quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamerdreaming

If my sub, even just a friend, were "not getting anything from our play", I would need to know right now, yesterday. Otherwise how would I fix it? If he told me clearly that the blindfold was really messing things up for him, I'd want to fix that right away. If he didn't tell me the scope of the problem...

that the two of you can begin to find a deeper level of trust, and a more fulfilling experience for both of you.

Really- what is going on here?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

People keep harping on that deeper level of trust stuff.  I am not in a relationship with him where I have to trust myself and him to be more than what I want now.  I am not a casual player, but I have been a risky recklesss one in my life.  Trust? For what to let someone tie me up?  I have let relative strangers do that in my life.  This is not my first rodeo.  I have played these games from the moment my virginity was removed. 
I like my friend.  I know that he knows I play on a different level and that he keeps wanting to move me into a more romantic sensual style.  But for me sex and romance are for relationships.  I am not looking for that.  That may be the real issue.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

People keep harping on that deeper level of trust stuff.  I am not in a relationship with him where I have to trust myself and him to be more than what I want now.  I am not a casual player, but I have been a risky recklesss one in my life.  Trust? For what to let someone tie me up?  I have let relative strangers do that in my life.  This is not my first rodeo.  I have played these games from the moment my virginity was removed. 
I like my friend.  I know that he knows I play on a different level and that he keeps wanting to move me into a more romantic sensual style.  But for me sex and romance are for relationships.  I am not looking for that.  That may be the real issue.
Kyst

I alluded to this in my first post and will now say it more clearly.  It's my belief that you are indeed talking about the real issue underneath all of this. 

You have a different style of play than your friend.  You state that he has always been aware of this.  You state that your friend wants to play (Every time?  Once for every 3 or 4 or ? many times he plays your way?  A mix of the two...your way AND his when you play?) in a more romantic, sensuous way than you do but that you consider sex and romance for relationships.  Yet, you also state that just as he was aware of YOUR style of play, you were aware of this inclination/want/need on his part?  Why then are you playing with him?  It seems...to be frank...rather selfish on your part because you are getting your needs met:  you are getting the physical contact with someone else that you need and those maso needs, that while you could do the physical part yourself are still nicer when delivered by a strong partner.  You are experiencing his control in a play situation.  But are all of his needs being met?  Is it, as I asked earlier, an equitable situation? 

If it was never intended to be...if it started out with him knowing that he was never going to be able to play with you in the manner he likes most and he agreed to that, then there are no worries.  You remind him of that and he either accepts it or he does not.  On the other hand, I can't help but wonder if he didn't believe...and if you didn't give some indication, at least on a non-overt plane... that the longer you two knew each other---the more trust that was built---then the more equitable the play would become.   Of course, it could also be that despite his initial agreement, he is finding that playing by all YOUR rules is beginning to be a bit constrained for him.  Yes, he may be getting pleasure of a sort but it is unfulfilled pleasure.  He may be of the sadistic bent described in the dictionary...bringing pain and sensation to you is arousing him sexually but that arena is being left unfulfilled for him because your needs as a maso and as a submissive are being fulfilled in the ways you want and, because you want sex and romance relegated to a "serious" relationship, which are enough for you.  They may no longer be enough for him. 

As I stated in my earlier post and will state now, the time may have come when it can no longer be all your way and you have some decisions to make.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I have decided I will bring this up at our next lunch date.  I really do require eye contact. 
Kyst

YAY! You go, girl! 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

No, as I said he is very aware of what I feel.  He has been my friend for a long time. In fact way back when I did my stint of celibacy he is the one that made coming back into the regular world doable.  We had a brief liasson for a month or so but I was never his only partner and I am still not his only partner.  As a monogamous person this would not have worked for me over time.
I don't concern myself about his sexual needs because he has told me he either takes care of business later when he brings up the memory, or has fun with other women.  He has told me this and I have no reason to disbelieve him.
We play because.. lol well I don't know why actually.  I know him.  I trust he won't want more than I can give. And dang it.. this is northern Ca.. you might be amazed at how many males here are submissives or bottoms.  I have run a few groups up here and the ratio of dominant males is very low.
I wouldn't call playing with him selfish on my part as I have yet to reach an level of satisfaction that would even drive me to masturbate later on the memory.  Getting my needs met so far are only the need to force myself to get back in the game, they have nothing to do with getting my maso stroked.  I am more of a maso than he is a sadist. 
I am also quite positive that he isn't wanting or needing me as a girlfriend.  He has more than enough of those!  Please don't take that to mean that maybe why I am tying his hands on the sensual romantic bdsm, as my head isn't into having anyone as a romantic partner right now.
As he keeps inquiring when we can play again I assume his needs are being met, even though it may not be to the degree many men would require.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

People keep harping on that deeper level of trust stuff.  I am not in a relationship with him where I have to trust myself and him to be more than what I want now.  I am not a casual player, but I have been a risky recklesss one in my life.  Trust? For what to let someone tie me up?  I have let relative strangers do that in my life.  This is not my first rodeo.  I have played these games from the moment my virginity was removed. 
I like my friend.  I know that he knows I play on a different level and that he keeps wanting to move me into a more romantic sensual style.  But for me sex and romance are for relationships.  I am not looking for that.  That may be the real issue.
Kyst

I alluded to this in my first post and will now say it more clearly.  It's my belief that you are indeed talking about the real issue underneath all of this. 

You have a different style of play than your friend.  You state that he has always been aware of this.  You state that your friend wants to play (Every time?  Once for every 3 or 4 or ? many times he plays your way?  A mix of the two...your way AND his when you play?) in a more romantic, sensuous way than you do but that you consider sex and romance for relationships.  Yet, you also state that just as he was aware of YOUR style of play, you were aware of this inclination/want/need on his part?  Why then are you playing with him?  It seems...to be frank...rather selfish on your part because you are getting your needs met:  you are getting the physical contact with someone else that you need and those maso needs, that while you could do the physical part yourself are still nicer when delivered by a strong partner.  You are experiencing his control in a play situation.  But are all of his needs being met?  Is it, as I asked earlier, an equitable situation? 

If it was never intended to be...if it started out with him knowing that he was never going to be able to play with you in the manner he likes most and he agreed to that, then there are no worries.  You remind him of that and he either accepts it or he does not.  On the other hand, I can't help but wonder if he didn't believe...and if you didn't give some indication, at least on a non-overt plane... that the longer you two knew each other---the more trust that was built---then the more equitable the play would become.   Of course, it could also be that despite his initial agreement, he is finding that playing by all YOUR rules is beginning to be a bit constrained for him.  Yes, he may be getting pleasure of a sort but it is unfulfilled pleasure.  He may be of the sadistic bent described in the dictionary...bringing pain and sensation to you is arousing him sexually but that arena is being left unfulfilled for him because your needs as a maso and as a submissive are being fulfilled in the ways you want and, because you want sex and romance relegated to a "serious" relationship, which are enough for you.  They may no longer be enough for him. 

As I stated in my earlier post and will state now, the time may have come when it can no longer be all your way and you have some decisions to make.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant 
What is the real issue?
1.  it may be a case of him wanting to play in a sexual, sensual, romantic manner (something he likes/needs) along with playing to your likes and wants and needs.

He is a romantic sexual top type.  I knew that going in.  I have watched him top others at various times.  He has also known I am a masochist and that I am someone used to hard play.  Still.. he wants to play with me, and I enjoy his company enough to feel ok as long as he is ok with what we have.

2.  The fact that he is wanting to change the rules of what was agreed to and include more of this sensual, sexual, romantic play that he likes instead of just abiding by the original agreement?  In that case, again you two do need to have a sitdown and get it clear as to whether or not he means for the play to lead to something more serious like a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship or for it just to become a new part of play and then discuss whether or not you want to go that way.

This will never lead to boyfriend/girlfriend and neither of us has that in mind.  He likes many women.  I am monogamous.  He has many partners.  I have him at the moment.

3.  The fact that you feel, as evidenced below by your words, that the situation right now IS equitable and he is trying to upset the balance?  He may not see it as equitable any longer and again, this is a good reason for a sitdown.

I don't think he is trying to upset the balance at all.  He started the way he intended to go on.  He is sensual, whereas I reserve that for relationships.  I do plan to talk to him about the play because it will come up again and I really do require the eye contact if I cannot have the hard play.