RE: Feminism bad for society?

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RCdc -> RE: Feminism bad for society? (7/28/2009 2:57:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 I think you misunderstood my point. You work. My point was about women who don't and how they are often accused of "setting back the feminist movement' by other women. Um, Loki, you've forgotten to put a link to substantiate this allegation. Purely an oversight, I'm sure. I'm certain you wouldn't make a claim like this without the data to back it up. I can be data - if I count. As a stay at home whilst my children were young and a married one, I was told I was setting women back years - by women. In one case, a centuary. That because I was a stay at home wife, whom loved to cook and clean and wash, that there must be something wrong with me - by women. It happens far more often than people may like to admit. the.dark.

Apocalypso -> RE: Feminism bad for society? (7/28/2009 2:58:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 I got bullied on the playground as a kid. I don't recall it having anything to do with whether or not my parents were divorced. Somehow in my mind "you're funny lookin' and a geek" doesn't translate into "you're parents should be married!" Maybe it does for you, I don't know. It's a weird connection to make though, don't you think? Not the connection I'm making. I'll break it down. The demonisation of single mothers also demonises single parent families. This means children from single mother families have been demonised. If a child has been demonised by society as a whole, that's going to affect their interaction with their peers. Therefore, by supporting the first of those, which you've said you do, you automatically will be supporting the other points, regardless of your intentions.

Apocalypso -> RE: Feminism bad for society? (7/28/2009 3:04:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark I can be data - if I count. As a stay at home whilst my children were young and a married one, I was told I was setting women back years - by women. In one case, a centuary. That because I was a stay at home wife, whom loved to cook and clean and wash, that there must be something wrong with me - by women. It happens far more often than people may like to admit. the.dark. Thanks dark. That's obviously appalling. Was that linked to feminism in your experience? That's the other main query I have here. Whether there's actually a link between the two issues. I'm not saying there definitely isn't. I could possibly see a few strands of feminism doing this, although not most. But because it's such a serious issue I think it needs to be backed up with evidence. (Including personal experience like yours. In some ways, I think that's the most important forms of evidence, because it's always a primary source).

RCdc -> RE: Feminism bad for society? (7/28/2009 3:28:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso Thanks dark. That's obviously appalling. Was that linked to feminism in your experience? That's the other main query I have here. Whether there's actually a link between the two issues. I'm not saying there definitely isn't. I could possibly see a few strands of feminism doing this, although not most. But because it's such a serious issue I think it needs to be backed up with evidence. (Including personal experience like yours. In some ways, I think that's the most important forms of evidence, because it's always a primary source). You are welcome A. I have made a link, yes. Hence, I am not cool with feminists and I am not cool with the concept either. I get what they are trying to achieve, but I see it at a cost of everyone else, not just men. Know what it feels like to be told that ironing just isn't as fullfilling as bringing home pay? Or that I am fooling myself to believe that my partner even appriciates me? Or to have my educational and personal abilities questioned? That all pretty much sucks. People get blinkered when they choose a side. Even when they believe that they are choosing a side that they are convinced needs support. the.dark.

LillyoftheVally -> RE: Feminism bad for society? (7/28/2009 4:38:08 PM)
Me and the beautiful darkness have discussed this before, feminism (for me) or well really humanism (though not used in this context) is about the right to CHOOSE a woman shouldnt be forced into a housewife role but if she wants to then good for her, same for men. I spent my teenage years being raised in a single parent family, with my dad, he did a fantastic job if I do say so myself. People should be treated as people, have the ability to do and be what they are best at rather than being told that the fact that they have a dick or vagina means they have to be a certain thing. I don't give a toss if someone works or stays at home, what I find admirable are people who do what works for them!

Loki45 -> RE: Feminism bad for society? (7/28/2009 6:05:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso As an aside, if you'll indulge me in my love for mythology, what inspired your choice of username? I'm just intrigued to why you would identify with quite such a transgressive god as Loki. I haven't really got the impression that you support transgression in this thread. I just noticed this question. My choice for the nick was an incorrect assumption of who Loki was. You see I know (now) both about the Loki that inspired my name and about the one I "thought" inspired it. I "thought" I was basing it on the Greek God Loki. However, I was actually basing it on the Marvel comics-interpretation of the Greek God. In the "Thor" comics, they call Loki the "Greek God of Mischief." That is where I got the idea for my name, as I LOVE to discuss, debate, conversate and argue. I can take any side to an argument, if only to highlight the outlandishly stupid position of others. I do of course have my own views. However, being a middle-road walker politically speaking gives me ample opportunity to argue with the fanatics of each 'side' when I see them heading for 'ridiculous land.' Naturally, in an argument, you fight fire with fire. So if I see someone on the left going way overboard, I go way right. If I see someone on the right going overboard, I go way left. This is usually only done to make a point (or ridicule their outlandishness). I'd be happy to specify about transgression....if you clarify what you mean. Though I think I may have covered it by revealing me original error in my namesake's origins.

Loki45 -> RE: Feminism bad for society? (7/28/2009 6:09:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso Not the connection I'm making. I'll break it down. The demonisation of single mothers also demonises single parent families. This means children from single mother families have been demonised. If a child has been demonised by society as a whole, that's going to affect their interaction with their peers. Therefore, by supporting the first of those, which you've said you do, you automatically will be supporting the other points, regardless of your intentions. Then is sounds as if that's exactly the connection you're making. The two issues are, of course, separate. I can't coddle a teen mother who knew the risks because her young one 'might' be bullied by someone on the playground. That's never a good basis for making a choice. I can hold my views on families and societies all day long. If that ends up with more bully-fodder, then the young one will learn to toughen up the same as I did. I believe you can firmly place me NOT in the group of people crying over bullying because I, like many, was bullied growing up. That is, until my growth spurt. Apparently, you throw one guy off the bleachers in your school, and no one wants to bully you anymore. No, the bully question can easily be summed up as kids will do what they do until you make them stop. If they don't pick on another for their family, it will be their clothes, or their glasses or the way they're smaller than others. I can't base my views on single-parenting (excluding divorce situations) on what may or may not happen on the school yard.

Loki45 -> RE: Feminism bad for society? (7/28/2009 6:12:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark I have made a link, yes. Hence, I am not cool with feminists and I am not cool with the concept either. I get what they are trying to achieve, but I see it at a cost of everyone else, not just men. Know what it feels like to be told that ironing just isn't as fullfilling as bringing home pay? Or that I am fooling myself to believe that my partner even appriciates me? Or to have my educational and personal abilities questioned? That all pretty much sucks. People get blinkered when they choose a side. Even when they believe that they are choosing a side that they are convinced needs support. This is precisely why I agreed with another poster (very early in the thread) that the "idea" of feminism is fine and dandy. It's those who practice it -- fanatically as it were -- that become the problem.

Apocalypso -> RE: Feminism bad for society? (7/28/2009 6:37:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 I'd be happy to specify about transgression....if you clarify what you mean. Though I think I may have covered it by revealing me original error in my namesake's origins. It's fine, thanks for your reply. I understand how you came up with it (Mostly I was just interested. I have a friend who worships Loki). quote: I can't base my views on single-parenting (excluding divorce situations) on what may or may not happen on the school yard. But you're not just talking about your views, you're also arguing for society to reflect them. When talking about social policy, surely we need to look at all potential effects? If society is talking about legalising drugs, should we base our decision entirely on health issues or should we also look at the effects on crime. Let's try a hypothetical example. Let's say divorce was as frowned upon as unmarried single parents. Let's assume that there are headlines in the papers attacking divorcees. Let's pretend there are politicans describing divorcees as "lazy". That people are calling them "scroungers". What do you think the effects of that would be? Do you think it would just demonise those divorcees who got divorced for 'irresponsible' reasons or all of them? Do you think it would just affect the parents or do you think it would also have an effect on the children? Do you think it would lead to an increase in bullying of the children of divorcees in the playground?

Loki45 -> RE: Feminism bad for society? (7/28/2009 6:52:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso But you're not just talking about your views, you're also arguing for society to reflect them. When talking about social policy, surely we need to look at all potential effects? If society is talking about legalising drugs, should we base our decision entirely on health issues or should we also look at the effects on crime. .... What do you think the effects of that would be? Do you think it would just demonise those divorcees who got divorced for 'irresponsible' reasons or all of them? Do you think it would just affect the parents or do you think it would also have an effect on the children? Do you think it would lead to an increase in bullying of the children of divorcees in the playground? There's nothing wrong with looking at all of the effects, but you can't use any one effect as a basis for decision. You can't stop and say "Ok, we can't have single mothers (or fathers) looked down upon because their kids would get bullied." Instead, you can ask "Will ceasing a negative societal view on single mothers prevent kids from being bullied?" And the answer is "no." Kids bully kids because that's what kids do. If it's not for one reason, it will be for another. I was not bullied for any reason other than the bullies thought they could get away with it and I wasn't in "their crowd." They continued to find reasons to bully me until I stood up for myself. The flip side of the coin, since we're talking about the effects on the young ones, is what happens to those young ones when we as a society send the message that caring for a toddler in between study hall and geometry class is accepable? What happens to society then? Then answer is already being shown to us more and more every day. Back in the 'old days' teen mothers were sent to a convent....or an out-of-state relative's house, etc. It was almost unheard of to be a pregnant teen and it certainly wasn't talked about except in hushed whispers. Now we have 'pregnancy pacts,' scores of teen parents having to decide 'what to do.' Evidently, even society's negative view on early or single parenting hasn't done much damage, considering how rampant it is.

Apocalypso -> RE: Feminism bad for society? (7/28/2009 7:00:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark You are welcome A. I have made a link, yes. Hence, I am not cool with feminists and I am not cool with the concept either. I get what they are trying to achieve, but I see it at a cost of everyone else, not just men. What would you see as what they're trying to achieve? I'd see "feminism" as more of an umbrella term, with various movements and goals as opposed to a single ideology. And from my personal perspective, I'd see certain of those components as working to my benefit, as opposed to my cost. In particular, those who want roles to be a matter of choice rather than gender. I dislike constraints on my personal freedom, as I'm sure you know. quote: Know what it feels like to be told that ironing just isn't as fullfilling as bringing home pay? Or that I am fooling myself to believe that my partner even appriciates me? Or to have my educational and personal abilities questioned? That all pretty much sucks. Again, that's completely understandable. And quite honestly, the only one I can say "yes" to is the last question. Kids from my area don't go to university or even do A-levels. Or get jobs in many cases, sadly. And then there's the 'compliment' of having it assumed that I'm not working class because I'm good with words. But none of that is news to you. I suspect you're one of a handful of people on here where I run a real risk of losing a game of 'prolier than thou', so I think I shall avoid playing in the first place. [;)] But I completely accept that you've met some really vile people, some of who were feminists. But I suspect those people would have been vile people if they weren't feminists. quote: People get blinkered when they choose a side. Even when they believe that they are choosing a side that they are convinced needs support. Burn the flags, including the black ones! One of my favourite slogans. But there's an option between refusing to choose a side and giving unconditional support. Case by case, issue by issue, individual by individual. Come together where you agree. Don't bother when you don't care. Fight your former allies when you believe that's right.

Apocalypso -> RE: Feminism bad for society? (7/28/2009 7:16:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 There's nothing wrong with looking at all of the effects, but you can't use any one effect as a basis for decision. You can't stop and say "Ok, we can't have single mothers (or fathers) looked down upon because their kids would get bullied." Instead, you can ask "Will ceasing a negative societal view on single mothers prevent kids from being bullied?" Surely you should ask "does causing a negative social view on single mothers have benefits that outweigh the potential hazards"? It strikes me as the wrong approach to do something because it 'feels right' to you, as opposed to working out what effect it's going to have. quote: And the answer is "no." Kids bully kids because that's what kids do. If it's not for one reason, it will be for another. I was not bullied for any reason other than the bullies thought they could get away with it and I wasn't in "their crowd." They continued to find reasons to bully me until I stood up for myself. There's an important difference here. That ended when you got home. You didn't have adult society also telling you the same thing. quote: The flip side of the coin, since we're talking about the effects on the young ones, is what happens to those young ones when we as a society send the message that caring for a toddler in between study hall and geometry class is accepable? What happens to society then? Demonisation isn't the answer. Education is. Not just sex education. But also how difficult parenthood actually is, especially at that age. How it will severely damage your social life. Don't lie. Don't exaggarate. Merely tell the truth. quote: Then answer is already being shown to us more and more every day. Back in the 'old days' teen mothers were sent to a convent....or an out-of-state relative's house, etc. It was almost unheard of to be a pregnant teen and it certainly wasn't talked about except in hushed whispers. And a far greater number of babies were killed as newborns. And far more women died because of illegal abortions. I've just noticed something as well. Not once have you mentioned the fathers in this. Why do you think it is more important to punish those looking after their children? quote: Now we have 'pregnancy pacts,' scores of teen parents having to decide 'what to do.' Evidently, even society's negative view on early or single parenting hasn't done much damage, considering how rampant it is. So, if you accept it hasn't done much damage, why not try something new. Because it's notable that this problem is higher in those countries which take the demonisation tack. Amsterdam's rate of teenage pregnancies is much lower. Which is telling, because they have a very liberal attitude to sex. You want to lower the teenage pregnancy rate dramatically? I'll tell you exactly how you could do it, though some of these would be very controversial. Sex education from a young age. Not just the mechanics. Feelings and emotions and consequences. And harm reduction. Absintance only education has failed and that's been shown again and again. And while you can't outlaw stuff people do privately, schools should not provide facilities for "purity balls". No getout clause for the above. Parents cannot withdraw their children from sex education classes. Free contraception for teenagers on request. Without telling their parents, although do encourage them to do so. A full time counsellor in every school, no matter how small. Abortion and the morning after pill on demand.

Loki45 -> RE: Feminism bad for society? (7/28/2009 8:01:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso There's an important difference here. That ended when you got home. You didn't have adult society also telling you the same thing. I don't recall having adult society tell me anything. My mom's marital status was never brought up by my teachers, and I was too young to care what was on the nightly news. If it didn't exist on the videogame screen, I didn't know or want to know about it. quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso Demonisation isn't the answer. Education is. Not just sex education. But also how difficult parenthood actually is, especially at that age. How it will severely damage your social life. Don't lie. Don't exaggarate. Merely tell the truth. I think there's confusion here. What do you call demonization? The things I refer to are the harsh-education that is given. So-called reality shows where the teens are given screaming children to watch after......the programs that try to educate teens (to little effect) on the consequences of their actions. I haven't seen or heard anything that sounds like what you might call demonizing since the 50's (a time during which I was not around). quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso And a far greater number of babies were killed as newborns. And far more women died because of illegal abortions. I've just noticed something as well. Not once have you mentioned the fathers in this. Why do you think it is more important to punish those looking after their children? You misunderstand. I don't seek to punish anyone. I simply don't condone the choice to bring a child into this world that you are not fully prepared to care for. Being one who has a growing, ferocious dislike of my so-called father, I don't condone the ones who cut-and-run either. They are, of course, just as much at fault. However, as the saying goes, it takes two to tango. The guy didn't impregnate the thin air. There was a girl there, more than willing to play her part. The difference between the father and mother, is the mother alone makes the choice on whether that child enters this world and to which parents. As I have heard many women say.....men are not to impose their beliefs onto a woman who is carrying their child. The father can say up, down, left and right that he's not ready to be a father. It makes no difference or impact on what that woman chooses to do with that knowledge. It takes two peeople to become pregnant, but only one decides what happens next. Now I'm all for calling the guy a coward when he doesn't man up to his responsibilities.....because he helped make the choice that led to the pregnancy. However, in that circumstance, he made one bad choice, the mother has the capacity to make two -- the sex that led to the pregnancy and the choice to keep a child she cannot raise alone. Because I feel that keeping a child when you know you can't afford to give it even the most basic of necessities is wrong. But there is an important distinction I feel I need to make here. Lest I be painted as a hater of all single parents. I draw a vast distinction between a woman who tried to make a family with her husband, only to be given the shaft; and those who stupidly get pregnant on their own and, after hearing the 'father's' response decide "I don't need no man, I'll raise this baby on my own." I think that's a very important distinction to make -- (despite it being an over-simplified grouping). Because in the former circumstance, the woman does not plan to be single. She merely can't stand living with the one she used to love. I get that, I winessed that. But I take issue with the latter group because of the phrasing they use -- "I'll raise this baby on my own." No, they won't. They can't. If you have to work because you're single......where's the kid? If you're dumping the kid off with a sitter 8 to 10 hours a day while you work, then the sitter is spending more of the child's awake life with them than you are. Some are lucky to have parents to help out. But again, the parents are raising the child, not the mother. To raise the child, YOU must RAISE the child, not pay others to do it for you. As I already pointed out, I realize my two 'groups' were an over-simplification. That's mostly for brevity. I can't possibly cover all contingencies so I picked the two most common ones. quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso So, if you accept it hasn't done much damage, why not try something new. Because it's notable that this problem is higher in those countries which take the demonisation tack. Amsterdam's rate of teenage pregnancies is much lower. Which is telling, because they have a very liberal attitude to sex. You want to lower the teenage pregnancy rate dramatically? I'll tell you exactly how you could do it, though some of these would be very controversial. Sex education from a young age. Not just the mechanics. Feelings and emotions and consequences. And harm reduction. Absintance only education has failed and that's been shown again and again. And while you can't outlaw stuff people do privately, schools should not provide facilities for "purity balls". No getout clause for the above. Parents cannot withdraw their children from sex education classes. Free contraception for teenagers on request. Without telling their parents, although do encourage them to do so. A full time counsellor in every school, no matter how small. Abortion and the morning after pill on demand. I'm all for all of these. But that's why I'm a middle-road type of person. I'm not going to be the one that says "oh you're encouraging more to have sex" because I know that's bullshit. Now if you'll excuse me, I'll just step over here behind my trusty flame-shield.... [sm=wall.gif]

Lostkitten3 -> RE: Feminism bad for society? (7/28/2009 8:22:38 PM)
This is very enlightened of you Apocolypso: "Sex education from a young age. Not just the mechanics. Feelings and emotions and consequences. And harm reduction. Absintance only education has failed and that's been shown again and again. And while you can't outlaw stuff people do privately, schools should not provide facilities for "purity balls". No getout clause for the above. Parents cannot withdraw their children from sex education classes. Free contraception for teenagers on request. Without telling their parents, although do encourage them to do so. A full time counsellor in every school, no matter how small. Abortion and the morning after pill on demand. " I have been a stay at home Mom up until this past year. I tried to work some when one of my kids was small, but he couldn't handle all day Daycare. He lost his mind. It is work for little ones to have to get along with other kids all day. It isn't just playing, as so many seem to think. I have had very few friends who stay at home with whom to have lunch with. Most women in my town work. Most of the Moms I grew up around worked. Staying home is a novelty only my grandmother encouraged. BTW, I don't encourage teen pregnancy, but I don't condemn it either. For centuries children have been raised by a group of family. It is only since the industrial revolution that we have nuclear families, where one woman and one man are responsible for everything. I think that alone has made life more challenging. If a teen gets pregnant, the grandparents should step up. After al, it is their fault condoms weren't provided. And to those of you who think my kids were accidents....quite the opposite. I was educated by my gynecologist that the best time to have kids is in your twenties, because after 30 the risk of birth defects goes up exponentially, so that after 40 it is almost guaranteed (see Sarah Palin if you don't know what a birth defect is.) I had my first child at 24 because I wanted her. I have always enjoyed kids. And after the divorce, I was lucky enough to have enough child support and alimony to raise my daughter and son without working. I have found children with a stay at home caring loving parent are happier and smarter. And I have been picked on repeatedly by many single, nonreproductive men and women because of my choices. Because I am single. And somehow miraculously, once I get married, I am treated as a whole individual. Somehow, choosing to raise the kids I made is seen as irresponsible. Duh. That is the point of feminism. I do not need a man to be a whole respectable person. I am a very good intelligent person. I deserve to not be punished for having kids and working my ass off to raise them, alone. I don't see any married women or men on here needing to defend themselves. Picking on single Moms is a red flag. Ah yes, and there is no correlation between teenage Moms and criminals. Teenage moms don't raise criminals. No documentation. Most women don't beg to not use a condom, a few do, most don't. That is men who do that. It makes no difference to most women, in my experience. So saying it takes two to tango, is a little skewed. And you reference having a kid as if it's like buying a car. Do you have the money and ability to maintain the car? These are sentient beings we are talking about. And most women, feel that when they are pregnant. People, not a tumor. In Denmark, a woman gets to stay home with her child for 2 years (even teens.) Can even have an apartment paid for and bills. Because a loved child that is attended to, and educated is far less likely to grow up to be a criminal. And the first 5 years are critical to their personality. Their teenage pregnancy rate is far lower than ours, and they are helping them with their CHOICE to have a kid. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_tee_pre_percap-health-teenage-pregnancy-per-capita P.s. Most teenagers have kids because they want someone to love them unconditionally. What does that say about their parents?

Loki45 -> RE: Feminism bad for society? (7/28/2009 9:19:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lostkitten3 Most women don't beg to not use a condom, a few do, most don't. That is men who do that. It makes no difference to most women, in my experience. And in my experience, I have met women who flat-out refuse to allow their lovers to use condoms, for a variety of reasons. quote: ORIGINAL: Lostkitten3 Do you have the money and ability to maintain the car? If you don't, the only one you're hurting is yourself and your ability to get around. Try that with another life and you can cause irreparable harm to that life.

Lostkitten3 -> RE: Feminism bad for society? (7/28/2009 9:32:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: Lostkitten3 Most women don't beg to not use a condom, a few do, most don't. That is men who do that. It makes no difference to most women, in my experience. And in my experience, I have met women who flat-out refuse to allow their lovers to use condoms, for a variety of reasons. To which I am sure you said "hell no." And gave up on having sex that night. Men get to be responsible for creating life and leaving women to raise them. quote: ORIGINAL: Lostkitten3 Do you have the money and ability to maintain the car? If you don't, the only one you're hurting is yourself and your ability to get around. Try that with another life and you can cause irreparable harm to that life. Well, you can't guarantee that they are hurting anyone. SOme do, some don't. You can't demonize all single Moms just because some don't care for and love their baby. The men that fathered them SHOULD be providing for them, and the State SHOULD be providing them with health care. If a man doesn't want to, he can keep his dick out, or just eat her instead. I'm sure you could think of a few other things. It's still a baby, not a car. And saying single women should just get rid of it, without providing them the emotional support, and monetary support, is naive. Expecting them to do so, for convenience, is naive.

Loki45 -> RE: Feminism bad for society? (7/28/2009 10:41:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lostkitten3 To which I am sure you said "hell no." And gave up on having sex that night. Men get to be responsible for creating life and leaving women to raise them. Absolutely. I have had one or two instances where I did have un-protected sex. But in those one or two instances, it was either with a woman who already knew she could no longer have kids, or with one who the next day took the appropriate precautions to ensure that she did not. Would I ever take the chance again? Nope, hell no. Hell, with my level of OCD, I have ample reason not to take the risk. quote: ORIGINAL: Lostkitten3 Well, you can't guarantee that they are hurting anyone. And you can't guarantee they aren't, either. The fact is, the risk is greater. quote: ORIGINAL: Lostkitten3 and the State SHOULD be providing them with health care. This is the most laughable statement I've seen you make and it's exactly why I take issue with the 'chosen' single mothers. The notion that the state, and by proxy the taxpayers (ie me) should care for her kids because she can't afford to pisses me off. Why should my tax dollars go to help children when I have made the concious choice to have none? It goes back to what I said before, if you cannot raise one, don't have one. If you cannot afford one, don't make me pay tax dollars to help you. quote: ORIGINAL: Lostkitten3 If a man doesn't want to, he can keep his dick out, No argument here. But as I said, it takes two to make that error. If she didn't want his dick in, she should slam those legs shut. Or as "Leon" says: "Whip out everything you got and do it in the butt."

Lostkitten3 -> RE: Feminism bad for society? (7/28/2009 10:58:04 PM)
Laugh all you want, but you are paying for all the old people's social security, and the children's education, and the roads you don't use, and the parks you don't visit. To say you shouldn't have to pay for anyone but yourself and your needs is too laughable.

Loki45 -> RE: Feminism bad for society? (7/28/2009 11:24:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lostkitten3 Laugh all you want, but you are paying for all the old people's social security, and the children's education, and the roads you don't use, and the parks you don't visit. To say you shouldn't have to pay for anyone but yourself and your needs is too laughable. I never said that at all. I'm well aware of what I do and don't pay for. But that doesn't mean I have to like the notion that some people think that my tax dollars should support their kids when they couldn't afford to raise them on their own.

Apocalypso -> RE: Feminism bad for society? (7/28/2009 11:28:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lostkitten3 Most women don't beg to not use a condom, a few do, most don't. That is men who do that. It makes no difference to most women, in my experience. So saying it takes two to tango, is a little skewed. To be fair, I have one ex who refused pointblank to use condoms. Although her argument was that she was allergic to latex and didn't consider dying safe sex. Which I think is a strong case. That's obviously a special circumstance. I can honestly say though, that my personal experience suggests something different to yours. Begging is way overstating it, but I've had a sizeable number of women who have told me they don't enjoy sex as much with condoms. However, the ones I was sexually involved with at the time (the minority) were both conversations within an established relationship. And a clothed conversation, rather then a prelude to sex. And the others were all platonic friendships. So I think it's likely that for many of them this wouldn't have meant they didn't use them. But yeah, this one isn't complicated for me. Man or woman, if you don't want to use condoms for penetrative sex, you need to be in a relationship that is settled enough for communication and negotiation to take place and risks minimised. If you don't want to be or can't find a relationship and are having casual sex, if you don't want to use condoms, then there are some perfectly enjoyable activities that carry far less of a risk without them. If you are still only capable of seeing penetrative sex as 'real' sex, you need to get out more. And, I have to say, if the argument is "I want casual penetrative sex, without condoms", my empathy is somewhat drained by this point. But where I disagree with you is that, actually, I do think that applies equally to both. When talking about responsible adults, saying no is as much as a responsibility as saying yes. Even if they beg. I would have little truck with "he begged me to inject heroin before having sex with him" as an argument. (For obvious reasons, I am not talking about things like established TPE relationships here). I think the "she begged me" argument, specifically, touches on a vital set of issues however. Because it feeds into some of the most dangerous, pervasive myths around. And one's that need killing. Repeatedly. Namely: Real men want sex all the time with anybody available. (A more subtle version of that merely claims it's with anyone they're physically attracted to, regardless of anything else). Men who are aroused lose the ability to refuse sex or even think properly, therefore they are less able to control their actions. (This includes "men think with their dicks" comments). Losing your virginity is what makes a boy a man. Because those are highly detrimental to teenagers. And destroying them would have a major impact on teenage pregnancy. Because of course those of us who believe that sex education and contraception is the way forward don't want to see more school aged students having sex. I want to see as few as possible doing so, because I do not believe the vast majority are in any way ready. Based on personal experience. Because at 14, I was desperate to lose my virginity. And that, specifically. I wasn't that fussed about having sex, but that was a necessary part of it. And I didn't want to. I felt I should do. But I was completely clueness in how to achieve that goal. (Thanks in part to my evil irresponsible single parent mother who pushed the idea that friends were girls and boys from a very early age. And no matter how desperate I felt, I was never able to see girls who weren't my sisters as goals, because I'd always interacted with them as people).. So my teenage quest failed miserably and I went back to my books. Lucky that. Because if I'd have succeeded, I'd have seriously fucked my head up. Being as my intelligence had massively outpaced my emotional maturity. Add that to an overactive imagination and you'd have had a kid in a real danger of going completely haywire. Even worse, the fact I was fucked up would I fucked me up. Because everyone knew boys liked having sex. I accept I may well have been an extreme example, but I'm pretty sure most kids that age weren't that much more mature or stable than me. In the end, I lost my virginity at the ripe old age of 19, to a girl I was dating from my course. And, obviously, it was awkward, clumsy and a bit embarassng And there is nothing about it I regret or would change. And I don't know one of my friends who lost it early on who would say that and a good number would change the fact it happened at all at that point. So that's why those things are so importtant. Not just would it reduce the number of teenager pregnancies, destroying these would reduce the number of screwed up teenagers. Because I'm pretty sure that, left to my own devices, this story would end the same, without the worrying. Aside from feeling that I was doing something wrong, I was perfectly happy letting things bimble along at my own pace. And the fact that my first ever proper girlfriend and I expressed our affections mostly through the medium of sitting under random tables, playing footsie and giggling was actually my idea of the perfect relationship at the time. (I still bump into her from time to time and her memories are equally good which is nice). And we need to stop telling kids like me that isn't really the case.

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