RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (Full Version)

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willbeurdaddy -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/14/2009 10:18:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Perfect example... the teen that was talked about in this thread. He expressed his opinion... and he was arrested for that. if you burn a cross, you will be arrested for that. if you say the wrong thing about a public official you will be arrested for that. im sure we can come up with others.


Freedom carries responsibilities. There is no conflict between granting freedom but proscribing its abuse.



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/14/2009 10:23:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Perfect example... the teen that was talked about in this thread. He expressed his opinion... and he was arrested for that. if you burn a cross, you will be arrested for that. if you say the wrong thing about a public official you will be arrested for that. im sure we can come up with others.

Freedom carries responsibilities. There is no conflict between granting freedom but proscribing its abuse.


Yeah, that pretty much sums up my answer. I've got the freedom to drive a car, but I don't have the freedom to drive it on the sidewalk. That doesn't mean I don't have the freedom to drive a car. It's just that there are reasonable limitations on how and where I drive it.




tazzygirl -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/14/2009 10:24:26 AM)

so then it could be said that the freedom of the individual hinges upon its use towards another individual or a group.



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/14/2009 10:30:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

so then it could be said that the freedom of the individual hinges upon its use towards another individual or a group.


Let's stick with my earlier example. Where my freedom to drive a car conflicts with your freedom to walk down the sidewalk without getting run over, my freedom to drive my car is limited by law. This is a reasonable limitation.

I see where you're going with this, but I don't see any way you're going to be able to make a rational argument that the townspeople's freedom to not have to see an upside down flag is a reasonable justification for infringing on that man's freedom to fly his flag upside down. Nor do I believe you're going to be able to make a convincing argument that there was a legitimate public safety risk associated with flying the flag upside down. You're reaching for something that just isn't there.



tazzygirl -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/14/2009 10:37:49 AM)

Im not. someone mentioned that the rights of the individual superceded the rights of the many. I was merely pointing out that that isnt always the case. who knows, this may set a precedence for changes in how we view the flag, or the rights of a community over the rights of an individual. i cant wait to see how it plays out. which may be why the ACLU is considering it.



downkitty -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/14/2009 10:41:40 AM)

I'm still seeing this as more akin to yelling "fire" in a crowd.  My problem with this is that flying the flag upside down is an international distress signal.  It has nothing to do with desecration of the flag, IMO.  If he had flown the flag with a giant "X" through it, or had cut it to shreds and flown it anyway, I would be saying the police and DA were out of bounds with their actions.  That would be an obvious protest (to me), and while I may be highly annoyed, I would defend his right to do so.  What he did, though, is raise an international distress call.  How is this different than making fake 911 calls, or yelling "fire" in a crowd?




tazzygirl -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/14/2009 10:45:20 AM)

again, that will hopefully come up. i dont see it any different than you do, except his USE to me was petty and therefore disrespectful... in my opinion. some believe differently. now.. its up to the courts.



Arpig -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/14/2009 10:51:05 AM)

Sorry Panda, but your analogy is false. Driving is a priviledge, not a right. The people in that little town do not have any legal or Constitutional "freedom to not have to see an upside down flag". They do not have any such right or freedom. The f;lag flyer, however, does have a legal and constitutional right to fly that flag any way he wants.
What happened is that a bunch of townsfolk complained that a local idiot was flying the flag upside down in July 4th, and the DA ordered the police to break the law and to illegally trespass and steal said flag. the only laws that were broken were broken by the police.





tazzygirl -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/14/2009 11:08:44 AM)

Driving is a conditional right. if you can pass the test, then you can drive. no one at that point can tell you that you cant drive, unless you break a rule, and then the punishments for each state are spelled out for the rule that you broke.



Arpig -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/14/2009 11:27:44 AM)

You can have your license revoked for non-payment of child support. The fact that you require a license is proof that it is not a right. Neither society at large, nor the state grants one a right. You are endowed with them by the mere fact of your existence. We are fortunate that we live in countries where this self-evident fact is recognised, but the fact that there are countries in the world where it isn't recognised in no way detracts from its truth (despite what wilbeurdaddy says).

I challenge anybody to show me where in the constitution or body of law the right (or freedom) of the townsfolk to not be offended derives from. To the best of my knowledge there is no such right or freedom in either the Constitution, US law, or Common Law.

The rights of the many do not supercede the rights of the individual, in fact just the opposite is the case.



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/14/2009 11:38:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Sorry Panda, but your analogy is false. Driving is a priviledge, not a right.




I know. I was responding to Wellbeur's post about freedoms.



tazzygirl -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/14/2009 2:09:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

You can have your license revoked for non-payment of child support. The fact that you require a license is proof that it is not a right. Neither society at large, nor the state grants one a right. You are endowed with them by the mere fact of your existence. We are fortunate that we live in countries where this self-evident fact is recognised, but the fact that there are countries in the world where it isn't recognised in no way detracts from its truth (despite what wilbeurdaddy says).

I challenge anybody to show me where in the constitution or body of law the right (or freedom) of the townsfolk to not be offended derives from. To the best of my knowledge there is no such right or freedom in either the Constitution, US law, or Common Law.

The rights of the many do not supercede the rights of the individual, in fact just the opposite is the case.


First, that is a stipulation of getting a drivers license, that you obey the rules, and part of the rules state that if you dont pay your child support, they will be revoked.

Now, explain what i am endowed with by the mere presence of my existance.



slaveboyforyou -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/14/2009 2:44:44 PM)

quote:

if you burn a cross, you will be arrested for that. if you say the wrong thing about a public official you will be arrested for that. im sure we can come up with others.


No you won't. You would only be arrested if you burned a cross as a means to threaten or harass someone. If you burned one in a black man's yard or in front of a Jewish community center, yeah. But if you burn one on your own property in conjunction with some moronic ceremony, no you won't be arrested legally. You can say whatever you want about any public official with the exception of making threats or speech containing libelous information. Libel is a civil matter for the most part, but threats are criminal acts. No you don't have the right to threaten to kill or harm someone.

None of these restrictions on speech apply. Y'all can keep throwing up the 'shouting fire in a theater' argument all you want. Flying a flag upside down is a symbolic gesture. You have to have the element of intent in a signaling a false alarm prosecution. The element of intent does not exist here. It's basic criminal law 101. It's a false analogy; you're wrong. Even if they wanted to try and pull that bullshit argument out of the hat, they have to actually charge him with a crime to remove his property. Again, the 5th Amendment clearly states that one's property can not be seized without due process of law. He wasn't charged with a crime, he wasn't issued a summons, he wasn't issued a cease and desist order from a judge. The police can't go out and act independently from the judiciary. Sorry, but you're wrong.

By the way, the attorney here is not a "DA." He's a city attorney. He's an attorney employed by the city to consult in legal matters and defend the city in civil suits....not the same thing.



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/14/2009 2:53:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

if you burn a cross, you will be arrested for that. if you say the wrong thing about a public official you will be arrested for that. im sure we can come up with others.


No you won't. You would only be arrested if you burned a cross as a means to threaten or harass someone. If you burned one in a black man's yard or in front of a Jewish community center, yeah. But if you burn one on your own property in conjunction with some moronic ceremony, no you won't be arrested legally.


ROFL. Try doing it and claiming it wasn't meant to harass or incite.



slaveboyforyou -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/14/2009 2:57:02 PM)

quote:

ROFL. Try doing it and claiming it wasn't meant to harass or incite.


The Klan does it on private property all the time.



tazzygirl -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/14/2009 3:00:38 PM)

Private property out of sight.



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/14/2009 3:03:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Private property out of sight.


And the out of sight is the key.



slaveboyforyou -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/14/2009 3:08:04 PM)

quote:

Private property out of sight.


I'm not the one that made the claim that you'd be arrested for burning a cross. No, you can't just erect a cross in town square and set it ablaze. You'd need a permit to do that, and you probably wouldn't get it. You'd have to fight for one in the courts. It still doesn't remove your rights.

It still has nothing to do with this case. You don't have to have a permit to fly a flag upside down on private property. I've already explained how it's not illegal. You're trying to skate around the issue. The police had no legal right to do what they did.



tazzygirl -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/14/2009 3:14:36 PM)

If i know the cross is burning, it wouldnt be out of sight, now would it. unless you are indicating that i would burn a cross. however, in plain site.. since we must be SO exact.. of any group of people who may see it and find it offensive... you cant burn a cross.

and i asked a simple question.... what rights are endowned to me just by the fact that i am here.

i have already said the flag issue will be settled by the courts. think a bit broader for a moment.



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Small town politics, ain't it great (7/14/2009 3:24:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

If i know the cross is burning, it wouldnt be out of sight, now would it. unless you are indicating that i would burn a cross. however, in plain site.. since we must be SO exact.. of any group of people who may see it and find it offensive... you cant burn a cross.


Not true. I can burn one right now in my front yard if I like, in view of the neighbors and anyone happening to drive down my street, and it would be completely legal as long as I wasn't doing it with the intent to intimidate any of them.

And whether they find it offensive doesn't enter into the equation at all. The fact that people are offended by it does not make it illegal... for pretty much the same reason that the fact that people are offended by seeing the flag flying upside down does not make it illegal. Offending people is not against the law. As we keep trying to tell you, but you don't seem to believe for some reason.



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