RE: Indefinite Detention With or Without Trial (Full Version)

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slvemike4u -> RE: Indefinite Detention With or Without Trial (7/13/2009 4:14:25 PM)

Oops,remember my edited post.....that's where I was going with that Rule.....Roosevelt's only connection to Military Tribunals.



Arpig -> RE: Indefinite Detention With or Without Trial (7/13/2009 4:22:44 PM)

quote:

A military tribunal is neither fish nor fowl in the US justice system, but seems to be the best way to handle the situation and WAS the way we were handling things until the Obama administration accepted terrorists as criminals, and therefore subject to the civilian court system.
Based on the description of what a "military tribunal" is in the article, I would say they are precisely the tool to use to try the Gitmo detainees. That is exactly what they are designed to do, to try an enemy combatant who is accused of breaking the laws of war. However, if such a tribunal finds a given detainee innocent, then that detainee has to be released. To hold him after he has been found innocent of any war crime is simply wrong. No two ways about it.



slvemike4u -> RE: Indefinite Detention With or Without Trial (7/13/2009 4:31:30 PM)

Can't see the Obama administration doing this...on the other hand I can't see the Obama Administration giving their political opponets the open shot either.Can't you see the headlines ....
General Counsel Admits President Obama will Release Dangerous Terrorists.story on page 2.
This is a political hot potato...phrase the question the right way....and there is no right answer...politically speaking.....with Dick Cheney in the background....rubbing his hands together and repeating over and over again....."safer under Bush....safer under Bush"



Arpig -> RE: Indefinite Detention With or Without Trial (7/13/2009 5:00:37 PM)

Oh I agree, Obama is pretty much fucked no matter what he does. That's why I think he should just man up and do the right thing.



slvemike4u -> RE: Indefinite Detention With or Without Trial (7/13/2009 5:57:34 PM)

When did you stop beating your wife?
Actually Arpig there is no "man up" position .....President Obama is not about to announce that he will in any way shape or form release dangerous terrorists....which is where this question would immediately be taken to on every sunday morning news show,Cheney would set a new worlds record for former VP's on tv.
Obama's Presidency is most vulnerable in this one area....one terrorist attack...= weak on security issues.....one terrorist attack after the release of former resident of Guantanomo = start planning the Presidential Libary and forget about a second term.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Indefinite Detention With or Without Trial (7/13/2009 6:20:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

When did you stop beating your wife?
Actually Arpig there is no "man up" position .....President Obama is not about to announce that he will in any way shape or form release dangerous terrorists....which is where this question would immediately be taken to on every sunday morning news show,Cheney would set a new worlds record for former VP's on tv.
Obama's Presidency is most vulnerable in this one area....one terrorist attack...= weak on security issues.....one terrorist attack after the release of former resident of Guantanomo = start planning the Presidential Libary and forget about a second term.

Mike,

I have to agree with you.

But further, I have to say it's his own damn fault.

It's not like this situation was either unexpected or too difficult for such a great mind to anticipate.

Hell, it's the very situation that Bush sought to avoid for so many years, and was castigated about repeatedly.

Which brings us back to the OP, and my question for all the vehement protesters in the US and here on CM: Where the hell are you?

Firm



slvemike4u -> RE: Indefinite Detention With or Without Trial (7/13/2009 6:28:32 PM)

We are right here....and will be here to remind you and anyone else who seems to forget...this is Bush's boondoggle ,from start to finish.It was under his Administration that these men were "collected"...in a haphazard fashion .Bounties and unsupported eyewitness testimony(finger pointing for dollars)
No attention paid to evidence gathering,no care for moral and legal standards during questioning....lack of any procedure that would meet legal standards...from representation to chain of custody evidence collecting.The box President Obama finds himself in was constructed by Bush/Cheney...try to remember that as this President tries to navigate the minefield sowed by the previous administration.



Arpig -> RE: Indefinite Detention With or Without Trial (7/13/2009 8:32:42 PM)

quote:

Actually Arpig there is no "man up" position .....President Obama is not about to announce that he will in any way shape or form release dangerous terrorists....which is where this question would immediately be taken to on every sunday morning news show,Cheney would set a new worlds record for former VP's on tv.
Obama's Presidency is most vulnerable in this one area....one terrorist attack...= weak on security issues.....one terrorist attack after the release of former resident of Guantanomo = start planning the Presidential Libary and forget about a second term.

Actually there is a "man up" position. Do the morally correct thing, regardless of the political consequences. Put those detainees for whom there is some evidence of wrongdoing in front of a tribunal or court and release the rest. Those that are tried, imprison those who are found guilty and release those who are not.
He is fucked if he does this, and he is fucked if he doesn't. A no-win situation like this is the perfect time to do the right thing, the morally correct thing...the Constitutionaly correct thing.

(Little aside: Since I started haunting these political boards here on CM I have learned a whole fuck of a lot about the US Constitution and what its various clauses mean...thanks guys)



Arpig -> RE: Indefinite Detention With or Without Trial (7/13/2009 8:39:08 PM)

quote:

Which brings us back to the OP, and my question for all the vehement protesters in the US and here on CM: Where the hell are you?

Alive and well, and vociferously protesting Obama's policy in this situation, thank you very much.

I happen to believe that all governments should be held to the same standard, regardless of the political orientation of the incumbants.



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Indefinite Detention With or Without Trial (7/13/2009 9:39:11 PM)

Mike, there's no way you can blame Bush for whatever decision Obama makes. Nothing Bush did has any relevance at all - zero relevance - to the way Obama goes forward. Zero. 



slvemike4u -> RE: Indefinite Detention With or Without Trial (7/13/2009 9:45:40 PM)

True Panda....but you can't walk back the cat.Going forward with criminal prosecutions will be nigh on impossible due to all the problems inherited here.Enhanced interrogation alone will make such proceedings unlikely...



Arpig -> RE: Indefinite Detention With or Without Trial (7/13/2009 9:51:48 PM)

You are right mike, criminal prosecutions will be very difficult, but that doesn't change what is right.



slvemike4u -> RE: Indefinite Detention With or Without Trial (7/13/2009 9:59:49 PM)

No it doesn't...but it moves most of these proceeding into the Military Tribunal arena...where the burden of proof is not so onerous.
The other problem inherited is the one having to do with those to be released...after spending years in Guantanamo,perhaps even being radicalised while incarcerated ...where will they be released to...We can't send them back to wherever we plucked from...in many cases their countries of origin are afraid to take them back.... for years we have stated that we were holding some of the worlds most dangerous actors in Cuba...now we ask home countries to accept back a few hundred of these men?.....another gift from Bush/Cheney that just keeps giving



Arpig -> RE: Indefinite Detention With or Without Trial (7/13/2009 10:32:11 PM)

As I said earlier, I think the military tribunal is in fact the proper venue for the trials. As to where we release them to, that is a problem, but in the end I would say we bring them back where we found them (and I say we, because Canada has handed over captives to the US for detention in Gitmo.



slvemike4u -> RE: Indefinite Detention With or Without Trial (7/13/2009 10:36:56 PM)

In some cases that won't be possible Arpig.....



Arpig -> RE: Indefinite Detention With or Without Trial (7/14/2009 12:05:54 AM)

Yaeh, that is true as well mike. I have no overall solution to the mess, which is probably why I am not running the show.



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