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RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/13/2009 11:10:56 PM   
Arpig


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From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		Willbeur, you keep moving the goalposts. There are certain rights that we in the US & Canada recognise as inherent and unalienable, that is the whole basis of our society. That we have these rights, regardless of the desires of that society. That you do not recognise these rights as such only shows that you do not understand the first thing about the society you live in. When the US was founded, the Continental Congress set out to create a just society. In order to do so, they specified certain rights as inherent. That means the rights exist at the founding of the society, that they are not granted by the society, but that society must build itself around those pre-existing rights. That is why it is refered to as the "free" world. Because we have certain rights and freedoms that cannot be taken away, and they cannot be taken away because they are inherent, they devolve upon the individual simply because the individual exists.


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Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/13/2009 11:23:07 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

Arpig and Panda, as well as others, have quite eloquently argued the side of this debate which I identify with, and that leaves my to stand by, shake my head, roll my eyes, and mutter "All this over a piece of cloth! Americans!".


I say it a dozen times a day. I'm surrounded by them. America would be a wonderful country if there weren't so damned many Americans living in it.




Feel free to go where there aren't so many then.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/13/2009 11:25:41 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

Arpig and Panda, as well as others, have quite eloquently argued the side of this debate which I identify with, and that leaves my to stand by, shake my head, roll my eyes, and mutter "All this over a piece of cloth! Americans!".


I say it a dozen times a day. I'm surrounded by them. America would be a wonderful country if there weren't so damned many Americans living in it.




Feel free to go where there aren't so many then.


Well, that was predictable.


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RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/13/2009 11:31:17 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I have not forgotten that such things were done (and porbably still are), but the fact that they were done does not make them right. If somebody is in danger from a mob, then I see nothing wrong with the police taking that person to a safe place, such as the police station and then arresting those who were endangering the person in question, but to incarcerate them until things cooled off would be wrong. The law states that you cannot threaten somebody. It should either be enforced or repealed, not enforced when convenient and ignored when inconvenient.

I was thinking this was said in response to Me.  Sometimes that darn 'in reply to' thing is a pain.

It may be wrong to incarcerate a person until a mob cools off.  Yet, if that helps to keep a person alive, rather than to be lynched up, I'm honestly not going to argue with the method.  If taking down a flag is going to prevent a surge of violence, I'm probably going to say that I'm in favor of that, too. 

None of us knows what might have happened.  The potentials do cause Me concern.  Would I rather see the flag flown in a sign of distress taken down, rather than see injury to person or property?  Yes.

To the best of My knowledge, flying a flag in such a manner is directly related to serious threat of harm.  It's not supposed to be done over such a silly thing as someone got themselves in over their head financially.  It's supposed to be when one is worried they might not have a head without assistance.  That's what the signal is for.  Not that someone can't pay their debts because they foolishly got themselves into a financial situation that they couldn't reconcile.

As for that piece of cloth thing.....  Well, I've made My comments on other threads about what that piece of cloth might mean to Me in a certain context on other threads.  I probably shouldn't go into it again here.

However,  I am curious.  What piece of cloth covers the casket for those who give their lives in service to their country in Canada?  Is it just a piece of cloth then as well?


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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/13/2009 11:36:22 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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quote:

Does this particular entry answer your question, slaveboy?


No it doesn't. By that logic, I shouldn't have anything up on my property displaying an opinion on any day that might stir a large group of people into anger. Let's say I have a business, and in the window of my business hangs a sign expressing my support for gay rights, civil rights for minorities, pro-choice views, whatever. Well one day, a group of 4000 neo-Nazis/anti-gay activists/anti-abortion activists/whatever schedules a march through town past my business. I guess the police should come steal my sign to prevent them from destroying the town in outrage?

Rights are designed to specifically protect the few, not the many. The many don't need protection.

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 7/13/2009 11:37:01 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/13/2009 11:47:54 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		If four thousand folks show up at your door, let Me know.  Believe or not, I'd stand right there with you.

This goes back to the difference between free speech and yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.  In this country, one may say anything they wish, as long as they are not putting a number of people in peril.  A sign of calling distress is the same.  I think this person knew exactly what excitement he could inspire doing so.  Being a veteran, he knew exactly that it was for other purposes, rather than something as non life threatening as a liquor license.

Personally, I would laugh My ass off if the liquor license was granted now.  When the business fails due to how he has responded in his actions, I will have no sympathy for him.




_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/13/2009 11:51:51 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

However,  I am curious.  What piece of cloth covers the casket for those who give their lives in service to their country in Canada?  Is it just a piece of cloth then as well?

It is the Canadian flag that covers the soldiers' caskets. And surely you know me well enough by now to know the answer to your second question. I am consistant. Yes it is just a piece of cloth. Any value it may have to the soldier's family is purely private and sentimental, and applies to that specific piece of cloth. It gains no inherent value due to its being a Canadian flag.


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Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/14/2009 12:10:47 AM   
MisterP61


Posts: 1345
Joined: 10/9/2007
Status: offline 		I have held off on posting to this thread for two days now. 

I am a active duty American soldier for 14 years now.  I serve so people can have their opinions on any subject they choose.  I do not have to agree with them, even if I think they are dumb (personal opinion there).  Yes individual rights to Me take precedence over the many.  Was this guy within his rights as an American citizen.... Yes, absolutely so.  Here is where I have a problem with it.... he is a veteran.... he knew exactly what the flag upside down meant..... all because he did not get a liquor license.  I am pretty sure he also knew what kind of response he would get from other citizens, whether or not they ever served in the armed forces.  Would I have threatened the man... NO... would I have let him know how absurd I thought his "protest" was... hell yes.  I also believe he will now have a failed business as well.  How many of the individual people who saw this have had or still do have a family member serving this country?  We will probably never really know that. 

I think what few are seeing is that even though it was a crowd that had a problem with this display of the flag, they are also individuals who have rights too.  Granted threatening harm (I blame this on the whole mob mentality) was in no way the proper response, nor was waiting until the day of the parade to try to ask him to take the flag down for this one particular day.

As for the 8 to 12 dollar flag... the piece of cloth as some so eloquently put it has a much more intrinsic value to a vet of any war.  Yes it is a symbol... a symbol that many have died for.... one which I have put My personal life on the line for.... one which I will one day get buried with... with the union jack over my left shoulder.  I am proud of what that symbol stands for... good bad or indifferent.

Now for you slaveboy.... I am sorry to say that your argument holds no water in My opinion..... all of those groups are labeled (not by Me) as hate/terrorist groups, and unless they did not go through the proper channels and arrange their march (which in most towns and cities is illegal) there would be an inordinate amount of security provided along the march route, so NO they would not be able to do as you say... there have been lessons learned from the past why this is so.  Again let Me say I still support their right to spew their hate.

Again this is My opinion and Mine alone.  Agree or disagree is no matter.  All I ask is that you revel in your ability to do so.

MrP


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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/14/2009 12:33:20 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

However,  I am curious.  What piece of cloth covers the casket for those who give their lives in service to their country in Canada?  Is it just a piece of cloth then as well?

It is the Canadian flag that covers the soldiers' caskets. And surely you know me well enough by now to know the answer to your second question. I am consistant. Yes it is just a piece of cloth. Any value it may have to the soldier's family is purely private and sentimental, and applies to that specific piece of cloth. It gains no inherent value due to its being a Canadian flag.



Fair enough, Sweetie.  Fair enough.


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Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/14/2009 12:41:15 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

I think what few are seeing is that even though it was a crowd that had a problem with this display of the flag, they are also individuals who have rights too. 
Yes they do have rights, however none of their rights was in any way infringed upon. One does not have the right to not be offended or pissed off.


_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/14/2009 12:46:21 AM   
MisterP61


Posts: 1345
Joined: 10/9/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

I think what few are seeing is that even though it was a crowd that had a problem with this display of the flag, they are also individuals who have rights too. 
Yes they do have rights, however none of their rights was in any way infringed upon. One does not have the right to not be offended or pissed off.

LOL   I was not saying anything but they have rights as individuals to not want to see that.  Always two sides to a coin basically.


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Though the truth may vary, this ship will carry our bodies safe to shore - Of Monsters and Men
What is the maximum effective range of an excuse? Zero meters!

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/14/2009 1:55:41 AM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
...
However,  I am curious.  What piece of cloth covers the casket for those who give their lives in service to their country in Canada?  Is it just a piece of cloth then as well?



I know this was not directed at me, but as one of those on the "piece of cloth" side, I thought I would chime in too.

For a long time we did not have those caskets, but in the last years there have been deaths in service, and caskets covert with the German flag. And yes, that flag too, for me is only a piece of cloth. A symbol, that in this case marks a sad occasion, but a symbol with no inherent worth of its own only.

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RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/14/2009 2:22:57 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

Now for you slaveboy.... I am sorry to say that your argument holds no water in My opinion..... all of those groups are labeled (not by Me) as hate/terrorist groups, and unless they did not go through the proper channels and arrange their march (which in most towns and cities is illegal) there would be an inordinate amount of security provided along the march route, so NO they would not be able to do as you say... there have been lessons learned from the past why this is so. Again let Me say I still support their right to spew their hate.


I was making a hypothetical. You can apply any large group of people to what I said. It could be the town crazy flying a huge Confederate flag at his house the day of a large NAACP meeting. It could be an animal rights activist putting shocking pictures of animal abuse on a sign the day of an FFA or 4-H gathering. So forget extremist groups; I simply used those examples to provoke a response.

The fact remains that a group of police officers illegally removed someone's property without due process. The 5th Amendment to the Consitution of the United States specifically states, "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

Simply put, the town and the police violated this man's Constitutional rights. Yes, this man is a twit. You won't find me defending his character. But a twit has a right to be a twit within the law. If he pisses some people off while exercising his right.....tough. You have no right to be protected from offensive speech. Despite what some have claimed, this is not akin to shouting fire in a theater. Shouting fire in a theater is a criminal act. It's a deliberate attempt to cause panic, and the crime requires intent on the part of the offender. The liquor license-less, upside-down flag waver in question here is attempting to annoy, not cause panic. It's not the same thing. Flying a distress call is obvious symbolism. Any charge of inciting a riot or signaling a false alarm would not hold water in any court of law.

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 7/14/2009 2:30:13 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/14/2009 6:08:51 AM   
Arpig


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From: Increasingly further from reality
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quote:

LOL   I was not saying anything but they have rights as individuals to not want to see that.  Always two sides to a coin basically.

That's just the point MisterP61, they do NOT have the right to not see it.


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Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/14/2009 6:15:15 AM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

You have no right to be protected from offensive speech.


Just out of curiosity, do any of you actually believe you have freedom of speach or freedom of expression guarenteed to you in the US?

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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/14/2009 9:35:15 AM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
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From: Increasingly further from reality
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quote:

Just out of curiosity, do any of you actually believe you have freedom of speach or freedom of expression guarenteed to you in the US?
Yes (well mine is guaranteed me in Canada, but yes all the same).

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Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/14/2009 9:40:56 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

You have no right to be protected from offensive speech.


Just out of curiosity, do any of you actually believe you have freedom of speach or freedom of expression guarenteed to you in the US?


Maybe I don't understand your question, but - of course.


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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/14/2009 9:51:08 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		How do you figure you have freedom of speach when you cant say certain things... cant post certain things.. cant publish certain things... how does that equate to freedom of speach or expression?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/14/2009 9:55:24 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

How do you figure you have freedom of speach when you cant say certain things... cant post certain things.. cant publish certain things...


Like what, for example? So I know what we're talking about.


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In the forest of the night
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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/14/2009 10:01:07 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Perfect example... the teen that was talked about in this thread. He expressed his opinion... and he was arrested for that. if you burn a cross, you will be arrested for that. if you say the wrong thing about a public official you will be arrested for that. im sure we can come up with others.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 160
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