Wings of change in Iran?

Wings of change in Iran? (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> Wings of change in Iran? (7/12/2009 7:43:29 PM)
On July 11, 2009, the liberal Iranian website www.khandaniha.eu published a fatwa by Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri, the most senior contemporary Shi'ite cleric. The fatwa was issued in response to a series of queries submitted to him by Iranian intellectual and cleric Mohsen Kadivar, pertaining to the legitimacy of the current Iranian government. http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD243909 "The proud people of Iran know very well exactly how authentic [the detainees'] confessions are; they are like [confessions obtained] by fascist and communist regimes. The nation knows that the false confessions and televised interviews were obtained from its imprisoned sons with threats and torture, and that their aim is to cover up the oppression and injustice, and to [present a] distorted [image] of the people's peaceful and legal protest... "The state belongs to the people. It is neither my property nor yours... When the Shah heard the voice of the people's revolution, it was already too late [for him]. It is to be hoped that the people in charge [today] will not let [themselves] reach the same situation, but will become more amenable to the nation's demands, and as soon as possible... Now what for these people?

Arpig -> RE: Wings of change in Iran? (7/12/2009 7:51:35 PM)
A very courageous stand to take in Iran at the present time. Sometimes religious conviction does fall on the side of right.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Wings of change in Iran? (7/12/2009 9:17:28 PM)
What did I miss. I don't see anything in the fatwa that says that the current regime IS illegitimate, just that any regime that violated the principles he was asked about would be illegitimate. It seems that last piece is missing before it is a "courageous stand".

Arpig -> RE: Wings of change in Iran? (7/12/2009 9:41:19 PM)
In a country like Iran, one can get arrested & tortured for objecting to an election outcome. A high level cleric saying that a government that did even some of the the things listed in the question would be illegitimate takes enormous courage. The reason is simple, the present government has very openly and undeniably done at least two of the "sins" listed quote: "5. Censoring media and information…; "6. Smearing all those who protested [following the elections]... and all those who opposed the position holders, [by calling them] 'mercenaries' and 'spies of foreign [forces]'; The cleric in question has outright stated that according to the teachings of Islam (upon which the entire government structure of the Islamic Republic of Iran rests) a government that does censor the media or smear protesters as foreign agents-provocateurs (again both of which the present government has done openly) is invalid, and this condemnation goes all the way to the top, Khameni has publicly stated that the protesters were foreign agents. This Ayatollah Montazeri has publicly declared the entire government of Iran to be illegitimate, and its orders to be null and void. Can you not see how this might be construed as somewhat dangerous given the present climate in Iran?

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Wings of change in Iran? (7/12/2009 10:58:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig In a country like Iran, one can get arrested & tortured for objecting to an election outcome. A high level cleric saying that a government that did even some of the the things listed in the question would be illegitimate takes enormous courage. The reason is simple, the present government has very openly and undeniably done at least two of the "sins" listed quote: "5. Censoring media and information…; "6. Smearing all those who protested [following the elections]... and all those who opposed the position holders, [by calling them] 'mercenaries' and 'spies of foreign [forces]'; The cleric in question has outright stated that according to the teachings of Islam (upon which the entire government structure of the Islamic Republic of Iran rests) a government that does censor the media or smear protesters as foreign agents-provocateurs (again both of which the present government has done openly) is invalid, and this condemnation goes all the way to the top, Khameni has publicly stated that the protesters were foreign agents. This Ayatollah Montazeri has publicly declared the entire government of Iran to be illegitimate, and its orders to be null and void. Can you not see how this might be construed as somewhat dangerous given the present climate in Iran? Breathing is dangerous given the present climate in Iran. It still doesnt change the fact that unless I missed something in the fatwa, he never accused the current regime of doing any of that. Its no different than someone asking Holder if "blah blah blah totally hypothetical blah blah blah" would constitute a crime, or asking the Pope if "blah blah blah totally hypothetical blah blah blah" would deserve ex-communication. My take is that its probably a totally set up piece of fluff to convince the gullible that there are "moderate Ayatollahs". (No you didnt teach me cynicism.) Perhaps the complete fatwah would prove otherwise.

Arpig -> RE: Wings of change in Iran? (7/13/2009 8:56:12 AM)
OK lets take this one step at a time, working only on what info we have in the article cited. 1) He was asked straight up if censoring the media is a sin that would invalidate a government. 2) He stated that it would invalidate a government. 3) The present government censors the media. 4) Thus he has declared the present government invalid. As to if this is a set-up or not, well time alone will tell, but personally I doubt that it is.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Wings of change in Iran? (7/13/2009 11:02:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig OK lets take this one step at a time, working only on what info we have in the article cited. 1) He was asked straight up if censoring the media is a sin that would invalidate a government. 2) He stated that it would invalidate a government. 3) The present government censors the media. 4) Thus he has declared the present government invalid. As to if this is a set-up or not, well time alone will tell, but personally I doubt that it is. The part I dont see is 3). I assume you wouldnt make it up and I only skimmed the fatwa, so I dont disagree with your "courageous" assessment.

Arpig -> RE: Wings of change in Iran? (7/13/2009 11:46:12 AM)
You do not see the present government of iran censoring the media and information? http://www.internetnews.com/government/article.php/3826586 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-ostertag/in-the-digital-iran-censo_b_220893.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6751819.stm http://imediatech.biz/china-iran-censor-web-rights-group-107.html As I said, openly and undeniably censoring

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Wings of change in Iran? (7/13/2009 2:57:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig You do not see the present government of iran censoring the media and information? http://www.internetnews.com/government/article.php/3826586 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-ostertag/in-the-digital-iran-censo_b_220893.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6751819.stm http://imediatech.biz/china-iran-censor-web-rights-group-107.html As I said, openly and undeniably censoring JFC, do you even bother to read? I didnt say there isnt censoring I said I dont see where the fucking Ayatollah admitted/accused them of censoring.

Arpig -> RE: Wings of change in Iran? (7/13/2009 4:36:49 PM)
Yes I do read, however I begin to doubt that you even bother to read your own posts. I guess you do not understand the basics of logic. The Ayatollah has no need to say any such thing. The fact (attested to by the links in my previous post) that the government of Iran is censoring the media is not in dispute. It is not something on which a religious ruling can be given. The government IS doing it, that is a fact. He was asked to rule on the legitemacy of a government that censors the media (among other things), and he has declared any government that is doing it is invalid, on the basis of Islamic law. He has thus, ipso facto, declared the present government of Iran from Khameni on down to be contrary to Islamic law, and thus not a legitimate government of the Islamic Republic. I cannot see how he could have made it any clearer. Maybe it will be clearer taken one step at a time. - He has ruled that a hypothetical government that does X, then it is illegitimate. - The government of Iran does do X, this is not in dispute, the government of Iran openly admits to "censoring the media and information". - Therefore, the government of Iran is illegitimate. I cannot make it any simpler or clearer than that.

Politesub53 -> RE: Wings of change in Iran? (7/13/2009 4:47:53 PM)
I think the Ayatollah concerned is being as critical as he dare, without naming names. From news reports I have read there is a big split between the Iranian leadership, both politicians and clerics. Edited for spelling, or lack of.

tazzygirl -> RE: Wings of change in Iran? (7/13/2009 4:49:16 PM)
Actually, he has also declared... quote: the recent presidential elections as well as the new government it created, both "illegitimate". http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joshua-gleis/religious-divisions-in-ir_b_230866.html

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Wings of change in Iran? (7/13/2009 5:47:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Yes I do read, however I begin to doubt that you even bother to read your own posts. I guess you do not understand the basics of logic. The Ayatollah has no need to say any such thing. The fact (attested to by the links in my previous post) that the government of Iran is censoring the media is not in dispute. It is not something on which a religious ruling can be given. The government IS doing it, that is a fact. He was asked to rule on the legitemacy of a government that censors the media (among other things), and he has declared any government that is doing it is invalid, on the basis of Islamic law. He has thus, ipso facto, declared the present government of Iran from Khameni on down to be contrary to Islamic law, and thus not a legitimate government of the Islamic Republic. I cannot see how he could have made it any clearer. Maybe it will be clearer taken one step at a time. - He has ruled that a hypothetical government that does X, then it is illegitimate. - The government of Iran does do X, this is not in dispute, the government of Iran openly admits to "censoring the media and information". - Therefore, the government of Iran is illegitimate. I cannot make it any simpler or clearer than that. Maybe I need to take it one step at a time for you. YOU claimed he took a courageous stand I said it was not courageous because he has said nothing that I could find (and I assume isnt there, since you havent responsed with it) that in any way criticizes the current government, he only discusses hypotheticals. I did not say the government is or isnt illegitimate, I said that HE hasnt said it. You have done nothing to refute my statement, only the bullshit strawmen about the legitimacy of the government in OUR eyes, not the Ayafuckintollahs. I cannot make it any simpler or clearer than that.

tazzygirl -> RE: Wings of change in Iran? (7/13/2009 7:32:06 PM)
quote: Deep fissures are showing as never before on a clerical style of government that has struggled for so long to paint itself as one united, single voice for Iran. A group of Iranian religious leaders, known as the Association of Researchers and Teachers of Qom, released a statement last week calling the recent presidential elections as well as the new government it created, both "illegitimate". Such a public declaration has been nearly unheard of in the three decades of the Islamic Republic's existence, and is indicative of a growing split amongst the clerical leadership -- a leadership that is critical to the legitimacy and existence of Iran's current government. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joshua-gleis/religious-divisions-in-ir_b_230866.html seems that is what they are saying... the current election, and government, is illegitimate.

Arpig -> RE: Wings of change in Iran? (7/13/2009 8:02:59 PM)
Forget it it willbeur, you just don't get the basics of logic. I have explained it to you several different ways how he did in fact say the government is illegitimate. I have not once mentioned anything about the legitimacy of the Iranian government in our eyes. I have made a point repeatedly to stress that it is in the context of Islam that the government has been declared illegitimate. It is clearly pointless to debate with you, as you apparently cannot see what is plainly in front of you.

Belittled -> RE: Wings of change in Iran? (7/13/2009 10:05:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Forget it it willbeur, you just don't get the basics of logic. I have explained it to you several different ways how he did in fact say the government is illegitimate. I have not once mentioned anything about the legitimacy of the Iranian government in our eyes. I have made a point repeatedly to stress that it is in the context of Islam that the government has been declared illegitimate. It is clearly pointless to debate with you, as you apparently cannot see what is plainly in front of you. Expecting logic out of him has proven to be a pipe dream.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Wings of change in Iran? (7/13/2009 10:47:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig I have explained it to you several different ways how he did in fact say the government is illegitimate. No you havent. Ive been waiting for it...in his words, not your convoluted interpretation. And if its there, then I already told you I agree.

Arpig -> RE: Wings of change in Iran? (7/13/2009 11:28:27 PM)
Funny Willbuer, but it seems you are the only one who cannot see it. I suggest you drop by your local college and take a refresher course in logic, as you seem utterly immune to it. Ultra simplified version 1) Ayatollah says an Islamic government that censors the media and information is illegitimate under Islamic law. (This is clearly what he said in the fatwa) 2) The present government of Iran is an Islamic Republic, its authority is based on Islamic law. (This is what the whole governmental structure of Iran is based on, so clearly the fatwa applies) 3) The present government of Iran is censoring the media and information. (Which it is doing openly and makes no effort to deny that it is doing so.) 5) Therfore it if 1, 2 & 3 are all true (which they are), the only possible conclusion is that the present government of Iran is illegitimate. The Ayatollah had no need to state it outright because he stated that any Islamic government that did the things that the present government of Iran is doing is illegitimate. To any but the most delibertaly obtuse and dense, he has clearly stated that the present government of Iran is illegitimate. You were wrong when you first said he did not state that the government of Iran was illegitimate, and you are still wrong. He said it very clearly and obviously.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Wings of change in Iran? (7/14/2009 8:13:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Funny Willbuer, but it seems you are the only one who cannot see it. I suggest you drop by your local college and take a refresher course in logic, as you seem utterly immune to it. Ultra simplified version 1) Ayatollah says an Islamic government that censors the media and information is illegitimate under Islamic law. (This is clearly what he said in the fatwa) 2) The present government of Iran is an Islamic Republic, its authority is based on Islamic law. (This is what the whole governmental structure of Iran is based on, so clearly the fatwa applies) 3) The present government of Iran is censoring the media and information. (Which it is doing openly and makes no effort to deny that it is doing so.) 5) Therfore it if 1, 2 & 3 are all true (which they are), the only possible conclusion is that the present government of Iran is illegitimate. The Ayatollah had no need to state it outright because he stated that any Islamic government that did the things that the present government of Iran is doing is illegitimate. To any but the most delibertaly obtuse and dense, he has clearly stated that the present government of Iran is illegitimate. You were wrong when you first said he did not state that the government of Iran was illegitimate, and you are still wrong. He said it very clearly and obviously. And you apparently have majored in Pretzel Logic. That is the most convoluted attempt at "deducing" that someone said something that they didnt actually say that Ive ever seen. But then youre Canadian. And btw I have a Masters in Math, so getting snarky about logic is quite entertaining.

Arpig -> RE: Wings of change in Iran? (7/14/2009 9:30:39 AM)
quote: And btw I have a Masters in Math, so getting snarky about logic is quite entertaining. Please show me the flaw(s) in my "pretzel logic". ~ Which of my assumptions is not based entirely on the facts? ~ Where have I made a conclusion not based entirely on the assumptions of the argument? While you are at it, please show me how you defend your contention that the Ayatollah's statement does not condemn the present government of Iran. quote: But then youre Canadian. You know I am tired of people appending this little gem to their posts when they cannot refute what I am saying, as if being Canadian somehow invalidates my opinions or the facts with which I back them up. Are you really saying that only an American could possibly understand? Only an American could be correct? or is it only Canadians that are unable to do either of the previous things?

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