Voodoo People ? (Full Version)

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JonnieBoy -> Voodoo People ? (7/6/2009 11:03:23 AM)

Ever studied/followed/used/experimented ?

I always thought it to be a positive doctrine, now it seems to be all "scary" and "mysterious" in popular non practitioner type thinking and the media.

I think voodoo is misunderstood. Whaddaya reckon ?

(Pass me the fresh blood and make it quick, it's not  the same  if it cools down too much [;)] )

[sm=evil.gif]

Pirate




subtee -> RE: Voodoo People ? (7/6/2009 11:07:10 AM)

It's obviously terrifying because what if someone accidentally put a hex or a spell or was stabbing pins in a little subtee because of mistaken identity and then

they died.




RCdc -> RE: Voodoo People ? (7/6/2009 11:13:38 AM)

Voodoo is a legitimate religion.  I agree it is totally misunderstood.  Like any religion, it has different sects and diversions.
 
the.dark.




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Voodoo People ? (7/6/2009 12:06:46 PM)

Voudoun is a legitimate religion. The word 'voudoun' means "god" in (at least) one of the West African dialects and it isn't actually -one- religion, but a collection, much like Protestantism, that revolve around the belief structures of the West African religions combined with some aspects of Christianity, Gnosticism, Hinduism, Native beliefs (Native Islander, Native American, etc.), and about a dozen more.

There are aspects of Voudoun that bother people, and I think that, even if they knew -why- such-and-such was being done, some folks would -still- be bothered by it, but I think that being able/willing to learn about why certain things happen in certain religions is valuable -- at least reactions come from a place of knowledge then, and not out of misunderstanding or ignorance.

DC




LadyEllen -> RE: Voodoo People ? (7/6/2009 1:39:19 PM)

Vivisection is wrong! But sacrificing kittens, terrified as they watch a series of other animals slaughtered before them, must be respected as a valid cultural expression.

Do I win ten pounds?

E




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Voodoo People ? (7/6/2009 4:07:29 PM)

quote:

Vivisection is wrong! But sacrificing kittens, terrified as they watch a series of other animals slaughtered before them, must be respected as a valid cultural expression.


And once again ignorance reigns on CM.

Yes, Voudoun may include animal sacrifices -- usually chickens, pigs, or goats -- FOOD ANIMALS. The animals are cared for better than most of the animals slaughtered every day to feed First World humans, and the ritual sacrifice of these animals is done -extremely- respectfully, in a way that cherishes every bit of the offering made, and in a manner that is quick, clean, efficient, and humane. Yes, they practice animal sacrifice -- but nothing is wasted. Even things like feathers from the chickens, bones, feet, and skin are made use of. Foods given to the Loa are not considered 'wasted' -- they are considered proper payment for the Loa's efforts on their behalf, and they believe that the spirit of that sacrificed animal is 'anointed', and it will live in luxury with the Loa.

Every religion in the world has a history of animal sacrifice, including Christianity. There was a REASON that Jesus Christ was called "The Lamb of God".

It pays not to get your information third-hand through the TV screen. (Mine came from actually -attending over a dozen ceremonies as a requirement for my coursework in comparative religions, and from having a life-mate whose family came from Haiti and were active in Haitian Vaudou.)

Here are some "realities" of Voudou:

Voudou is monotheistic. They believe in ONE GOD, though they consider him unreachable/untouchable. The Loa are not gods, but spirits. They may be spirits of ancestors, of places, of intense emotions (like love), of generative and destructive processes like agriculture, birth, or storms. They are divided into 'nations' and 'families', just like the human population they interact with. The Loa, being more than human, and less than God, walk the world between humanity and the Divine, and can, according to Voudou belief, directly affect the area that they're considered responsible for or intercede with Bondye (God) to help the human in need. Many of the Loa in Haiti are connected to one of the Roman Catholic saints, though the connection to Catholicism isn't universal.

The making of zombies is not related, technically, to Voudoun, nor are 'voodoo dolls'. Zombie-making is typically done by a bokor -- a sorcerer. Like Christian priests and sorcerers/warlocks (warlock means 'oathbreaker') in the middle ages, the bokor is the antithesis of the Voudou priest(ess), though xhe may have started -out- training on the same road as the priests, xhe stepped off the path and moved from a life-affirming practice to a death-promoting one. Voudou is an ecstatic religion, and is focused on the life-force. Zombie creation, in contrast, is typically a practice designed to -imitate- life in the -absence- of life, and so is considered to be focused on death energy, and is considered disgusting by those who practice Voudou.

Now for the 'voodoo dolls'. The practice of sympathetic magic using poppets is common in almost every religious path. The symbolism of the poppet represents a given person, and is "connected" to that person using intimate items like hair, fingernails, blood, or skin dust. According to my companion's Mambo (a priestess... priests are called Houngans), she uses poppets for healing, so that the Loa can find the person who needs their help more easily. She did tell me that sometimes, someone will ask for something bad to be done to someone, but that a good priest will find ways to heal ill feelings between people without promoting revenge, but even priests make bad judgments sometimes, so she won't say that poppets and other sympathetic tools are not used in bad ways sometimes.

DC




rfd1 -> RE: Voodoo People ? (7/6/2009 4:40:20 PM)

I don't call cutting up chickens a religion.

They leave their Goddamn shit all over the place.
Goats heads in the sewer, skinned dogs in the park, decaptiated cats at cross streets, pigeons, pigs, all kinds of barnyard animals in the city, snuffed for some African hocus pocus.
It is a health hazard.




ThatDaveGuy69 -> RE: Voodoo People ? (7/6/2009 4:50:23 PM)

But ritualistic canibalism is OK?
"This is the cup of my blood - drink from it"
"This is my body, eat from it" (or as I like to say: EAT IT! And I always wondered why I was kicked out of being an altar boy...)

Shields up, Mr Scott!

~Dave




thornhappy -> RE: Voodoo People ? (7/6/2009 6:14:51 PM)

 
quote:

ORIGINAL: rfd1

I don't call cutting up chickens a religion.

They leave their Goddamn shit all over the place.
Goats heads in the sewer, skinned dogs in the park, decaptiated cats at cross streets, pigeons, pigs, all kinds of barnyard animals in the city, snuffed for some African hocus pocus.
It is a health hazard.


[sm=dontfeedtrolls.gif]




LadyEllen -> RE: Voodoo People ? (7/7/2009 4:23:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

Vivisection is wrong! But sacrificing kittens, terrified as they watch a series of other animals slaughtered before them, must be respected as a valid cultural expression.


And once again ignorance reigns on CM.

Yes, Voudoun may include animal sacrifices -- usually chickens, pigs, or goats -- FOOD ANIMALS. The animals are cared for better than most of the animals slaughtered every day to feed First World humans, and the ritual sacrifice of these animals is done -extremely- respectfully, in a way that cherishes every bit of the offering made, and in a manner that is quick, clean, efficient, and humane. Yes, they practice animal sacrifice -- but nothing is wasted. Even things like feathers from the chickens, bones, feet, and skin are made use of. Foods given to the Loa are not considered 'wasted' -- they are considered proper payment for the Loa's efforts on their behalf, and they believe that the spirit of that sacrificed animal is 'anointed', and it will live in luxury with the Loa.



so, when the BBC came to town for Around The World In 80 Faiths last year, the ceremony they filmed was put on to scare the tourists presumably?

it was discussed all this; members of the congregation bring an animal for sacrifice, each according to his means. Some bring food animals and yes, they are killed and eaten - but the less wealthy bring what they can - kittens, puppies, whatever they can. These kinds of animals are not eaten but simply discarded. But they get to watch the food animals getting theirs before its their turn (presumably it makes sense to get the meat cooking or there is a hierarchy involved as to who gets to go first), and terrified, thrashing about to try to escape, they suffer no humane act.

sacrificing prey animals and eating their meat is one thing - slaughtering terrified kittens simply to discard the corpses is another thing altogether.

E




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Voodoo People ? (7/7/2009 5:13:41 AM)

Do you have a link to this sacrificing of a kitten or dog? I did a quick search and found nothing. Also, in my studies of theology, during my research of the various sects of voodoo, I never came across anything mentioning the slaughter of kittens and dogs. Most laws that I found concerning voodoo sacrifice had to adhere to existing health codes concerning animal sacrifice.




RCdc -> RE: Voodoo People ? (7/7/2009 10:23:33 AM)

It's pretty impossible to show  link via the UK as we have major issues with copyright on Youtube at the moment, so they have all been removed.  If you go on a shareware site, you should get it though, I found one but I havent been able to check it out myself to see if it works.  I don't like to download from sources I don't personally know because it messes with my art packages.
You can purchase the DVD itself and check episode three.  I know you are a like me Orion in that you enjoy different perspectives of different religions.
 
the.dark.




Arpig -> RE: Voodoo People ? (7/7/2009 10:59:07 AM)

The followers of Voodoo are basically ignorant and self deluded followers of an ancient and outdated superstition, but then again I feel that way about Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Anglicans, Baptist, etc., etc.




JonnieBoy -> RE: Voodoo People ? (7/7/2009 12:24:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

The followers of Voodoo are basically ignorant and self deluded followers of an ancient and outdated superstition, but then again I feel that way about Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Anglicans, Baptist, etc., etc.


I can agree with you on  all of the superstitions here except Voodoo, because I'm not yet well enough informed on it to feel able to judge yet. I'm not going to form my views based on the media propaganda ... fresh blood can be very nutritious if harvested well from suitable food animals.
Yes ... in parts of the world dog is perfectly acceptable food ... just as in others pig is not.

quote:

ORIGINAL:OrionTheWolf:
Do you have a link to this sacrificing of a kitten or dog? I did a quick search and found nothing. Also, in my studies of theology, during my research of the various sects of voodoo, I never came across anything mentioning the slaughter of kittens and dogs. Most laws that I found concerning voodoo sacrifice had to adhere to existing health codes concerning animal sacrifice.


I have never seen such a thing myself Orion, I have to say that I would be farkin' gobsmacked if UK tv were to show such a thing ... and if it WERE true I would be very surprised that it would not get the full attention of the animal crackers brigade over here, I've no doubt I have more to learn about this but I suspect strongly that during that process I will have a lot of uneducated myth to work through..

Pirate




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Voodoo People ? (7/7/2009 12:32:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Do you have a link to this sacrificing of a kitten or dog? I did a quick search and found nothing. Also, in my studies of theology, during my research of the various sects of voodoo, I never came across anything mentioning the slaughter of kittens and dogs. Most laws that I found concerning voodoo sacrifice had to adhere to existing health codes concerning animal sacrifice.


That was my understanding, as well, from time spent with practitioners and clergy. Even the poorest members of the community brought appropriate sacrifices (typically chickens), and food animals were required, as these weren't just random sacrifices, they were meant as a feast for the Loa... who are probably not any more fond of eating the neighbor's kitten than the next individual.

There are strict rules concerning how sacrifice is done, and for how the sacrificed animals are cared for -before- sacrifice, during, and after. I found it not that much different (aside from the types of animals) than the rules surrounding Kosher and Halal procedures. The biggest difference is the commonality of the acceptance of both blood and pork in Voudoun, where they are strictly controlled and forbidden in Kosher and Halal rituals.

DC






Vendaval -> RE: Voodoo People ? (7/7/2009 11:21:25 PM)

Fast Reply -

Dame Calla has given good basic information on the practices of Vodun here. And yes, it is largely misunderstood by people outside of the cultures where it is practiced.




GYPZYQUEEN -> RE: Voodoo People ? (7/8/2009 12:41:05 AM)

HELLO ALL AND OP:
 
I indeed  feel honored to have studied with several spirit path traditions in this life time...here on earth..perhaps due to being of 3 races..perhaps a soul agreement..who is to say..suffice to say since 9 I have been adopted in or taken under the wing of
8 spiritual cultural belief systems.
 
As I work on my book I realize that at the core...they are all the same.. all ONE.but that is another thread.
 
Voodoo..hoodoo..voudoun has been practiced by a wide variety of ppl regardless of ethnicity or religious affiliation.
 
Its attractivenss lies in the fact that it natural,non-dogmatic and practical.
 
Primary concerns are blessing the home and keeping the domestic environment free of intrusions.
Other concerns are gaining a life mate..health ..happiness..looking to the future..freeing self from unwanted control and guiding others.
 
Various hybrids of  African-based religions are now thriving in coastal Brazil..Dom Republic..and Cuba called Cabdonmle..Shango and Santeria..and in Louisiana and Haiti it is voudoun.
In the southern states we have hoodoo established in slave times
 
Voudoun healers apply waters..oils..herbals..cures..poultices..songs..rattle ritual and more..as a "Dr" would prescribe/
They also use water gazing..crystal gazing.. and lucid dreaming and reading the bones ( as I have been taught..ty)

 
Ancestral and natural spirits are invoked for healing and blessings by everyday folk
using this nature based healing tradition they acknowlege that the same spirit infused in us is also in nature.
Voudoun believes in building respectful relationship in nature and community..such as with plants.waters..earth ,fire and air
 
One calls to the LWA(god/desses) who represent dif aspects of self and lessons and powers around them..some lwa like to be fed..have a drink or a smoke..
This is seen in many tradtions cross culturally.
 
The animal sacrifice idea horrifies many and yet one cannot understand thousands of years of tradtiton
As a child on a farm in N Alberta..I watched horrified as chickens and turkeys had their heads cut off...and those at Thanksgiving tables have met the same fate.
 
IN the case of sacrifice ( and you DO NOT HAVE TO)  of animals these animals become part of a ritual of honoring and are eaten later.
 
 I could compare hunters I see each year here  who hunt to see death and animals eyes pop out and laugh it up with a beer OR our aborigianl teachings asking an animal to appear ..and sacrifice for the tribe then a thanks given thru an offering..
 
The sacred and the secular are intertwined in Voudoun  as one strives to live a  harmonious and balanced  life ever watchful of ones impact on those and earth around them.
 
Although there is no 3 fold law in voudoun Voudouisants recognize aggressive "magick" as a last resort,
 
Movies have done a great diservice to this natural and beautiful tradition with images of zombies slaves and horrible blood letting.
 
Just as in any spiritual tradition we have misuse of power..twisted off shoots with those appointing themselves as leaders  or those who practice a dark side to the tradition... so it is with voudoun.
 
Just as I do not judge or make assumptions about all Catholics or Wiccans or Charismatics by a few juiced up stories or a persoanlly bad experience I trust that this would be the case for many with examining voudoun. 
 
I would also add in the ceremony and ritual..healings..and cleansings I have been taught to do in each tradition that the one of the reason they WORK  is the mind...those who have been brought up since day 1 to believe a nasty spirit may cause chaos in the home or life will the also beleive that I as appointed "..........."...can get rid of it..heal it  etc.
That is not to say I have not seen these spirits or lower astral entities etc..it is simply one reason a team effort works.

 
If you are interested in more I am happy to answer on the other side.
 
www.vodou.org
www.spellmaker.com
www.sosyetedumarche.com
www.luckymojo.com
 
 
GQ
 




JonnieBoy -> RE: Voodoo People ? (7/8/2009 2:43:43 AM)

Thanks for that GQ, very informative indeed.

There's a few more than a few similarities in what you cover here and with some VERY old "ways" believed to be of Europe only (by Europeans ... unsurprisingly), which frankly I have never been convinced are so regionally specific.

I will take up your offer and  mail you.

So far, in my limited research, I have come across much demonisation of Voodoo and it gets in the way of understanding the spiritual aspects of this belief.

Pirate




LadyEllen -> RE: Voodoo People ? (7/13/2009 3:37:54 PM)

Pirate - I take it you have read "The Golden Bough" (JG Frazer)? This is a primer for understanding beliefs, though academic and a little dry its essential reading for getting to grips with pantheistic ideas. Also very good is "The Origin Of Pagan & Christian Beliefs" (Edward Carpenter) - very old but provides a clear line of sight from our common past in "primitive" beliefs through to "modern".

However, its pretty much impossible to understand this stuff until/unless you adopt the mindset, and thats a whole other thing; not that difficult if you can let go of the modern mindset, and actually pretty beneficial to realise.

E




slaveboyforyou -> RE: Voodoo People ? (7/13/2009 4:21:26 PM)

I just saw this on our local news:

quote:

LR Transgender Woman Dies after NJ Voodoo Ritual

Reported by: KARK 4 News
Monday, Jul 13, 2009 @02:00pm CST

An investigation is underway after a transgender woman from Little Rock died under bizarre circumstances in New Jersey over the weekend.

Authorities are waiting on toxicology tests that could take several weeks before an official cause of death is determined.

According to Philly.com, Lucille Hamilton, 21, a biological male who lived as a transgender woman, was found unresponsive after a voodoo cleansing ritual in Camden County.

The Camden County Prosecutor's Office says Hamilton's death did not appear to be suspicious and no charges have been filed.

Additional details from wpvi.com reveal that Hamilton traveled from Arkansas to participate in the ceremony.

The home where the ritual took place is reportedly owned by a man who claims to be a Haitian Voodoo priest.

Police say seven people participated in the ceremony Saturday night and then went to sleep, but Hamilton didn't wake up, and attempts to revive her failed.

Family members also say Hamilton used to be known as David, but had not undergone a sex change operation.

http://arkansasmatters.com/content/news/fulltext?cid=237702

They didn't give a lot of details, but it sounded like one of those 'I can't believe people are this fucking stupid' type of accidents.




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