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RE: Metaphors - 7/14/2009 1:46:02 PM

Kalista07

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Havingtrouble with the quote thingy today...Aylee you previously posted:

It is a euphemism for informal sexual education by alluding to the sexual behavior of animals to avoid explicit explanation of human behavior. Pssst. . . they are not mating cross-species.

I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse here, but i really don't get this... i mean.how exactly do 'birds' and 'bees' equate a euphemism of sex? i mean ya know....bunnies, now that i could get. But...i just can not for the life of me grasp this whole birds and bees thing.

< Message edited by Kalista07 -- 7/14/2009 1:47:19 PM >

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RE: Metaphors - 7/14/2009 1:50:06 PM

Kalista07

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Okay. . . let me see if I can explain. . .

Boondocks is about everyday stuff. We all understand everyday stuff. The secondary message is to compare the stuff going on in the Middle East to the everyday stuff that we all understand. The comparison allows a greater understanding of what is going on in the Middle East because it does so by using the illustration of everyday stuff.

Everyday stuff is the vehicle used to "shed some light" on the issues in the Middle East.

So. . . is it that you do not understand metaphors or you do not see their point or that you are likely to take them literaly?

Okay, here's my problem with the boondocks show. i do not see any correlation drawn between them and the stuff going on in the middle east. Perhaps i'm too literal or too stupid or something but we will watch an episode together and i swear to all that is holy that we must be watching two different programs.
Kali

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RE: Metaphors - 7/14/2009 1:53:15 PM

Kalista07

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Okay, here's an example of a 'classic metaphor'. i apparently am one of the few people on the face of the freaking earth who never knew this was a metaphor for other crap.
Most people are familiar with the biblical story of Adam and Eve right? Well, apparently that's a metaphor for something else.. For the past 34 years of my life i thought that was literally a true story and that somehow i was supposed to believe they began populating the earth...Yeah pretty much felt like a dumb ass when a couple of people recently looked at me like i had lost my mind when i did not get it was a metaphor.
Kali

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RE: Metaphors - 7/14/2009 1:55:23 PM

Arpig

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Slight hijack, but here goes.
The Lord of the Rings is a very long extended metaphor. For what?

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RE: Metaphors - 7/14/2009 1:57:46 PM

calamitysandra

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According to the author it is just a story, no metaphorical message intended.
However, a lot of people think they know better, and claim it is a metapher for WW2.

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RE: Metaphors - 7/14/2009 2:02:36 PM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07

Havingtrouble with the quote thingy today...Aylee you previously posted:

It is a euphemism for informal sexual education by alluding to the sexual behavior of animals to avoid explicit explanation of human behavior. Pssst. . . they are not mating cross-species.

I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse here, but i really don't get this... i mean.how exactly do 'birds' and 'bees' equate a euphemism of sex? i mean ya know....bunnies, now that i could get. But...i just can not for the life of me grasp this whole birds and bees thing.

It makes no sense to me either Kali.

Maybe through the generations something got lost in the translation, or perhaps it became one of those polite society "Victorian" euphemisms.

Here are a couple of links about it that I looked up because I was curious:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/742/whats-the-origin-of-the-phrase-the-birds-and-the-bees

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the-birds-and-the-bees.html

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RE: Metaphors - 7/14/2009 2:08:02 PM

calamitysandra

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07

Havingtrouble with the quote thingy today...Aylee you previously posted:

It is a euphemism for informal sexual education by alluding to the sexual behavior of animals to avoid explicit explanation of human behavior. Pssst. . . they are not mating cross-species.

I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse here, but i really don't get this... i mean.how exactly do 'birds' and 'bees' equate a euphemism of sex? i mean ya know....bunnies, now that i could get. But...i just can not for the life of me grasp this whole birds and bees thing.

Angelica could be on to something with the suspicion that there might have been a loss in translation.

In German it is "Flowers and Bees" which makes a good deal more sense, looking at the pollination as a metaphor for impregnation.

But "birds and bees"? No idea.

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RE: Metaphors - 7/14/2009 2:18:08 PM

sappatoti

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07
... I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse here, but i really don't get this... i mean.how exactly do 'birds' and 'bees' equate a euphemism of sex? i mean ya know....bunnies, now that i could get. But...i just can not for the life of me grasp this whole birds and bees thing.

I cannot speak for any place else but when I was in the 8th grade (back in the early '70s), the biology of sex was taught and explained with how birds mated to produce offspring and how the bees pollinated plants to show plant reproductive biology. Because of this literal teaching of reproductive biology in my own life, I have always known that any reference to "the birds and the bees" were meant for sex.

I have no idea what the origin of the phrase or metaphor actually is. This post just points out how I have always viewed its origin.

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RE: Metaphors - 7/14/2009 2:19:23 PM

Arpig

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quote:

According to the author it is just a story, no metaphorical message intended.
However, a lot of people think they know better, and claim it is a metapher for WW2.

I can no longer remeber the source of my information, I read it some 25 years ago. At the time I read several Tolkein biographies, a collection of his letters, several commentaries on the books by Christopher Tolkein, as well as essays by C.S. Lewis and letters by other Inkspots. basically anything and everything I could find relating to Tolkein. Anyway, the impression I came away with was that it is a metaphor for evils of modern industrialism and totalitarianism, which is why he viewed the final chapter "The Cleansing of the Shire" to be essential to the whole story. I do know that the concepts underlying middle earth started in the letters he wrote home to his wife from the trenches in WWI.
I have not come across the article or interview where he denies it is any form of metaphor but am now interested and will start looking for it. Thanks calamitysandra.

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RE: Metaphors - 7/14/2009 2:21:55 PM

calamitysandra

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I have not come across the article or interview where he denies it is any form of metaphor but am now interested and will start looking for it. Thanks calamitysandra.

And as I have put it out there, I will see if I can find again where I found it the first time. Some sleep might help though.

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RE: Metaphors - 7/14/2009 2:32:48 PM

Arpig

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No problemo, sleep away. I do enjoy the hunt as well, one comes across some really interesting things while trying find something else.

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RE: Metaphors - 7/14/2009 2:34:54 PM

calamitysandra

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Found it! Now I only have the German, but I hope you believe my translation.

It is in his preamble to the revised version from 1966:

...
„Was die tiefe Bedeutung oder ›Botschaft‹ des Buches angeht, so hat es nach Absicht des Autors keine. Es ist weder allegorisch, noch hat es irgendeinen aktuellen Bezug.
...
Doch die Allegorie in allen ihren Formen verabscheue ich von Herzen, und zwar schon immer, seit ich alt und argwöhnisch genug bin, ihr Vorhandensein zu bemerken.
...

Basically he is stating that he just wanted to write a long, engaging story, and that there are no metaphors or allegories.

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RE: Metaphors - 7/14/2009 2:46:20 PM

igor2003

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Fast Reply to no one in general.

I find myself very much in a similar frame of mind as the OP.

In high school I took a course called "Great Books" thinking that because I enjoyed reading that this class would be a breeze. We had requierd reading in such books as David Copperfield and The Red Badge of Courage among several others. In class, then, the teacher would disect each book into "what the author was trying to say". I spent most of the year thinking, "What a load of crap!" I couldn't figure out why people think there has to be a hidden meaning behind the story. What makes them think that the author didn't write the story simply for the enjoyment of writing the story and for the readers enjoyment of a good tale?

The same thing goes with movies. When I watch a movie I want to watch it for it being a tale told well. I don't want to sit there and try to figure out whether the writer was trying to pass on some hidden meaning. If he or she wants to say something, then they should just come out and say it.

Personally, I have to feel sorry for people that can't just sit and enjoy a good book, story, or movie for the story itself instead of feeling some inner need to cypher out what the hidden meaning is.

I'm not saying that some stories AREN'T written as a metaphor for something, but if it doesn't have a good story line then I'm not going to watch it, and even if I know there is a hidden metaphor somewhere I'm not going to worry myself about it.

I will go on to say that I DO understand metaphors used in daily life to give a better picture or idea of what a person is trying to say. I use them myself. I just don't agree that there are hidden metaphors in as much of every-day stories and movies as what some people try to say.

There is no doubt that there are going to be parts of stories or movies that can be seen and compared as being metaphors for other things, but I think that more often than not these things will be unintentional on the part of the writer or author.

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RE: Metaphors - 7/14/2009 3:53:03 PM

Kalista07

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i'm really not trying to offend anyone here. i'm simply trying to see if anyone can help me gain some insight as to why i can not seem to grasp metaphors. i do not enjoy not 'getting' something that the rest of society gets.. It makes me once again feel less than and inadequate..Something you would think i would get used to feeling...
i don't know if this is some kind of learning disability, if it's something i didn't learn, if it's some skill i missed or what.
Kali

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RE: Metaphors - 7/14/2009 4:56:45 PM

sappatoti

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In my experience, you are not born to understand metaphors. As igor has pointed out, a well written story, stage play, or screen script will stand on its own without the need to understand any metaphorical content it may be portraying.

I have experienced many things in my life and enjoyed them just for their literal being, only later to find out there was some sort of metaphorical meaning behind their creation. If the metaphor was interesting or important enough for me to want or need to understand, I'd go back and learn what I could about how the metaphor came to be. If not... c'est la vie.

I do not believe there is anything innate about understanding metaphors. I believe it to be a learned ability which comes about through various life experiences. Can you learn to understand metaphors? If it is important enough for you to do so, you ask questions about why whatever it may be is considered a metaphor and try to understand it. If you cannot grasp the idea behind it, maybe doing more research online or in a library on the subject might be useful. If all that extra work isn't worth it to you, then I would venture a guess that understanding that metaphor is going to be vital in your life.

In any event, enjoy things as you see them... understand them as you know them... and don't worry about whether or not you may be "in the know."

edited to fix a major brain fart

< Message edited by sappatoti -- 7/14/2009 4:57:56 PM >

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RE: Metaphors - 7/14/2009 6:49:13 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07

Okay, here's an example of a 'classic metaphor'. i apparently am one of the few people on the face of the freaking earth who never knew this was a metaphor for other crap.
Most people are familiar with the biblical story of Adam and Eve right? Well, apparently that's a metaphor for something else.. For the past 34 years of my life i thought that was literally a true story and that somehow i was supposed to believe they began populating the earth...Yeah pretty much felt like a dumb ass when a couple of people recently looked at me like i had lost my mind when i did not get it was a metaphor.
Kali

Really? Hell, come and sit next to me then, and we can feel dumb together. Because that's the first time I ever heard the "Eden" myth was metaphorical. But then I'm not religious, so I never paid much attention to it in the first place.

What the hell is it a metaphor for, then? Anyone know? I'm stumped here.

But anyway, forget about that. Kalli, do you find that you tend to be a literal, linear thinker? What's your own personal communication style like, if i may ask?

And for that matter.... do you enjoy comedies? You seem to have a sense of humor here on the forums. Do you "get" the humor in comedy films, or do you usually get jokes, for that matter? I'm just trying to get a sense of whether it's just metaphors, or abstract thought in general that roadblocks you.

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RE: Metaphors - 7/14/2009 7:16:21 PM

peachgirl

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Kali,
sometimes I don't get them either. for me there are two reasons...first, sometimes I'm just to lazy to try and decipher the metaphor, because it is a lot of work for me. and the reason for that, which may apply to you, is that I get really bogged down in the literal aspect of what's being said. I'm the "say what you mean and mean what you say" type of person. what helps me is if I take as step back and try and look at the big picture. what does the story say to me on a gut level? what is the first thing that pops in my head? usually that is a good starting point.

as far as movies go, there are always visual cues that help me...the infamous "Christlike Figure" or the "Deus Ex Machina".

I think it's just a matter of finding what cues/keys work for you.

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RE: Metaphors - 7/14/2009 11:03:11 PM

Arpig

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Thanks calamity. I do know that he wrote LoTR on his publishers insistance, he didn't want to he wanted to publish the Silmarillion, but the publishers wanted a sequel to The Hobbit. I will trust your translation, well I'll likely run it through babblefish just for fun, but in case you hadn't noticed I'm sort of a Tolkein geek from a lomg ways back. I have found references to him denying that it was an allegory, and the metaphor story I read, wherever it was, made a lot of sense especially in the light of his other writings such as Farmer Gilles of Ham and The Adventures of Tom Bombadil,,,,and to the rest of you all, sorry for the hijack, we will now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

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RE: Metaphors - 7/14/2009 11:40:35 PM

ShellyD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07

i'm really not trying to offend anyone here. i'm simply trying to see if anyone can help me gain some insight as to why i can not seem to grasp metaphors. i do not enjoy not 'getting' something that the rest of society gets.. It makes me once again feel less than and inadequate..Something you would think i would get used to feeling...
i don't know if this is some kind of learning disability, if it's something i didn't learn, if it's some skill i missed or what.
Kali

I am not directing this at you Kali, it's just that I have been researching Aspergers recently as my middle grandchild has been diagnosed with it. In trying to understand how to approach communication, your comments have rung a little bell. It comes down to the person with aspergers sees things literally, and comments we make in everyday ststements need to have a direct meaning and metaphors are confusing. An example of if asked if we can go to the park, 'soon darling' is not enough, their mind will go at a thousand miles a minute to try and work out 'soon' it is better to say 15 minutes than soon. Hmm not sure I made any sense but that is a simplistic way to see the meaning behind what we say to a person with aspergers.

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Post #: 39

RE: Metaphors - 7/15/2009 12:03:27 AM

Arpig

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that sort of issue is not restricted to Asperger's alone, it is common to many autistic spectrum disorders. My son (PDD/NOS) has a hard time with "soon" or "in a little while", but give him a concrete time frame (in 15 minutes, at 5 o'clock, etc) and he is fine...however when that concrete time frame has elapsed he will be there waiting for you to fulfill whatever it was you put off.

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Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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