child would think is funny. It shows a complete lack of empathy and compassion. You can't really talk to someone that thinks in this manner. One day, when his 3rd or 4th wife has left him, he is in the gutter, and he has to grow up...then maybe he'll understand what empathy and forgiveness is. Still trying the personal attack, huh kiddo? How cute. I loved the bit about my 3rd or 4th wife. Like I would ever want to get married to begin with. Nice try, but I believe we call that an "epic fail." Tell you what, why do you answer the same hypothetical I posed to him. You gonna just let the murderer go? C'mon. You talk a great game about our justice system. Man up and answer the question. You're looking at a cold-blooded killer who just killed your loved one and is smiling and laughing at you. What do you do?

Ialdabaoth -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/11/2009 10:22:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 You know what? I want you to answer this hypothetical scenario for me: You walk into your house, and see a man standing over the lifeless body of your loved one. He's covered in blood and has the most soul-less, evil look in his eyes and he's SMILING. The more you look in disbelief, the more he seems to enjoy it. He looks you in the eye and says "oh...it wasn't my fault, dude....it was my upbringing." And then laughs. What do you do? Do you sit there and say "Oh that's ok, man. I'm sure you had it bad." Do you say "What could have been so bad that made you do this? How can I help you not do this again?" What do you do? No matter what the guy's upbringing, you can't travel back in time and fix it so he doesn't go bad....and kill your loved one. Your loved one is dead. In a pool of blood and the murderer is looking you in the eye and mocking you as though his football team just beat yours in the superbowl. What do you do? What do I do? I detain him and call the police, of course. What do I want to happen to him? That really depends. If he can be salvaged, that would be preferrable - but if he's far gone enough, then yes - we may need to put him down. But does that mean we dehumanize him in the process? I certainly hope not. Of everything in that scenario that's happened to me, how will harming this man get me my lover back? What can I possibly do to this man, that will put things back the way they should be? It's impossible; the only thing we can do is move forward, and create the best possible future out of what we've been presented. If this person can be repaired, then we repair him. If he can't, then we remove him from the population - quickly, cleanly, and without a whit of retribution or satisfaction about it. We kill him with the full understanding that we have failed him, and we put him down the way you put down an ailing pet that you simply can't afford to keep alive anymore. I'll tell you what we don't do, though. We don't gloat over the fact that we caught him. We don't rough him up. We don't let the cops rough him up for us. We don't "hope he fries". We don't hope he suffers in Hell. We sure as hell don't try to make his stint in prison any longer or worse than it has to be, because that won't help anyone. We fix him, or we put him down, and we do whichever of those we're going to do as humanely and as cleanly and as efficiently as we can. You, on the other hand, seem to have a little too much lust for punishment for my comfort.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/11/2009 10:25:39 PM)
I wasn't talking to you Loki. I thought you didn't care about my opinion. I certainly wasn't making a personal attack. I was addressing the post that Ialdabaoth made. I've never excused "killers." I've never excused violent criminals in my life. What you fail to understand is that the overwhelming majority of offenders in our criminal justice system are there for non-violent crimes. 1 in 7 American males will encounter the criminal justice system at one time in their lives. You really don't understand what you're talking about. I have 20 hours of schooling in criminal justice. It was my major at one time in college, it eventually became my minor. I've visited 6 prisons, I've rode with police officers, I've sat in court rooms with a parole officer for a day watching violation hearings, I've interviewed both correctional officers and prisoners. I've done a lot more than you have. I know the history of all of it; I've read it. You don't seem to know much at all, and that's not an attack. If you knew anything, you'd know that even correctional officers prefer minimum security and rehab for the majority of our inmates. It cost less, it's safer for the CO's, the inmates are less likely to attempt escape, and it's more successful than just punishing people. But you refuse to listen to reason. You go with your emotions. Well, you do that. You keep on thinking in that manner. As for my last post, it wasn't addressed to you. As for what I do, it's none of your business. I have a job. I doubt very seriously that you'd volunteer the same information, so why would you expect me to?

Loki45 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/11/2009 10:28:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth What do I do? I detain him and call the police, of course. What do I want to happen to him? That really depends. If he can be salvaged, that would be preferrable Wow, I'm sure glad I'm not one of your loved ones then. Your loved one....dead in a pool of blood and this fucker just smiling and laughing and you want to salvage him. Well with loved ones like you, your loved ones don't need any enemies. quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth - but if he's far gone enough, then yes - we may need to put him down. I thought the hypothetical illustration I painted made it clear enough....the man enjoyed what he did and isn't interested in being saved. Seriously...a guy is laughing at you, standing over the corpse of your loved one and you're going to try and 'salvage' him? Just...wow. quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth We kill him with the full understanding that we have failed him, and we put him down the way you put down an ailing pet that you simply can't afford to keep alive anymore. Some killers haven't been failed by society.....they themselves have failed society. quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth I'll tell you what we don't do, though. We don't gloat over the fact that we caught him. We don't rough him up. We don't let the cops rough him up for us. We don't "hope he fries". We don't hope he suffers in Hell. We sure as hell don't try to make his stint in prison any longer or worse than it has to be, because that won't help anyone. We fix him, or we put him down, and we do whichever of those we're going to do as humanely and as cleanly and as efficiently as we can. You, on the other hand, seem to have a little too much lust for punishment for my comfort. It's not lust that makes me smile when I see criminals punished. It's a sense of justice. It's like cracking a joke in the face of terror to avoid going insane. This world is fucked. It's been heading that way for some time now and it's not getting any better. You can find humor in daily activities or you can go mad wondering why all the time. I look at it as someone bringing harm on themselves ala Jackass on MTV. If you apply a taser to your own balls, don't expect me to say "ohhhh I'm sorry" when you scream in pain. Same thing applies with my sig. If the guy is told numerous times to stop (or whatever the situation is) then he deserves what he gets. Period. People say "If we can't laugh at ourselves, who can we laugh at?" Well, I can laugh at myself QUITE easily and quite often. So I can laugh at anything I find funny. And funny, to me, is Darwin's Law in action. Darwin's Law is the one that can't be beaten, reasoned with or avoided. If you prove yourself too stupid to survive this world.....you won't.

Loki45 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/11/2009 10:31:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou I wasn't talking to you Loki. I thought you didn't care about my opinion. I certainly wasn't making a personal attack. I was addressing the post that Ialdabaoth made. Way to dodge the question. quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou As for what I do, it's none of your business. I have a job. I doubt very seriously that you'd volunteer the same information, so why would you expect me to? I didn't ask what you did. I asked what you would do if you saw a loved one murdered in front of you. And as expected, you dodged the question. So thank you for confirming what I suspected from the start. Bravo. [sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif] It's so easy to talk of saving the person and 'understanding' the person when you're not the victim.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/11/2009 10:34:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 Wow, I'm sure glad I'm not one of your loved ones then. Your loved one....dead in a pool of blood and this fucker just smiling and laughing and you want to salvage him. Well with loved ones like you, your loved ones don't need any enemies. And THAT statement is a direct impugnment upon my honor. You have no concept - no basis to judge - how I treat my loved ones. If you think that revenge and blood-feuds are a proper show of love and loyalty, then you are a seriously damaged individual. I have sat beside people, fighting to stay awake into the cold hours of the night, so that they would not be alone while they were sick and afraid. I have given people the last of my food, the last of my money, my own bed, my own clothes, all so they would not go without. I have given my loved ones years of solace, and protection, and consel, and reassurance, and love. I have loved fiercely and true for all my days. You have no place to question my love. None. That you would even think to do so at all - let alone to win a petty, trivial, inane little forum-conversation like this, says more about your character than anything you've said so far. I truly hope whatever has damaged you is repaired someday. In the meantime, since I know none of what I've said is going to register to you at all... all I can say is I'm sorry. I truly wish things were better for you, and - for what it's worth to you - I love you. May you find peace.

Loki45 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/11/2009 10:38:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 Wow, I'm sure glad I'm not one of your loved ones then. Your loved one....dead in a pool of blood and this fucker just smiling and laughing and you want to salvage him. Well with loved ones like you, your loved ones don't need any enemies. And THAT statement is a direct impugnment upon my honor. You have no concept - no basis to judge - how I treat my loved ones. If you think that revenge and blood-feuds are a proper show of love and loyalty, then you are a seriously damaged individual. I have sat beside people, fighting to stay awake into the cold hours of the night, so that they would not be alone while they were sick and afraid. I have given people the last of my food, the last of my money, my own bed, my own clothes, all so they would not go without. I have given my loved ones years of solace, and protection, and consel, and reassurance, and love. I have loved fiercely and true for all my days. You have no place to question my love. None. That you would even think to do so at all - let alone to win a petty, trivial, inane little forum-conversation like this, says more about your character than anything you've said so far. I truly hope whatever has damaged you is repaired someday. In the meantime, since I know none of what I've said is going to register to you at all... all I can say is I'm sorry. I truly wish things were better for you, and - for what it's worth to you - I love you. May you find peace. And yet....after all this rhetoric, you say you would try to 'salvage' their murderer. That, to me, is what shows an absence of emotion. If someone I knew didn't try and seek justive for my death, I would know they didn't give a shit about me in the first place. And that is nothing to laugh at. By the way, you've got more in that original reply to read....should you care. I decided I didn't say enough the first time, so I edited it to really get my point across.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/11/2009 10:42:54 PM)
quote: I didn't ask what you did. I asked what you would do if you saw a loved one murdered in front of you. And as expected, you dodged the question. So thank you for confirming what I suspected from the start. Bravo. It's so easy to talk of saving the person and 'understanding' the person when you're not the victim. Well you know, I just wasn't paying that much attention to what you wrote. I skimmed through it. You made it perfectly clear that you didn't care what others thought. You are completely set in your beliefs. I used to actually believe in the death penalty with a passion. I wanted any killer, rapist, child molester, and the like dead. But I changed my opinion. We do that as we get older; it's called growth. Again as I have explained to you numerous times, I do not advocate letting murderers and ANY violent criminal go. Life imprisonment for the purposes of public safety is perfectly acceptable for those types of people. I don't feel sorry for people that commit those types of crimes. I just don't want innocent, wrongfully convicted people being executed. In the last 20 years, we have had a number of people exhonerated because of DNA. Some of those people were within months of their execution dates. Do you think you've won the argument by asking about family members? What if you're mother was indicted for murder? Would you get her a lawyer? Would you want her treated fairly in prison if she were convicted? My main gripe with the criminal justice system is the draconian sentences that are handed down for non-violent offenders. You seem to think everyone in prison is a killer or a rapist. The overwhelming majority are there for non-violent offenses. They are thieves, drug addicts, etc. They need help, they need the tools to reenter society. They don't need further schooling in criminality. What about that do you not understand?

Ialdabaoth -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/11/2009 10:43:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 And yet....after all this rhetoric, you say you would try to 'salvage' their murderer. That, to me, is what shows an absence of emotion. If someone I knew didn't try and seek justive for my death, I would know they didn't give a shit about me in the first place. And that is nothing to laugh at. Okay... I think I understand how you think, I just can't wrap my mind around why you think that way. I'm going to assume that we still have enough of a common basis of language to communicate, if you're willing to work with me? I'd like to understand what makes you feel that way. I mean, what is it about "justice" (in the sense of vindictive punishment) that you feel equates to "love"? And as for my lovers' wishes... most of my lovers, for example, would prefer that I handle things the way I've described. I know that if someone killed me, I wouldn't want anyone who cared about me to use my death as an excuse to continue some downward karmic spiral. Also: I find it odd that you feel that compassion is an absence of emotion. I stay my hand out of love. When I see someone hurt someone else, I feel horrible - for both of them. The emotion I seem to be lacking is "righteous anger", but I seem to have enough "compassionate pity" to fill that gap. Or do some emotions not count?

Loki45 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/11/2009 10:51:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou Well you know, I just wasn't paying that much attention to what you wrote. I skimmed through it. You made it perfectly clear that you didn't care what others thought. You are completely set in your beliefs. I used to actually believe in the death penalty with a passion. I wanted any killer, rapist, child molester, and the like dead. But I changed my opinion. We do that as we get older; it's called growth. Again as I have explained to you numerous times, I do not advocate letting murderers and ANY violent criminal go. Life imprisonment for the purposes of public safety is perfectly acceptable for those types of people. I don't feel sorry for people that commit those types of crimes. I just don't want innocent, wrongfully convicted people being executed. In the last 20 years, we have had a number of people exhonerated because of DNA. Some of those people were within months of their execution dates. Do you think you've won the argument by asking about family members? What if you're mother was indicted for murder? Would you get her a lawyer? Would you want her treated fairly in prison if she were convicted? My main gripe with the criminal justice system is the draconian sentences that are handed down for non-violent offenders. You seem to think everyone in prison is a killer or a rapist. The overwhelming majority are there for non-violent offenses. They are thieves, drug addicts, etc. They need help, they need the tools to reenter society. They don't need further schooling in criminality. What about that do you not understand? If this is still your true position, I would ask why then you saw fit to interject yourself into the situation between Ialdabaoth and myself. He appears, at least on the surface, to be in direct contradiction to you. Ok, so you're fine with my views on violent criminals. That's right. I recall that you're pro-crime as long as no one gets hurt. So what does it take to get you on board with 'draconian' sentences? How bad does someone have to fuck up before you advocate locking them up? We know from previous threads that stiffing a hard-working repair man just trying to make a living for $1,500 isn't enough. So what is? $2,000? $10,000? $100,000? At what point do we say "Ok, you're a career criminal and you're not doing society any favors...away you go to a place where you don't need money anymore."?

Loki45 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/11/2009 11:01:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth Okay... I think I understand how you think, I just can't wrap my mind around why you think that way. I'm going to assume that we still have enough of a common basis of language to communicate, if you're willing to work with me? I'd like to understand what makes you feel that way. I mean, what is it about "justice" (in the sense of vindictive punishment) that you feel equates to "love"? Not love. Caring. Something that shows you are upset that your loved one died. Let's try another and see where it goes, shall we? Ok, so your loved one isn't dead. You come home, though, and they are in the clutches of that same soul-less individual. He's not after your money, he's not after your plasma TV. He wants to watch you suffer. He wants to watch THEM suffer and for you to watch it happen. Do you let him? Do you try and stop him? There's only one way to stop him. Cops are 10 minutes away and your loved one will be slaughtered before your eyes in 60 seconds. There's only one way to stop him. What do you do? Do you allow him to succeed and then try and 'understand' him? Do you defend your loved one up to and including killing him first? Now that you're contemplating that. Let me ask this. Why is it different (assuming your answer changes)? Why would you stop him from killing, by killing him. But if he'd already done the deed, you don't seek to get justice? There are MANY cases of killers being so far gone that they enjoy jail. Take cop killers, for example. They are heralded as heroes in prison. It's a badge of fucking honor to those animals. The only class of criminal I've heard having a 'rough time' from other prisoners are those who prey on the young. Apart from that, your crime on the outside determines your status on the inside. And I've seen countless stories about someone in prison for murder or rape who ends up raping and murdering again while on the inside. quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth Also: I find it odd that you feel that compassion is an absence of emotion. I stay my hand out of love. When I see someone hurt someone else, I feel horrible - for both of them. The emotion I seem to be lacking is "righteous anger", but I seem to have enough "compassionate pity" to fill that gap. Or do some emotions not count? I don't feel compassion is the absence of emotion. But I would rather know that my loved ones cared for me as opposed to the man who just murdered me. The bible-beaters love to throw around bible verses until you get to this subject. Because on this subject the verses are very clear. Eye for an eye. Don't give me this bullshit about leaving the world blind. Murderers kill. That is what they do. If you do nothing to stop that, then you are every bit as responsible as they are for their next victims. Now let me take a moment to clear something up. I'm not gung-ho about taking a life. I talk a great game about it, but I've already pointed out in many previous posts (and my own personal beliefs) that I'm the type who prefers to make jokes, even dark jokes. Would I take a life in defence of my loved ones? Yep. I wouldn't hesitate for a second. Would I be happy-go-lucky afterward? Not likely. But you see, I'm prepared to live with that if it means justice is done or a crime is prevented. Because the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. And I refuse to do nothing in that instance. I won't apologize for having a dark sense of humor. The world is fucked and we have to find humor where we can or we go nuts.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/11/2009 11:04:16 PM)
quote: quote: If this is still your true position, I would ask why then you saw fit to interject yourself into the situation between Ialdabaoth and myself. He appears, at least on the surface, to be in direct contradiction to you. I didn't interject myself in anything, Loki. I commented on a public message board. You weren't having a private conversation. It was public, and I threw in my two cents. quote: Ok, so you're fine with my views on violent criminals. That's right. I recall that you're pro-crime as long as no one gets hurt. So what does it take to get you on board with 'draconian' sentences? How bad does someone have to fuck up before you advocate locking them up? We know from previous threads that stiffing a hard-working repair man just trying to make a living for $1,500 isn't enough. So what is? $2,000? $10,000? $100,000? At what point do we say "Ok, you're a career criminal and you're not doing society any favors...away you go to a place where you don't need money anymore."? You didn't address anything I said. How am I fine with your views on violent criminals? I don't believe in punishment. I believe in two reasons for incarceration.....rehabilitation or seperation from society. I don't believe in treating people harshly for their crimes. Like I said, go talk to a correctional officer one day. They have to deal with these people everyday. Priviliges like television, extra rec time, crafts programs, etc are ways of controlling inmates. It's not meant to lessen what they did. They can't leave where they are. They can't have women. They can't pop into a bar for a drink. They are cut off from society. The little amenities they are allowed are designed to control their behavior. It's simple, the better behaved you are, the more priviliges you're allowed. It's not meant to be coddling. It's simple inmate control. If you ever had taken a course in penology, you'd understand this. I've talked to correctional officers, they don't want to work in a supermax type prison. It's the most difficult type of people to deal with, and it cost a lot more. As far as when is enough....how exactly do these offenders make restitution while behind bars? We have ways of getting this money out of them. Incarceration should be the very last resort.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/11/2009 11:10:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth Okay... I think I understand how you think, I just can't wrap my mind around why you think that way. I'm going to assume that we still have enough of a common basis of language to communicate, if you're willing to work with me? I'd like to understand what makes you feel that way. I mean, what is it about "justice" (in the sense of vindictive punishment) that you feel equates to "love"? Not love. Caring. Something that shows you are upset that your loved one died. Let's try another and see where it goes, shall we? Ok, so your loved one isn't dead. You come home, though, and they are in the clutches of that same soul-less individual. He's not after your money, he's not after your plasma TV. He wants to watch you suffer. He wants to watch THEM suffer and for you to watch it happen. Do you let him? Do you try and stop him? There's only one way to stop him. Cops are 10 minutes away and your loved one will be slaughtered before your eyes in 60 seconds. There's only one way to stop him. What do you do? Do you allow him to succeed and then try and 'understand' him? Do you defend your loved one up to and including killing him first? Of course I'll try to defend people whom I know and can vouch for against the actions of someone who has shown every indication of being a net loss - that's rational. But if I do, I'll try and take them down quickly and cleanly. I'll try to subdue rather than wound, for example, and maim or kill only as a last resort. Now, keep in mind that "last resort" can be a pretty quick decision - if it's clear that it'd be incredibly dangerous to approach them, and I have an easy short with my AR-15, they're getting an AR-15 to the face without a blink. I'll feel horrible about it afterwards, but I'd feel more horrible doing nothing. Does this make sense? quote: Now that you're contemplating that. Let me ask this. Why is it different (assuming your answer changes)? Why would you stop him from killing, by killing him. But if he'd already done the deed, you don't seek to get justice? That's trivially easy to answer: Before the deed is done, my lover is still alive, and my actions could save them. After they've killed them, nothing I do can improve the situation. I act to make things better. How do you not understand this? quote: There are MANY cases of killers being so far gone that they enjoy jail. Take cop killers, for example. They are heralded as heroes in prison. It's a badge of fucking honor to those animals. The only class of criminal I've heard having a 'rough time' from other prisoners are those who prey on the young. Apart from that, your crime on the outside determines your status on the inside. And I've seen countless stories about someone in prison for murder or rape who ends up raping and murdering again while on the inside. Which is yet another reason why our justice system is fucked. We need to fix these people, not pen them up where they learn how to be worse thugs from each other. And the ones that can't be fixed, we need to put down, as gently and humanely as we can. quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth Also: I find it odd that you feel that compassion is an absence of emotion. I stay my hand out of love. When I see someone hurt someone else, I feel horrible - for both of them. The emotion I seem to be lacking is "righteous anger", but I seem to have enough "compassionate pity" to fill that gap. Or do some emotions not count? I don't feel compassion is the absence of emotion. But I would rather know that my loved ones cared for me as opposed to the man who just murdered me. I care for both. If my lover is gone, what more can I do for them? Yet this man before me is still alive; him I may be able to help. And if not? Then I have to think of the greater good, and put him down - but I have to do so humanely, or I risk being as bad as he is. quote: The bible-beaters love to throw around bible verses until you get to this subject. Because on this subject the verses are very clear. Eye for an eye. Don't give me this bullshit about leaving the world blind. Murderers kill. That is what they do. If you do nothing to stop that, then you are every bit as responsible as they are for their next victims. It isn't bullshit. And the Bible says many different things at different times, and the Bible is just one book. quote: Now let me take a moment to clear something up. I'm not gung-ho about taking a life. I talk a great game about it, but I've already pointed out in many previous posts (and my own personal beliefs) that I'm the type who prefers to make jokes, even dark jokes. Would I take a life in defence of my loved ones? Yep. I wouldn't hesitate for a second. Would I be happy-go-lucky afterward? Not likely. But you see, I'm prepared to live with that if it means justice is done or a crime is prevented. Because the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. And I refuse to do nothing in that instance. I won't apologize for having a dark sense of humor. The world is fucked and we have to find humor where we can or we go nuts. I'd rather we not have that humor at other peoples' expenses. The world is fucked and we shouldn't be trying to make it worse than it already is.

Loki45 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/11/2009 11:13:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou I didn't interject myself in anything, Loki. I commented on a public message board. You weren't having a private conversation. It was public, and I threw in my two cents. And yet your original response to me was that you "weren't talking to me." Ahh...but on a public message board, hmmm? quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou I don't believe in punishment......seperation from society. Sure sounds like punishment to me. quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou They can't leave where they are. Some don't want to. Their criminal 'enterprises' are just as easily run from behind bars. quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou As far as when is enough....how exactly do these offenders make restitution while behind bars? We have ways of getting this money out of them. Incarceration should be the very last resort. How does one make restitution at all? If they stole from someone to begin with, you honestly expect them to pay it back? If they had the lack of compassion for their victims enough to steal in the first place, why the hell would they be expected to 'make restitution' on their own?

Ialdabaoth -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/11/2009 11:16:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 And yet your original response to me was that you "weren't talking to me." Ahh...but on a public message board, hmmm? Oh, get a room, you two. :) Your foreplay was cute for a bit, but it's steaming up the thread.

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