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British musician and wife, die by assisted suicide toge... - 7/14/2009 5:03:55 PM

Vendaval

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I can certainly understand their reasoning under such dire circumstances.

What are your thoughts on the matter? And what are the differences between UK and US laws on assisted suicide?

"Hand-in-hand British musician, wife commit suicide"

By JILL LAWLESS, Associated Press Writer Jill Lawless, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 33 mins ago

"LONDON – He spent his life conducting world-renowned orchestras, but was almost blind and growing deaf — the music he loved increasingly out of reach. His wife of 54 years had been diagnosed with terminal cancer. So Edward and Joan Downes decided to die together.

Downes — Sir Edward since he was knighted by Queen Elizabeth II in 1991 — and his wife ended their lives last week at a Zurich clinic run by the assisted suicide group Dignitas. They drank a small amount of clear liquid and died hand-in-hand, their two adult children by their side. He was 85 and she was 74.

The deaths were a poignant coda to Edward Downes' illustrious musical career, and have reignited a debate in Britain about whether people should be able to help ailing loved ones end their lives.

The couple's children said Tuesday that they died "peacefully and under circumstances of their own choosing" on Friday.

"After 54 happy years together, they decided to end their own lives rather than continue to struggle with serious health problems," said a statement from the couple's son and daughter, Caractacus and Boudicca."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090714/ap_on_re_eu/eu_britain_obit_downes

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RE: British musician and wife, die by assisted suicide ... - 7/14/2009 9:15:33 PM

subfever

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I say thumbs up to this couple, and thumbs down to any government that seeks overriding power in similar situations.

Power to the people.

(in reply to Vendaval)

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RE: British musician and wife, die by assisted suicide ... - 7/14/2009 9:23:51 PM

Arpig

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I think that a person should be able to choose the time and manner of their passing. Suicide should NOT be illegal, it is my life and if I choose to end it then that should be all there is to it.

However in order for assisted suicide to be possible and avoid people using it to dispose of unwanted elderly relatives there would have to be some very strict conditions of competancy and proof of the desire to die.

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RE: British musician and wife, die by assisted suicide ... - 7/14/2009 9:27:37 PM

subfever

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I think that a person should be able to choose the time and manner of their passing. Suicide should NOT be illegal, it is my life and if I choose to end it then that should be all there is to it.

However in order for assisted suicide to be possible and avoid people using it to dispose of unwanted elderly relatives there would have to be some very strict conditions of competancy and proof of the desire to die.

Absolutely.

Too bad Big Pharma/Health Care, and silly religious dogma will stand in the way.

(in reply to Arpig)

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RE: British musician and wife, die by assisted suicide ... - 7/15/2009 1:27:02 AM

susie

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When I was diagnosed with my brain tumour last year my family were told that I had only 6 months to live. They have told me now that they looked into Dignitas as they did not want me to suffer. Luckily a brilliant neurosurgeon was able to operate but if things had been different it is certainly an option we would have taken.

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RE: British musician and wife, die by assisted suicide ... - 7/15/2009 1:37:33 AM

Arpig

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Damned glad it didn't come to that susie.

~ edited to fix a really dumb typo

< Message edited by Arpig -- 7/15/2009 1:38:30 AM >

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RE: British musician and wife, die by assisted suicide ... - 7/15/2009 3:29:10 AM

LadyEllen

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Caractacus and Boudicca? Presumably then this has been planned for a very long time - because no court in the UK will try still less convict any defendants on charges of assisting suicide who have such names. This is the charge threatened for these two for travelling with and facilitating their parents' suicide; of late the usual procedure is for them to be arrested on return to the UK and for a police investigation to begin. The evidence is then handed to the Crown Prosecution Service (and often it goes to ministerial level) for a decision of whether to prosecute - of late the decision has been to not proceed as it would not be in the public interest (ie they know it would rouse the rabble who agree with the idea of euthanasia and would rather avoid the whole subject).

I'd like to hear from the religious ninnies who usually trot out some sanctimonious guff about the God given nature of life and our incapacity to choose in that light, answer one question at this time - as these two have broken God's law, are they now both in hell being tormented? And perhaps a second question - if that torment is something to be avoided, then how is torment alike in life a good thing?

We shall have to face all this more and more - an aging population which in times past would have died much earlier is being kept alive longer and longer by medical advances until they suffer some long term and terrible declines into abject misery perpetuated by medicine. On whichever measure one uses (apart from the sanctimonious nonsense derived from the Bible - which is otherwise OK with killing it seems) it is not acceptable to prolong suffering.

E

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RE: British musician and wife, die by assisted suicide ... - 7/15/2009 2:41:10 PM

Vendaval

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Arpig, you are right about the safeguards needed to protect the elderly from being disposed of while still letting them die with dignity.

Susie, I am very glad you are still here to share life with us.

Lady E, agree with you whole heartedly about the sanctimonious types trying to beat their values into other people.

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(in reply to Arpig)

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RE: British musician and wife, die by assisted suicide ... - 7/15/2009 7:49:11 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

a statement from the couple's son and daughter, Caractacus and Boudicca."

Hippies.

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RE: British musician and wife, die by assisted suicide ... - 7/16/2009 7:56:59 AM

MistressWolfen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

However in order for assisted suicide to be possible and avoid people using it to dispose of unwanted elderly relatives there would have to be some very strict conditions of competancy and proof of the desire to die.

very poignant but I am a supporter of assisted suicide..however and on a lighter note we of the north have had this system in place for thousands of years...it involves an ice flow and an Elder too weak to fend off their loving children. My adult children threaten philosophy and I with this traditional Elders death when we "act up" *lol*

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RE: British musician and wife, die by assisted suicide ... - 7/16/2009 8:18:58 AM

Lucylastic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

a statement from the couple's son and daughter, Caractacus and Boudicca."

Hippies.

Why does naming your kids after an ancient King and Queen mean they are hippies?
just wondering?

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RE: British musician and wife, die by assisted suicide ... - 7/16/2009 1:16:00 PM

FullCircle

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What makes this controversial for me is the fact the man himself was not terminally ill but could not face a life without his wife in it.

That seems like a kind of mental illness to me and perhaps given time he'd feel differently about it?

There is this very fine line where we end up letting anyone kill themselves for whatever reason they like, I think at least we should be consistent and not stop people from jumping of buildings if total self determination is what the greater society wants.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 7/16/2009 1:22:25 PM >

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RE: British musician and wife, die by assisted suicide ... - 7/16/2009 6:33:06 PM

subfever

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The man was an 85 year-old lifetime orchestra conductor who was almost blind and also going deaf. His wife of 54 years was dying of cancer.

They died on their own terms, peacefully, and with the blessings of their own children.

How anyone can see "mental illness" here is beyond me. How anyone can rationalize that if society allows these two commit suicide, then it should also allow any bridge-jumper the same unobstructed opportunity is also beyond me.

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RE: British musician and wife, die by assisted suicide ... - 7/16/2009 8:07:05 PM

lazarus1983

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This situation is truly a thing of beauty. And I am proud that there are some places in this world that's civilized enough to let it happen.

If a person wants to take their own life, that is ultimately up to them. It's none of my business. There is very little more repulsive than people reaching in to another's life and taking away their freedom of choice.

That's why I sneer at the building jumpers. If a person really wanted to kill themselves, and not just cry for attention, they can do something as simple as put a bag on their head and go to sleep. If you feel like you need to talk to someone, then go call a hotline. Don't tie up emergency personnel's precious time with your antics.

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RE: British musician and wife, die by assisted suicide ... - 7/16/2009 8:31:28 PM

marie2

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General Reply

I'm all for this kind of thing in cases of terminal illness. And in this particular case, it's kind of sweet that they died together, but I think it's going to get far too sticky if they start letting healthy people do this for whatever reason. Ok the husband was pretty damn old at 85, but still, he could have lived another 5 or 10 years.

What about the next deaf and blind person who wants to die? What if he/she is only 25 and is depressed because he/she just lost his/her sight in an accident and just decides he/she doesn't want to live any longer? Is it legal for a 85 yr old, but not a 25 yr old? What about a healthy 50 yr old who wants to die with their terminally ill grown child? What about the person who wants to die after losing a spouse in an accident? What about this and what about that? Where do the lines get drawn?

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RE: British musician and wife, die by assisted suicide ... - 7/16/2009 9:42:26 PM

lazarus1983

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

General Reply

I'm all for this kind of thing in cases of terminal illness. And in this particular case, it's kind of sweet that they died together, but I think it's going to get far too sticky if they start letting healthy people do this for whatever reason. Ok the husband was pretty damn old at 85, but still, he could have lived another 5 or 10 years.

What about the next deaf and blind person who wants to die? What if he/she is only 25 and is depressed because he/she just lost his/her sight in an accident and just decides he/she doesn't want to live any longer? Is it legal for a 85 yr old, but not a 25 yr old? What about a healthy 50 yr old who wants to die with their terminally ill grown child? What about the person who wants to die after losing a spouse in an accident? What about this and what about that? Where do the lines get drawn?

Who is "they" in "but I think it's going to get far too sticky if they start letting healthy people do this for whatever reason."

The government? Should a bureaucrat decide for us if our reasons to want to die are adequate? A duly appointed health official? Do we need to fill out forms, go to a Secretary of State's office, and politely ask if we can die? Do we need to stand there with hat in hand and pie charts and an essay describing why we think we deserve the right to end our lives?

All those instances that you just mentioned? The blind, the deaf, the 85 year old...if they want to die, that's their choice. I have absolutely no right to tell them otherwise, I have no right to judge their decisions and their situation and tell them that's not adequate enough.

And once again, if someone REALLY wants to kill themself, they will. Something as simple as a plastic bag is all you need.

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RE: British musician and wife, die by assisted suicide ... - 7/16/2009 10:26:29 PM

Arpig

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I think I am with lazarus on this one. I think we all should have the right to end our lives when and how we see fit. I realise (probably better than most given my mental illness) that in many instances a suicide attempt is based in mental illness, and the person very often is glad to have been stopped. However I don't think that fact should be used to prevent all suicides from happening. It is my life, mine to live or not. The problem with having some sort of competence limitation on a suicide is that to most people the mere fact of wanting to die is proof of a lack of competence.

That being said, the whole thing is just way to open to abuse to be left totally unregulated. Assisted suicide should be regulated because it is basically an exception to the murder statutes (it is effectively 1st degree murder....most definately premeditated). There must be some pretty solid evidence that those to be assisted are truely wish to die and are competant to make that decision. Their reasons for wanting to die are pretty much irrelevant.

What sort of limitations should be placed on the right to die in a manner of one's own choosing? Damned if I know, but the potential for abuse of a wide open, anything goes approach scares me, so I am opposed to that approach, but have nothing else to offer in its stead.

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RE: British musician and wife, die by assisted suicide ... - 7/16/2009 10:41:03 PM

lazarus1983

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I think I am with lazarus on this one. I think we all should have the right to end our lives when and how we see fit. I realise (probably better than most given my mental illness) that in many instances a suicide attempt is based in mental illness, and the person very often is glad to have been stopped.

I don't care that you have a mental illness that I don't have, and I could never ever comprehend or understand what it's like to live with. I'm telling YOU that you can't choose to end your life if that illness gets too much. I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about, but because I don't agree with it, I'm not allowing you to do what you want to do! Quick, stop him! Make it illegal! He's doing something I don't want him to do!

Yep, that's the definition of retarded to me.

I agree with you, in that there needs to be some regulation when it comes to assisted suicide. But in general, trying to stop people from killing themselves when they really want to will be a bigger waste of time than the war on drugs.

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RE: British musician and wife, die by assisted suicide ... - 7/16/2009 11:02:57 PM

DanaYielding

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wow, religious ninnies? really? Consider me one of those, and let me break your stereotype. A pro lifer through and through, i am. But this ideal of being able to end your own life does not fall into the catagory. Pro lifers base their interpretation on the fact that unborn children have no say in their termination. Many pro lifers are also FOR the death penalty, how can that be you might ask. Those who choose, choose to indulge in a crime that is punishable by death, have made a choice, and if/when they are caught they knew the possible punishment. Also those who consider suicide to end a tortured existence also make a choice and as a religious ninnie, i have no problem with it so long as they are certain that it is a terminal situation or at the very least a situation that no human should have to bare, such as constant agony and pain, with no alleviation in sight. Those decisions are made by a person so as to, not only relieve themselves of pain and agony, but also to not be such a burden on others, significant or otherwise. Choosing to end one's own life can be dignified. It allows family to gather and pay tribute, it relieves the burden of care both financially and emotionally, and it is in the end (sorry for the pun) an acceptable termination. The God I know, does not wish that His children suffer.

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RE: British musician and wife, die by assisted suicide ... - 7/16/2009 11:08:58 PM

Lashra

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I am all for it. I think if someone is terminally ill and suffering, or so incapacitated that they cannot live their lives as they wish to, they should be allow to die with dignity.

I am currently watching my father, a stroke victim, waste away. His mind is gone, his sight is gone and he cannot walk anymore, his left arm is useless. He has asked me several times to please shoot him. If assisted suicide were legal in this country I know he would certainly prefer to go that route then to keep suffering as he does on a daily basis. To him his current condition is a living HELL.

When my time comes if I am in such a state I hope that assisted suicide is legal, if not I hope that my hand is at least steady enough to pull the trigger.

~Lashra

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