RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (Full Version)

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ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/11/2009 3:18:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

ORLY. Do you respect collars as a symbol? I know many Doms who would come to blows over someone disrespecting someones collar. Methinks the flag is a bit more important than a collar.

Actually no, I do not particularly respect a collar as a symbol of anything. I do not respect a wedding band either. I will respect what the collar and/or wedding ring represent, but not the things themselves.



What part of "as a symbol" dont you understand? We are talking about what the flag represents, and the intentional disrespect of the symbol is obviously meant as disrespect for what it represents. Objects can't be disrespected, only their meaning can.

So continue to play semantic games if you like, but your position is inherently inconsistent.


The fact that you're unable to understand it doesn't mean it's inconsistent; it just means that you're, uh... unable to understand it. His argument makes perfect sense - it's just sailing 20 feet over your head because apparently you either can't grasp (or can't tolerate) the fact that not every human being on the planet sees symbols the same way you do. Maybe if you were a little more open-minded, you might  understand what he's saying. And maybe even learn something. I mean, it's possible.

As an aside, once again I find as fascinating as it is depressing to see people who brag about their patriotism trashing the Constitution of the United States, and in doing so.... showing such total disrespect for this country.



Arpig -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/11/2009 3:23:09 PM)

No willbeur it isn't inconsistant. It is not possible to disrespect a flag, simply because a flag is worthy of no respect. The US flag is no more inherently deserving of respect than a Macdonald's or Microsoft corporate flag. The flag is a thing that represents something else, and it is the thing that it represents that is worthy (or not) of respect. Mistreating the symbol is usually in and of itself a symbol of opposition to whatever the flag represents to others. Thus when the people of Brockville trampled the Quebec flag back in 1989 they were not expressing disrespect for Quebec, but rather for the political aims of the Parti Quebecois.



tazzygirl -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/11/2009 3:23:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I simply cannot understand the bizzare attitude of most Americans to their flag. Its a friggin piece of cloth!! How can one disrespect a piece of cloth? Its a symbol you say? Fine its a symbol, nothing more or less, just a symbol, no different really than the Nike swoop.

quote:

It is a great disrespect to the flag to fly it like that.
Why and how is it at all disrespectful? Its an accepted international distress signal to fly a flag upside down. No disrespect at all.




you dont have to understand... just acknowledge that it is. the flag is something a navy seal will kill over... a group of army men will fight over... and countless of men have been buried under... often the flag the last thing given to the family from the casket. its the symbol that has been in every battle. its what men look up too. it gives them a symbol of purpose and a reminder of the US and what they are fighting for.

a flag upside down is a distress call.
a flag half mast is flown that way in honor of a death.
a flag that touches the ground should be burned immediately and replaced.

the amazing thing is... we lso support those who burn flags as a sign of protest. i may not like the flag being burned, or hung upside down, but, i will support who does... in the spirit of freedom... and probably shoot someone who desecrates it.



Arpig -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/11/2009 3:45:16 PM)

quote:

and probably shoot someone who desecrates it.
You see, that attitude is something I simply cannot accept. To me it speaks of a dangerous degree of imbuing inanimate objects with an unhealthy significance that they do not inherently have. A US flag does have a value....about $8.00 ( http://www.flagsimporter.com/american/product_info.php/pName/2x3ft-polyusa-flag// ), that's it. No more. The idea of killing over a scrap of cloth is ridiculous, I do understand that it has been done for ages, but that does not make it any less asinine. I do aknowledge that such an attitude exists, however, since it is an inane attitude, I will give it no more shrift than I do the belief in the easter bunny.



tazzygirl -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/11/2009 3:51:41 PM)

and that is your choice to do. just realize, others may not share your attitude. as a canadian, i wouldnt expect you to understand.



Arpig -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/11/2009 3:56:36 PM)

quote:

as a canadian, i wouldnt expect you to understand.
You assume that as a Canadian I have no patriotism? Or is it that you assume that as a Canadian I wouldn't have a bizarre fetish with a bit of coloured cloth? Inquiring minds want to know.



TheHeretic -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/11/2009 3:59:17 PM)

       You might be right, Panda, and the jackass might get his money back.  Wouldn't it be funny if they wind up making a deal over this, and then his club fails almost because of the publicity? 

      I've come to an opinion about the owner of this place.  He has the right to express his opinion, by flying the flag upside down.   I have the right to express mine, by never setting foot in the place.

      Did the authorities have the right to express something too, when they pulled his down, prior to the 4th of July parade, and gave him the flag back, on the 5th? 

      And yeah, I do happen to think that an upside-down flag along the parade might piss somebody off enough to be a problem



slvemike4u -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/11/2009 4:00:29 PM)

Tazzy that is unfair.....Canada does in fact have a flag...and arpig's POV,seems to be,covering all flags.
Can't say I can find any fault with his views either.....while stating that you would shoot someone for the act of desecrating a flag....is IMO a little extreme.
By the way...you will support someones right to "burn the flag"...but shoot someone who "desecrates" it.....could you help me out and explain the fine line between those two acts...one which would receive your support,the other....hot  lead?



tazzygirl -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/11/2009 4:08:08 PM)

the act of burning a flag in protest is an act against the government.. something you may not agree with.. and sometimes it takes extreme measures to get noticed. historically, it was shown by burning the flag. i also recall a man years ago who peed on a flag, then took it and hung it back up.. when asked why.. he simply said.. because i can. he had no political agenda.

just because something has a monetary value, doesnt mean it holds the same intrinsic value for everyone. a bible costs.. average 10 bucks... how many religious wars have been raged because of the differences between the bible and other forms of religion? when you live and die beneath a symbol of peace and freedom, when people in your family also live and die by the same symbol, it comes to mean a whole lot more than just a few dollars and being just a piece of cloth.



tazzygirl -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/11/2009 4:10:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

as a canadian, i wouldnt expect you to understand.
You assume that as a Canadian I have no patriotism? Or is it that you assume that as a Canadian I wouldn't have a bizarre fetish with a bit of coloured cloth? Inquiring minds want to know.



i have no clue, to be honest. you have stated that its just a piece of cloth, so, all i can assume is that you dont, by your own words. does that mean yours has more value than mine? i would not say that about your flag, or mexicos, or anyones. because i dont know what value you place upon it. i speak only of my own, and the fact that you, as a canadian, obviously do not know the value we do place on the stars and stripes.



Arpig -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/11/2009 4:19:34 PM)

I am very patriotic, but I place no particular value on a flag. I don't fetishise inanimate objects.



tazzygirl -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/11/2009 4:21:16 PM)

so because you dont, no one should?



Naga -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/11/2009 4:27:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I am very patriotic, but I place no particular value on a flag. I don't fetishize inanimate objects.


You are not understanding at all. It has to do with reverence, not magic. If you understand patriotism, you understand the reverence that is being expressed. It has to do with many things; the values expressed, the people who have died to preserve those values and even the religious nature of the country (shared by some, but not by all) and its founding.

It has to do with respect and gratitude. No one can teach or give it to you, you have to experience it for yourself. Then you will understand.



slvemike4u -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/11/2009 4:33:50 PM)

I'm still not clear concerning the whole" fighting for someones right to burn a flag"...while stating a willingness to shoot another for" desecrating a flag".
Are we talking about the same flag?



Naga -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/11/2009 4:42:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I'm still not clear concerning the whole" fighting for someones right to burn a flag"...while stating a willingness to shoot another for" desecrating a flag".
Are we talking about the same flag?


You will have to ask her for specifics, but you can burn a flag without desecrating it.....



tazzygirl -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/11/2009 4:45:18 PM)

same flag... different protest. the flag stands for freedom. i grew up on military bases most of my life. as the military often said... you can burn it, just dont shit on it. burning is acceptable as a means to get rid of a flag, you can also bury a flag. recently, recycling has become another method. there is actually a flag code for this.

http://www.montney.com/flag/flagcode.htm

my feeling is, if you burn a flag in protest, then, i really cant complain because you are getting rid of it in an appropriate manner.



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/11/2009 4:49:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I am very patriotic, but I place no particular value on a flag. I don't fetishize inanimate objects.


You are not understanding at all. It has to do with reverence, not magic. If you understand patriotism, you understand the reverence that is being expressed. It has to do with many things; the values expressed, the people who have died to preserve those values...




One of which is the Constitutional right to burn the flag or fly it upside down. If the Constitution allows people to use the flag as an expression of free speech, then it follows that preventing someone from flying the flag upside down, is in itself a rejection and a repudiation of the Constitution, and thus a rejection and repudiation of fundamental American values.

Which raises the questions - how can someone who is willing to deny a fellow citizen their Constitutional right to free expression truly call themselves a patriot? I'd say Arpig has a much better understanding of the concept of patriotism than some of the people he's arguing against here.

Edit: let's move it away from the red herring of flag-burning.



tazzygirl -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/11/2009 4:52:22 PM)

i never said i would shoot them for burning a flag, Panda



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/11/2009 4:54:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

i never said i would shoot them for burning a flag, Panda


No, you didn't, and you were clear in that. We're all kind of wandering away from the original topic, though, so I edited my post to get it back closer to the original point.



barelynangel -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/11/2009 5:01:25 PM)

~FR~

To me, if you want to understand the significance of the American Flag, simply listen to the National Anthem.  The American flag is one of the most known symbols in the world. The Flag is used for so many things, if the flag wasn't so significant to this Man he wouldn't have flown it upside down in protest so your logic works both ways here --- he obviously put significance upon it just as the people who felt offended by his actions.

So no, i can see why a Canadian wouldn't see the significance on The Flag but much of what is used for significance in our country actually does put a lot of meaning onto the Flag, no matter which flag it is -- a $1.00 plastic one people hold at parades or such to the Flag hanging in my former's bosses office which was flown at the White House on behalf of Ronald Reagan I believe. 

Sure you don't have to put any stock in what did you call it $8.00 piece of cloth, however, to many simply by what that cloth is made to be gives it significance to many.  -- just like money.  Is it really just a piece of paper?  Or is the significance placed upon it what means something?  If you think money is simply a piece of paper with no value and/or meaning -- then let me know, i'll take it off your hands for you.

angel



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