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RE: Attorney General May Probe Bush Torture Policy - 7/14/2009 3:22:46 PM   
Slavehandsome


Posts: 382
Joined: 9/19/2004
Status: offline 		Nobody's going to shut down the CIA. IF there's a probe, the probe is going to be neutered, just like the Warren Commission, or the 9/11 omission report. The absolute first thing to come out of the White House, was that nobody in the Obama administration was going to hold anybody from the Bush administration accountable for anything that they did during the Bush years. That includes the CIA. It might be of historical significance to in fact launch a probe and say that we did. But don't worry, it'll be business as usual, just like it still is in Guantanamo, right this very second. Did ya hear the joke? "Change"

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Attorney General May Probe Bush Torture Policy - 7/14/2009 3:35:30 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
No one could give a CIA officer a legal order to not report to Congress.


It's called an executive order...Look it up


I know quite a bit more about them than you do apparently. They do not have force of law and cannot over ride existing law. It is a legal requirement that the gang of 8 be notified of all covert operations. Neither Cheney nor Bush could legally order CIA officers to break that law.

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Attorney General May Probe Bush Torture Policy - 7/14/2009 11:24:20 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
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quote:

Are you sure your from Canada.....you seem to have a better grasp of what goes on down here....than most of the citizens of this great Country(my self included).

Yes I am sure I am Canadian. I know what I know about what happens in the US because whatever happens down there has a profound effect on us up here. Our brilliant Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau once likened the Canada-US relationship to sleeping with an elephant. Its a very apt metaphor.

Along those lines. many years ago I attended a fabulous concert in Buffalo New York on the 4th of July (Grateful Dead, Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers, and Bob Dylan...eat your hearts out young uns!). After the show there was a massive all-night party in the parking lot (the police blocked the exits and refused to allow anybody to leave til the next day, they did however allow several semi truck's full of beer in). Any way it was way back during the budget crisis when the Gramm-Rudman bill was before congress, and I spent the majority of the night giving a long lecture to a very large crowd of Americans on just what the ramifications of that bill were, and from there into explaining to them how the US government actually functioned, the balance of powers, meaning of the Bill of Rights, etc. And yes we had all indulged to excess in the appropriate substances for  Grateful Dead concert. It is one of my favourite memories, talking away the night while swilling beers (there seemed to be an unending free supply) and toking endlessly while fireworks exploded 2-3 feet over our heads (with the expected additional visual effects, given the chemicals involved). Towards dawn, I had an audience of 20 or 30, and they were asking questions and shit just like I was a professor. It was surreal in the extreme.

And Willbuer, I got the joke this time, and it was a good one

< Message edited by Arpig -- 7/14/2009 11:42:37 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Attorney General May Probe Bush Torture Policy - 7/15/2009 12:08:21 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

Neither Cheney nor Bush could legally order CIA officers to break that law.

And that is as it should be.

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Attorney General May Probe Bush Torture Policy - 7/15/2009 6:15:04 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

And while we are on the topic of deplorable sexual behavior, Robert Kennedy having an affair with his dead brother's wife is about as low as you can go.



No, about as low as you can go is posting a claim from a widely discredited author as being a proven fact.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Attorney General May Probe Bush Torture Policy - 7/15/2009 8:06:56 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

This is a really fucking brilliant plan for shutting down the CIA. Make the CIA employees so afraid of prosecution, despite legal orders, that they choose not to do their jobs because of the legal jeopardy our asshat of an AG would gladly prosecute them for.


I see.

We should just absolve them of any responsibility to the law.

Because, after all, they're protecting us, right?



Perhaps you should read my post better, or get better glasses...There I used bold font for you.



I think the point was already addressed that they could not be legal orders.

You cannot order someone to violate the law.

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Attorney General May Probe Bush Torture Policy - 7/15/2009 8:08:11 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

Neither Cheney nor Bush could legally order CIA officers to break that law.

And that is as it should be.


Im not sure that is correct however. Much gets done in the name of national security, and I have no doubt that there isnt full transparency.

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Attorney General May Probe Bush Torture Policy - 7/15/2009 8:09:11 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

And while we are on the topic of deplorable sexual behavior, Robert Kennedy having an affair with his dead brother's wife is about as low as you can go.



No, about as low as you can go is posting a claim from a widely discredited author as being a proven fact.



ad hominen doesnt cut it, but you havent learned that lesson yet

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Attorney General May Probe Bush Torture Policy - 7/15/2009 8:26:59 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

Im not sure that is correct however. Much gets done in the name of national security, and I have no doubt that there isnt full transparency.

I don't doubt that laws have at times been broken by the CIA, nor do I doubt that this was done on orders from on high, however, those orders were not legal.


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(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Attorney General May Probe Bush Torture Policy - 7/15/2009 8:32:43 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline 		Hmmmm.

Now I don't see that as ad hominen when someone is spreading discredited claims by an attention and money seeking author.

So if you have any other sources to back up your claim about how "deplorable" RFK was then present them.

In the meantime, forgive me if I find your spreading of this tabloid nonsense deplorable.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Attorney General May Probe Bush Torture Policy - 7/15/2009 9:59:21 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Hmmmm.

Now I don't see that as ad hominen when someone is spreading discredited claims by an attention and money seeking author.

So if you have any other sources to back up your claim about how "deplorable" RFK was then present them.

In the meantime, forgive me if I find your spreading of this tabloid nonsense deplorable.



I bolded the ad hominen for you. It isnt sufficient to claim someone is "discredited" or "seeking attention or money", you have to provide evidence to the contrary.

"The book, which hits shelves this month, also includes recollections of the steamy affair from a host of other Kennedy family intimates, including Pierre Salinger, Arthur Schlesinger, Jack Newfield, Gore Vidal, Truman Capote and Morton Downey Jr.

Author C. David Heymann said he spent nearly two decades researching the tome, even digging through old FBI and Secret Service files about the clandestine couple. Tapes of his exhaustive interviews are available at the SUNY Stony Brook library."

Now if you can show that those interviewed lied, or that the tapes of the interviews conflict with the book, go right ahead. "Tabloid nonsense" was also used to describe John Edwards' affair and numerous other stories broken by "tabloids" that were later verified. More ad hominen on your part.



< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 7/15/2009 10:08:54 AM >

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Attorney General May Probe Bush Torture Policy - 7/15/2009 7:51:47 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

I bolded the ad hominen for you. It isnt sufficient to claim someone is "discredited" or "seeking attention or money", you have to provide evidence to the contrary.

"The book, which hits shelves this month, also includes recollections of the steamy affair from a host of other Kennedy family intimates, including Pierre Salinger, Arthur Schlesinger, Jack Newfield, Gore Vidal, Truman Capote and Morton Downey Jr.

Author C. David Heymann said he spent nearly two decades researching the tome, even digging through old FBI and Secret Service files about the clandestine couple. Tapes of his exhaustive interviews are available at the SUNY Stony Brook library."

Now if you can show that those interviewed lied, or that the tapes of the interviews conflict with the book, go right ahead. "Tabloid nonsense" was also used to describe John Edwards' affair and numerous other stories broken by "tabloids" that were later verified. More ad hominen on your part.




No, more pure bullshit on your part.

You consistently post ridiculous claims without documentation then challenge others to prove you wrong, which I have on many different topics and saw no further response from you.

And honestly, this isn't worth my time anymore.

A simple search will show you all the people who have declared Heymann a fraud, including some of those you have erroneously listed as corroborating him.



Edited to add some documentation for you.  You know, that thing you don't seem too fond of doing for yourself.



Kennedy 'Expert' C. David Heymann: Do His J.F.K. Jr. Stories Hold ...The print run of 58000 copies of the book was shredded, and Manhattan District Attorney Robert Morganthau's office investigated Mr. Heymann for fraud. ...



C David Heymann's Bobby and Jackie: A Love Story alleges Jackie ...Jul 7, 2009 ... The Manhattan district attorney investigated Heymann for fraud over allegations that the Hutton diaries on which much of the book was based ...

Heymann says the accounts are based on the recollections of a clutch of Kennedy confidants including Gore Vidal, Truman Capote, Pierre Salinger and Arthur Schlesinger.

 But Salinger, Kennedy's press secretary, has dismissed the account as "bullshit" while Heymann's critics say he has been caught making egregious errors in previous books and even accused of fabricating material.




< Message edited by rulemylife -- 7/15/2009 8:12:17 PM >

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Attorney General May Probe Bush Torture Policy - 7/15/2009 9:24:41 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You consistently post ridiculous claims without documentation then challenge others to prove you wrong, which I have on many different topics and saw no further response from you.




The only time I stop responding is when it becomes a circle of repetition of the same false claims until its pointless to discuss. It is a tactic you are a master of.

And you still don't understand that your endless links and posts that it is circumstantial ad hominen. You have yet to post anything in denial of these specific allegations, just information (debatable at best) about prior books. Hint: try and find some first hand denials of the reporting in this book.

Until you do its just your tired game of shuck and jive.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Attorney General May Probe Bush Torture Policy - 7/15/2009 9:33:12 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		Actually, Willbuer, the bit about Salinger calling the book "bullshit" is from the article he likned to. To me that seems like "some first hand denials of the reporting in this book" that you asked for. 

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Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Attorney General May Probe Bush Torture Policy - 7/15/2009 10:00:33 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Actually, Willbuer, the bit about Salinger calling the book "bullshit" is from the article he likned to. To me that seems like "some first hand denials of the reporting in this book" that you asked for. 


Its not first hand, its the Guardian saying Salinger said it. They give no source for their statement. What specifically is he referring to? What does he say he actually said that Heymann distorted? Did Salinger say its made up? What do the Salinger interviews on file at SUNY-SB say.

That is whats needed, not a litany of links to unsourced statements.

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Attorney General May Probe Bush Torture Policy - 7/15/2009 10:09:00 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		How about you provide some proof that any of the book's assertions are true?

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Attorney General May Probe Bush Torture Policy - 7/15/2009 10:26:14 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		I know Obama wants to pass health care before the August recess.

And I don’t think he wants to be distracted right now with all this stuff about the CIA. But I will not be surprised if a special prosecutor is appointed to investigate all of this because Dick Cheney did something illegal telling the CIA not to inform Congress. That’s illegal, and there is no evidence George Bush gave Cheney any authority over the CIA.

I want to start a new topic on healthcare. Can somebody please tell me how to do it because I don’t know where the webpage is to do it.

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Attorney General May Probe Bush Torture Policy - 7/15/2009 10:31:06 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I know Obama wants to pass health care before the August recess.

And I don’t think he wants to be distracted right now with all this stuff about the CIA. But I will not be surprised if a special prosecutor is appointed to investigate all of this because Dick Cheney did something illegal telling the CIA not to inform Congress. That’s illegal, and there is no evidence George Bush gave Cheney any authority over the CIA.

I want to start a new topic on healthcare. Can somebody please tell me how to do it because I don’t know where the webpage is to do it.



Sure thing, Brain. Just click out of this thread and go to to the main page for this forum, "Politics and Religion." On the left side, about a third of the way down the page, is a button that says "New Post." Click it, and a box will open to allow you to start a new thread. Welcome to the forum, by the way. We can use you. We really have a terrible shortage of brains here.


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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Attorney General May Probe Bush Torture Policy - 7/15/2009 10:51:33 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		I actually called myself Brain because I’m interested in neurology. I’m not sure exactly where the main page is, it would have been better if you provided the link. So as you can see I’m not brainy. I’d really like to change the name to neurology but I don’t think I can without wiping out all the profile information and history and starting all over again.

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Attorney General May Probe Bush Torture Policy - 7/15/2009 10:54:40 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		http://www.collarchat.com/forumid_63/p_/tmode_1/smode_1/tt.htm

There ya go Brain


_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 80
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