RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (Full Version)

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LadyPact -> RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (7/11/2009 2:31:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist


quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Just out of morbid curiosity -- do people see someone as being weak as a BAD, NEGATIVE thing?

LOL,i guess they do.
*shrug*

Personally, I don't see why everyone is having such a hard time with a PERSONAL OPINION. It's just the way I see things; it's not the way the world is.

It simply means that I would not submit to man who I knew had submitted in the past because in my eyes, it makes him weak.

Weak does not equal unintelligent, stupid, or ignorant.

At least this is an improvement.

I completely understand that your preference is not to submit to someone who had submitted before.  I'll defend your position on that all day long because it is your preference and you shouldn't have to change that for anybody.

Perhaps I'm missing something here though.  Do you view submissive males as weak?  Would that include males who submit as part of a dynamic, or just those in play?



stella41b -> RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (7/11/2009 2:33:53 PM)

This to me makes about as much sense as making blind people spend time behaving like dogs before giving them guide dogs so as to make them better owners.

But then again it doesn't surprise me. There's no shortage of people involved in WIITWD who are so clueless they are unable to think beyond their own preconceived notions and perceived stereotypes of what other people and WIITWD should be like.

I never perceive anyone to be weak to be honest, because I know that even the strongest person has times of weakness and this is something which is common to each and every one of us, irrespective of who we are and how we choose to label ourselves.

I'm also not sure that abuse is something you can prevent but rather more sure that it is something which can be dealt with once it manifests itself. Abuse manifests itself in those moments of weakness, it occurs when a line is crossed but knowing where the line is drawn, when it is crossed and how is arbitrary at best and depends on both the people involved and the situation in which it takes place. Blanket statements are neither applicable or helpful.

But then again as Jim Morrison sang 'people are strange'.



Lockit -> RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (7/11/2009 2:34:29 PM)

I am so glad that when I had a male and a female dog and the female was dominant... the male didn't get all wounded and become less a male dog becasue he submitted to her. [8|]

I should sleep more...



RCdc -> RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (7/11/2009 2:36:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist


quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Just out of morbid curiosity -- do people see someone as being weak as a BAD, NEGATIVE thing?

LOL,i guess they do.
*shrug*

Personally, I don't see why everyone is having such a hard time with a PERSONAL OPINION. It's just the way I see things; it's not the way the world is.

It simply means that I would not submit to man who I knew had submitted in the past because in my eyes, it makes him weak.

Weak does not equal unintelligent, stupid, or ignorant.


I am gonna agree with IM that weak isn't a bad thing.
I am totally weak.  That doesn't mean I don't have strength as well.  I can be both.  And having weakness - being weak and aware of ones weakness - fucking rocks.
 
In the same breath, I am not going to use the word 'weak' to describe the type of person whom becomes something they are not, just because a bunch of people make it the law.  I do find them to be crowd pleasers and I also find the action to be little to do with dominance in any way and I certainly could not submit to them.  Male or female.  And that is coming from someone who can top under submission.  I just don't see or find anything attractive in someone whom bows to conformity instead of being themselves, just to get into a group or make themself known.
 
the.dark.



IrishMist -> RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (7/11/2009 2:38:41 PM)

*sigh*

I think everyone is missing something herre.

ahh hell,what the fuck.

Me, being who I am, and me, knowing what kind of men I like and am attracted to....if I was to meet a man who I liked and was attracted to, and then was to find out that he had been a submissive in a relationship, or had bottomed, blah blah blah.....it would turn me off real quick because I would start to see him as weak.

quote:

Do you view submissive males as weak?

On a grand general scale, no, I don't. I happen to know many of them who are strong; emotionally, physically, psychologically, and mentally.
On a personal scale; when seen in relation to the possiblity of a personal relationship, yes, I do see them as weak.

Once again; IT IS A PERSONAL OPIONION...in other words, it comes into play when I look at it personally.

edited to add:
it's funny that the same people who are arguing with me about this are the same people who in the past are so quick to state 'personal opinoins are just that, personal'.

Kind of amusing when I think of it.



Toppingfrmbottom -> RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (7/11/2009 4:47:14 PM)

This statement is where I call time out. What it's like  to be on the other side will be different from person to person, and I do not believe, the idea that if you experinced it for yourself you will know what it is like for your sub. As I said before, somethings  will be an absolute hard limit no go for you, as you experinced it and may actually tickle your sub pink to experince it.


For example I love being spanked, I love the endorphins I love how it stings I love the heat it makes in my butt cheeks, But if you spanked my Daddy, who is absolutely not a massochist and does not like bottoming, and who gets nothing out of being spanked or bottoming, w/ith the same tool, under the premis he should feel it on his ass before he puts it to use on my ass, so he'll know how the toy feels, and what it can do

He's not going to like it, he's not going to experince or understand what I get from it. You're just going to be wasting your time in trying to paddle him to have him know what the toy feels like on ME. by using it on HIM.


It's the same thing with Domination, and what i get out of being dominated. Someone  taking on the role of a submissive doing it in the hopes they'll understand MY experinces and why I submit and what it's like for ME  will not have realistically in my mind an iota of a clue what it was like for ME and what MY motivation was.


quote:

ORIGINAL: vasha

quote:

As a sub/slave, do you find it to be a weakness or a benefit for a Dom/me to have served as a sub/slave in the past?


a Strength.  definatly. and a big one.  She will truely know  and will be able to get inside the sub/slaves head very much easier.  for some,  the training to become a dom, starts from being a slave.  now, this defaintly isnt for all, and sticks in the proverbal craw of many/most dominants, but it IS highly effective in makeing a "good" dom.  they know what its like being on the other side... even if they dont like it.



Toppingfrmbottom -> RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (7/11/2009 5:04:22 PM)

The way it's being presented  in this light yes, I do.
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Just out of morbid curiosity -- do people see someone as being weak as a BAD, NEGATIVE thing?



barelynangel -> RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (7/11/2009 5:09:12 PM)

How is it being presented?  It seems people are preceiving things one way and people like Irish and I preceive it to be another. I think submissive men are weak.  I believe submissive women are weak.  The difference between me and most people is i don't see this to be a BAD NEGATIVE thing, i simply see it as part of the natural existence they have in existing under the stronger will and existence of another.  Sorry but if you look at the actual dynamics of Dominance and submission the very existance of these two concepts are Strength and Weakness.  There is nothing NEGATIVE with regard to either. 

So yeah, it depends HOW you see such a word in and of itself TO YOU, in how you precieve its use by another. 

angel



Toppingfrmbottom -> RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (7/11/2009 5:12:40 PM)

That it some how makes them have less capable of a having a back bone, and be less capable  of shepherding and guiding a relationship. Less of a person to have done so.




quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

How is it being presented?
angel



barelynangel -> RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (7/11/2009 5:20:38 PM)

You and i must be reading two different threads or we simply preceive the use of words differently.  What i see are people who are ashamed of submission and the actuality of the dynamic and what it represents, and people who accept it because they understand the naturalness of the dynamic in and of itself leads to yin and yang of people.

This negativity idea completely flabbergasts me lol and make it appear that submission is something that one must make it what it is not for it to be accepted and appreciated for the beauty that it exists instead of the natural actuality of the beauty within which it exists.

angel



Toppingfrmbottom -> RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (7/11/2009 5:27:16 PM)

We percieve things differently.
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

You and i must be reading two different threads or we simply preceive the use of words differently.

angel



IrishMist -> RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (7/11/2009 5:29:33 PM)

quote:

I am totally weak. That doesn't mean I don't have strength as well. I can be both. And having weakness - being weak and aware of ones weakness - fucking rocks.


quote:

I think submissive men are weak. I believe submissive women are weak. The difference between me and most people is i don't see this to be a BAD NEGATIVE thing, i simply see it as part of the natural existence they have in existing under the stronger will and existence of another.

Bingo

I have learned through the years that it makes little difference how a person tries to explain something; someone will still manage to find the negative in it; no matter how positive it actually can be.




barelynangel -> RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (7/11/2009 5:30:36 PM)

My point exactly.




LadyPact -> RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (7/11/2009 5:55:59 PM)

IrishMist, I actually do appreciate your further explanation.  In a sense, it is an opinion of yours as it relates to personal preferences that you have for the types of males that you would have for intimate relationships with you.  Not especially friends or associates or an opinion on how you may think of submissive males in general.   For those of us who don't particularly see our submissive males (ok Mine) as weak, that's easier to grasp.

There are two ironies that I find in this thread.  The first is that it can be looked at as a backhanded question.  It can also be looked at as, not from the standpoint of does the D actually submit for a term in order to join the group, but did the D submit to the group itself for agreeing to go against what that D might feel is their nature?  The D becomes a follower, rather than a leader.  If the D just goes along with the wishes of the group in order for the D to join, is that not bowing to someone's will in the first place?

The second irony is, that the discussion very quickly turned to whether a male Dominant would submit.  Even though the OP was written by a female and she was very specific with all of those slashes that she intended it for all Dominants, not just those who happened to be male.  Not a single response on the thread said they would see it as a weakness for a Domme.  That was something that I found rather interesting.



quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

This to me makes about as much sense as making blind people spend time behaving like dogs before giving them guide dogs so as to make them better owners.


This was an excellent comment, considering that when this program is entered, you actually go to learn from the animal handlers, not to learn how to be a dog yourself.



ranja -> RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (7/11/2009 6:50:03 PM)

It is probably a nice idea, certainly not a weakness... but forinstance my Husband has zero interest in being submissive...He could not even try to be if He wanted to He is an untoppable type and He also totally hates pain...
He is however smart enough to know how to hurt me deliciously and is very good at ordering me about... and He listens and notices very much.
I do not see how He could be any better if He had to force Himself to kneel for someone.... it would rather disgust Him... That is not to say He would not kneel for me if that would mean He had better access...
He has no interest in clubs as it stands (i am hoping to somehow sub-tly change that) but if He had he would certainly not be attending if He had to have His botty spanked first...
How do people check anyway?



BitaTruble -> RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (7/11/2009 7:22:55 PM)

quote:

Would you agree with this reasoning, or would you consider a Master/Mistress that has served another as weak?


Weak, spinless, lacking in integrity, sell-outs .. whatever. Doing something that you don't want to do just to get into a group that wouldn't accept you otherwise makes my teeth itch and I seriously doubt I could ever see someone who kowtows to the masses as having the strength of character, the power or the ability to compel me to my knees. Motivated to serve just to get into the clique? No, just no for me.



DemonKia -> RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (7/11/2009 8:00:34 PM)

FR, after read thru

& what an entertaining read thru this was . . . . .

Personally, I prefer bi-switches for partners . . . .

But I'm not into needless mandates, & that particular group demand sounds problematic, at a minimum . . .. . & certainly lacking in respect for personal autonomy . . . . .



LdyWintershade -> RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (7/11/2009 8:31:09 PM)

Look, I know that this subject has many people 'worked up', but I just wanted to get some feedback, which I've gotten...and thanks for it.  It has been interesting and direct..lol
As for the group, it's not like they are forcing every person in the area to comply NOR are they the only 'game in town'.  People are aware of the rules before signing on and choose to do so because they agree.
It is NOT any sort of cure for the abuse of power, however in the years since the rule was instituted, there have been less incidents within the group....whether that is the result of the people, the rule or the just dumb luck is anyone's guess. 
Those who created the rule made it their first task to undergo the process themselves to avoid hypocrisy and deferred to one another to accomplish it.
It is also not the ONLY method of weeding out potentially dangerous nut cases.  I won't go into any more of the groups' protocols as it is clear that the majority here would only take exception to it.
Lastly, it may very well be misconception or blatant manipulation; if the former....I give credit for the intention and the attempt because at least they are trying.  If the latter, than kudos to them for being devious and deliciously wicked.
 - I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death, your right to say it.



daintydimples -> RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (7/11/2009 8:31:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

But I'm not into needless mandates, & that particular group demand sounds problematic, at a minimum . . .. . & certainly lacking in respect for personal autonomy . . . . .


I agree wholeheartedly. However, I have been quite surprised at the response not to the mandate, but to the IDEA of a dominant learning through being trained as a submissive. This is not a new concept.

Back in the day (yes this was 30 years ago, yes this was a small BDSM community) training as a submissive was considered an important step for any dominant who wished to call themselves Master or Mistress. Although it was not mandated by any means, it was considered the correct route to follow if you wanted to attain a certian knowledge/skill level. 

This community also had "training subs" who submitted to a dominant for the purpose of mentoring him as a Dominant.

As a mostly submissive switch, I've found I am better sub b/c of my dominant side, and a better dominant b/c of my sub side. Perhaps this only makes sense to other switches.

I must add I do not think submissives are weak at all. It takes a great deal of personal strength to submit to another.

As always, JMO




Lockit -> RE: Weakness or Benefit???? (7/11/2009 8:45:37 PM)

I very much believe that with this rule in place, from what I know of abusive personalities, they wouldn't take part.  I've known many in the work I have done in life and I can't see one of them who was active as an abuser who would subject themselves to anyone. Unless it was court ordered. lol

That is not to say that I think those who wouldn't submit are abusers!  There are many reasons for or against that we have seen right on this thread.  To those who can benefit from it great, to those who wouldn't great.  I just see it as a requirement as odd.  I've done some mild submission at a point in life when I felt I had to and it was best and while I could see some things and relate, I don't think I could really feel the depth of submission as another might and don't feel it made me better as a dominant.  It just proved I couldn't submit! lol



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