RE: Is "I like you too much to hurt you" a cop out? (Full Version)

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LadyConstanze -> RE: Is "I like you too much to hurt you" a cop out? (7/21/2009 1:39:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

What I have heard of often across the orientation board is that some tops and doms start to feel like they can't do SM or other things once romantic love begins. I've sat with several tops who have been left because that isn't what their former bottom/sub signed up for when they stopped being able to do SM any more because 'they loved them too much'.

I always told these folks that they need to do some serious reflection about what they think SM is and why they do it if they are finding it incompatible with love or even just really liking someone.


I find it hard to understand that people can completely separate and leave SM outside a relationship, though I can understand that certain things are not for each and every relationship, because the dynamic might be different. There's stuff I have done with previous partners because it felt right, then with another person it wouldn't feel right. Just like I might have enjoyed some vanilla activity with one bf, with another one I prefer something else. A lot depends on the chemistry 2 people have, a good relationship is not just one person getting out what they want, it's both getting fulfillment and a hell lot of compromises.





Missykink -> RE: Is "I like you too much to hurt you" a cop out? (7/21/2009 2:02:03 PM)

I found that I really hesitated with my partner at 1st because most of my previous play partners had been just that and I did'nt have feelings for them like I do with him.  I found it hard to get myself comfortable with it at first but once it started its just got better and better.  It's because I love him so much that I can do the things I do to him and not worry.[:D][:D][:D]



Vendaval -> RE: Is "I like you too much to hurt you" a cop out? (7/21/2009 2:08:23 PM)

Not because I liked someone too much but if they wanted to play hard and had some serious previous injuries, that does cause hesitation on the intensity levels. I become much more cautious.



Mistressbinature -> RE: Is "I like you too much to hurt you" a cop out? (7/23/2009 1:50:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha


Femdoms, have you ever honestly LIKED a man too much, so that you could not share your sadistic desires with him because of that affection for him (but you could gladly and happily hurt someone else)?

You know the cliche about when a vanilla woman says to a guy who wants a relationship with her, "Oh I like you too much for that, I don't want to ruin our friendship" -- or variations of that phrase -- the cliche being it's just a cop out way of her saying she isn't attracted to him that way....(whether or not it's ever true or not) -- is the femdom version of this the phrase, "I like you too much to hurt you, let's just be friends" -- meaning, she just doesn't have the guts to say, "I am not attracted to you but I like to hang out" (or, the more cruel version, "I don't like you that way but I like the gifts you give me.")

I can't say I have ever liked a man too much to not hurt him.  Bondage, S&M and all that stuff are tied into affeciton/lust for me. But is this true for others?

Any femdoms ever honestly find themselves unable to hurt/torment/do S&M with a guy because they cared too much for him?

Akasha



I believe that statement to be true, this is why I will never allow myself to have those types of feelings for someone I am dominating






MadameMarque -> RE: Is "I like you too much to hurt you" a cop out? (7/24/2009 12:12:06 PM)

I see two different questions.  One is, whether telling someone, 'I like you too much to hurt you,' is basically saying, 'I don't like you that way.'  I don't consider 'I don't like you that way' to be an evasive answer; it could be quite true.  However, 'I like you too much to hurt you,' implies, of course, that you don't like so much those you do enjoy hurting.  I suppose for pathological masochistics, that would be a dream date.

The other is whether I would feel sadistic toward some partners, but not feel that for someone else, because 'I like them too much.'

The difference in my urge to be sadistic to one (consenting) person or another, and especially, in what specific way, is all about the individual and our chemistry.  There are individuals to whom I'm attracted whom I would love to have in tow on a leash and torture them in the company of others in the scene.  Those are people who would sink into that role, and feel themselves. 

There are individuals to whom I'm attracted, to whom I would not display my dominance in front of outsiders (anyone outside our household), at all, because they are alpha personalities, and I wouldn't invite others to think of them as subordinant, by displaying them that way. 

There are those for whom submission and S&M are right, but not humiliation.  Others for whom the intimacy of humiliation makes them melt.

Of course, it's not correct for me to say, 'I like you too much to hurt you,' because I may be crazy about someone I love to hurt.  But!  it is true that I might adore someone and not feel the same sadomasochistic urges toward them, as for another.  I don't think this in itself, would determine my having stronger feelings or love for one vs another.



"If his love is to be called perverse, then let it be so, for maybe love is too great to be normal, too intense to be sane."
 
- from a commentary on the Japanese film, Gekko no Sasayaki, aka Moonlight Whispers, http://imdb.com/title/tt0208178/usercomments



MadameMarque -> RE: Is "I like you too much to hurt you" a cop out? (7/24/2009 12:22:32 PM)

...I want to add, you're touching on the well-worn question, is the sadist-masochist relationship a hostile one, as it so appears to be?

To that, I, personally, would say, the desire of the other to be understood by me as their counterpart and to be treated certain ways, pulls at my corresponding desire to take them and go deep.  I observe that for a person with masochistic urges, to be without someone who understands and wants them, even wants to prey upon them, from the sadistic side, is genuine suffering. 



aidan -> RE: Is "I like you too much to hurt you" a cop out? (7/24/2009 12:49:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameMarque

...I want to add, you're touching on the well-worn question, is the sadist-masochist relationship a hostile one, as it so appears to be?

To that, I, personally, would say, the desire of the other to be understood by me as their counterpart and to be treated certain ways, pulls at my corresponding desire to take them and go deep.  I observe that for a person with masochistic urges, to be without someone who understands and wants them, even wants to prey upon them, from the sadistic side, is genuine suffering. 


Yes, see, this gets at the crux of the issue.

This quote here:
quote:


I see two different questions.  One is, whether telling someone, 'I like you too much to hurt you,' is basically saying, 'I don't like you that way.'  I don't consider 'I don't like you that way' to be an evasive answer; it could be quite true.


This is a sidestep. That's addressing a different issue. As you say later in your post, "I like you too much to hurt you" has embedded in it the implication of liking somebody already. Essentially, one statement ("I don't like you that way") is in regard to whether or not there is any kind of sexual attraction or romantic feelings at all. The other statement ("I like you too much to hurt you") assumes a positive alternative to the first statement, and is dealing with how those feelings are manifested and expressed.

Now I'll admit that the second statement is a less painful reality than somebody simply not reciprocating feelings of attraction and desire. However it comes to the same conclusion: the termination of the relationship.

Also, in the second half of your first post, you say that the kinds sadistic urges you have and activities you engage in vary from person to person. This is a completely reasonable and nuanced stance to take. But, again, we're missing the issue at hand. Implicit in that statement is the assumption that you do like the people you're partnering with and that you do these things because you like them, not in spite of it.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Is "I like you too much to hurt you" a cop out? (7/24/2009 2:31:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Missykink

I found that I really hesitated with my partner at 1st because most of my previous play partners had been just that and I did'nt have feelings for them like I do with him.  I found it hard to get myself comfortable with it at first but once it started its just got better and better.  It's because I love him so much that I can do the things I do to him and not worry.[:D][:D][:D]


I wouldn't be with a person if I don't have enough feelings for, simple as that.

I could play harder and I know he would take it because he loves me, but I know he would just endure it for me, not my thing. He knows I sometimes want to play harder than he can take it, so he has no issue if I let my sadism out on somebody who can take it and actually enjoys it. We're both very happy this way.

I do tend to worry about my partner, because to be my partner I need to love a person, anything else would not be enough for me, I don't go for 2nd best. In turn I take my partner's limit into consideration. It works for me.



thetammyjo -> RE: Is "I like you too much to hurt you" a cop out? (7/25/2009 1:56:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

What I have heard of often across the orientation board is that some tops and doms start to feel like they can't do SM or other things once romantic love begins. I've sat with several tops who have been left because that isn't what their former bottom/sub signed up for when they stopped being able to do SM any more because 'they loved them too much'.

I always told these folks that they need to do some serious reflection about what they think SM is and why they do it if they are finding it incompatible with love or even just really liking someone.


I find it hard to understand that people can completely separate and leave SM outside a relationship, though I can understand that certain things are not for each and every relationship, because the dynamic might be different. There's stuff I have done with previous partners because it felt right, then with another person it wouldn't feel right. Just like I might have enjoyed some vanilla activity with one bf, with another one I prefer something else. A lot depends on the chemistry 2 people have, a good relationship is not just one person getting out what they want, it's both getting fulfillment and a hell lot of compromises.





After talking to a fair number of folks who feel this way -- "I can't hurt you because I love you" -- I think I have an idea of what may be going on with them. I am NOT a therapist so this is just my opinion based on conversations and observations over several years.

They feel somewhere inside that they are hurting or harming someone with SM, that hurt or harm is an innate part of SM. They also believe that you should not hurt or harm the ones you love. Thus when they fall in love they are tormented inside.

Now for me I can separate hurt and harm into two different categories. I can hurt someone intentionally, I do it all the time, hurt lasts for a while then fades, it triggers chemical reactions that some folks find pleasant, some do not, and the consequences can be positive or negative.

I can harm someone but that has long term consequences that are negative. Sometimes this is on purpose but most of the time is an accident.

I promise to never harm my subs and slaves on purpose -- I'm not god, I can't promise not to make mistakes that result in accident.

I think a person who feels they can't do SM when they are in love has not reached that point inside him/herself where they understand the difference between SM and harm, between positives and negatives. I think it may also have to do with the level of experience and self-awareness as well since most tops I know with this concern and barrier are relatively young in terms of years consciously doing BDSM.



thetammyjo -> RE: Is "I like you too much to hurt you" a cop out? (7/25/2009 1:58:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameMarque

...I want to add, you're touching on the well-worn question, is the sadist-masochist relationship a hostile one, as it so appears to be?

To that, I, personally, would say, the desire of the other to be understood by me as their counterpart and to be treated certain ways, pulls at my corresponding desire to take them and go deep.  I observe that for a person with masochistic urges, to be without someone who understands and wants them, even wants to prey upon them, from the sadistic side, is genuine suffering. 


I think this is when you start to see the differences between BDSM and kink and mental illness that are defined as clinical sadism and masochism. Sadly the terms overlap in common usage and thus a lot of confusion is born.



cloudboy -> RE: Is "I like you too much to hurt you" a cop out? (7/25/2009 10:07:51 PM)

quote:

Sadly the terms overlap in common usage and thus a lot of confusion is born.


Maybe the Republicans have drawn up a chart about it.

If a Domme knows her partner, she knows the limits and boundaries -- its rudimentary human relations. Most subs don't get mad at their domme's for pushing.



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