Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Refusal to serve.. whats next for the Armed Forces


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Refusal to serve.. whats next for the Armed Forces Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 4 [5]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Refusal to serve.. whats next for the Armed Forces - 7/27/2009 7:52:58 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

No one wants to die, but, they sign up, they serve with honor and dignity.



Yeah sounds good in theory but how many times have soldiers from various countries said: "we don't have a clue why we're here". And how many times do the media and government spin a yarn about the perceived threat from a supposed hostile nation. Soldiers from countless wars have come back feeling that they've had their strings pulled - duped into fighting people who they've found are not really that different from themselves. So I can't get too excited about someone breaking an oath when the other side of the bargain isn't always straight up.

Equally - it's easy to talk about dignity and honour but when push comes to shove and you're staring death in the face I'd imagine that all principles such as liberty/honour/dignity go right out of the window. I can't say for sure of course but I can't really hold it against someone when he puts his life above the principles that other people are demanding he adheres to.

If it helps - I suppose I'm from a military family too - though I've never really thought of it like that - more that two blokes decided they wanted to serve in the army/air force - and one of them spent his working life in the forces. Doesn't mean I have to agree with them or find war anything other than futile (I'm not convinced that 'war is a continuation of politics by other means').

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Refusal to serve.. whats next for the Armed Forces - 7/30/2009 5:35:41 PM   
spokanesub85


Posts: 46
Joined: 7/27/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

If he really wants to get out, he can start drinking heavily. It gets you out everytime, with a nice vacation at a rehab. . Note: I stress drinking not drugs. Drugs will get you a general discharge, which doesn't look good. But hell, a drinking problem will get sympathy and an honorable. He's grasping at straws with this bullshit, and he should know better. I'm guessing he wants to keep his commission without having to go to Afghanistan. Like I said, a drinking problem is his best bet.


A drinking problem get you out of the Army?  Bullshit, not by itself.  I had a drinking problem for 4 of the 5 years I was in.

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Refusal to serve.. whats next for the Armed Forces - 7/30/2009 6:53:41 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

No one wants to die, but, they sign up, they serve with honor and dignity.



Yeah sounds good in theory but how many times have soldiers from various countries said: "we don't have a clue why we're here". And how many times do the media and government spin a yarn about the perceived threat from a supposed hostile nation. Soldiers from countless wars have come back feeling that they've had their strings pulled - duped into fighting people who they've found are not really that different from themselves. So I can't get too excited about someone breaking an oath when the other side of the bargain isn't always straight up.

Equally - it's easy to talk about dignity and honour but when push comes to shove and you're staring death in the face I'd imagine that all principles such as liberty/honour/dignity go right out of the window. I can't say for sure of course but I can't really hold it against someone when he puts his life above the principles that other people are demanding he adheres to.

If it helps - I suppose I'm from a military family too - though I've never really thought of it like that - more that two blokes decided they wanted to serve in the army/air force - and one of them spent his working life in the forces. Doesn't mean I have to agree with them or find war anything other than futile (I'm not convinced that 'war is a continuation of politics by other means').


and how have people like you treated these soldiers who were duped. many were treated like they had the plague. which is sad, they did their duty, and got shitted on. by the people they thought they were protecting.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Refusal to serve.. whats next for the Armed Forces - 7/30/2009 8:45:17 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spokanesub85

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

If he really wants to get out, he can start drinking heavily. It gets you out everytime, with a nice vacation at a rehab. . Note: I stress drinking not drugs. Drugs will get you a general discharge, which doesn't look good. But hell, a drinking problem will get sympathy and an honorable. He's grasping at straws with this bullshit, and he should know better. I'm guessing he wants to keep his commission without having to go to Afghanistan. Like I said, a drinking problem is his best bet.


A drinking problem get you out of the Army?  Bullshit, not by itself.  I had a drinking problem for 4 of the 5 years I was in.

I got out due to drinking. It was a general under honorable, not an honorable. And a general is not that big a deal. Many medical discharges are general under honorable. Drugs get you an other than honorable unless you are extremely good at kissing someone's ass.

_____________________________

What man is a man who does not make his world better?


Soldiers died for your right to be ungrateful.

(in reply to spokanesub85)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Refusal to serve.. whats next for the Armed Forces - 7/30/2009 9:03:12 PM   
spokanesub85


Posts: 46
Joined: 7/27/2009
Status: offline
I guess it boils down to when did you get chaptered out due to drinking.  Anything past 2003 it would have to be pretty severe alcoholism or multiple legal problems related to drinking to get you booted.  They hardly kick people out of the Army for shit these days.  And this guy was a reservist, they really don't keep that close of tabs on you in the reserves.  Had he a bad enough drinking problem to get kicked out, it would not be the same as for a lower enlisted man, keep in mind that he is a field-grade officer.

(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Refusal to serve.. whats next for the Armed Forces - 7/30/2009 9:08:24 PM   
FangsNfeet


Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline
I think it's fair to say that a good 90% of the people who voted for Obama don't care where the hell he was born. If nothing else, Obama is a "voted in" natural born citizen. This could be good news for the Governator as people are careing less about a mans birth place.

_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Refusal to serve.. whats next for the Armed Forces - 7/30/2009 9:18:54 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
The laws concerning who may hold the position as President would have to be changed to allow the Govinator to hold office. No laws had to be changed for Obama... regardless of how much sqawking noise they wish to make. His mother is american... nothing else matters.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to FangsNfeet)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Refusal to serve.. whats next for the Armed Forces - 7/30/2009 10:00:09 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline
quote:

This wouldn't even be an issue if Obammy would just release his records, he's spending an awful lot of time & money hiding his past.
Ummm he did release his records. As far as I know he hasn't spent a dime or a minute hiding his past. Care to elaborate?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090728/ap_on_re_us/us_obama_birth_certificate
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32180625/ns/politics-white_house
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/06/obama-birth.html

I could post more, but I think the point has been established.


_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!


Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Refusal to serve.. whats next for the Armed Forces - 7/30/2009 11:49:34 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
The fact is he was born in Hawai'i which makes him a natural born citizen no matter what. To claim otherwise requires ignoring clear cut evidence or claiming a decades long conspiracy that at the very least controlled both Honolulu newspapers, the Hawaiian state government, Occidental College. Columbia University, Harvard University, the University of Chicago and the US department of State under at least 4 different administrations.

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Refusal to serve.. whats next for the Armed Forces - 7/30/2009 11:51:50 PM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

I think it's fair to say that a good 90% of the people who voted for Obama don't care where the hell he was born. If nothing else, Obama is a "voted in" natural born citizen. This could be good news for the Governator as people are careing less about a mans birth place.


Hey I'd vote for Arnie in a second. I've seen him in action (outside his movies of course) and I have no problems with the guy from what I've seen so far. In my opinion, if the repubs want back into the White House....they need an amendment to let Arnold in. I'd put a "Presinator" into the White House any day.


_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to FangsNfeet)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Refusal to serve.. whats next for the Armed Forces - 7/31/2009 3:01:16 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

I think it's fair to say that a good 90% of the people who voted for Obama don't care where the hell he was born. If nothing else, Obama is a "voted in" natural born citizen. This could be good news for the Governator as people are careing less about a mans birth place.


Hey I'd vote for Arnie in a second. I've seen him in action (outside his movies of course) and I have no problems with the guy from what I've seen so far. In my opinion, if the repubs want back into the White House....they need an amendment to let Arnold in. I'd put a "Presinator" into the White House any day.



Youve seen him in action and thinks Republicans would want him in the WH? He's been a fucking disaster in Sacramento, unable to move Democrats an inch without first bringing the state to near bankruptcy. He suffered a few defeats in his first few months of office and then rolled up and played dead, preferring to be popular and enjoy the political spotlight instead of fight for the platform he campaigned on. If he hadn't replaced such a total incompetent he would have been recalled himself.

(in reply to Loki45)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Refusal to serve.. whats next for the Armed Forces - 7/31/2009 6:50:31 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The fact is he was born in Hawai'i which makes him a natural born citizen no matter what. To claim otherwise requires ignoring clear cut evidence or claiming a decades long conspiracy that at the very least controlled both Honolulu newspapers, the Hawaiian state government, Occidental College. Columbia University, Harvard University, the University of Chicago and the US department of State under at least 4 different administrations.


His mother is a natural born citizen. Doesnt matter where he was born.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Refusal to serve.. whats next for the Armed Forces - 7/31/2009 9:03:41 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
I wonder if we would be having the same conversation if McCain had won the election...he is NOT a "Natural Born Citizen" I find it hilarious that some would argue Obama not a natural born citizen when he clearly is and McCain is not.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Refusal to serve.. whats next for the Armed Forces - 7/31/2009 11:29:34 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:


Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., and his advisers are doing their best to brush aside questions — raised in the liberal blogosphere — about whether he is qualified under the Constitution to be president. But many legal scholars and government lawyers say it's a serious question with no clear answer.

The problem arises from a phrase in the Constitution setting out who is eligible to be president. Article II, which also specifies that a person must be at least 35 years old, says "No person except a natural born Citizen" can be president.

Sen. McCain is undoubtedly a citizen. He was born on Aug. 29, 1936, in the Panama Canal Zone, and Congress has specifically provided that anyone born there of U.S. parents, as he was, is a citizen. Indeed, the general rule is that anyone born of U.S. parents outside the United States is a citizen.

But is John McCain a natural born citizen? The Constitution does not define the term further, and legal scholars say the notes of the Constitution's drafters shed little light on what they meant. It seems clear only that the founders wanted to make certain that whoever was president would be loyal to the U.S. alone and not to some other country. But the term "natural born citizen," many scholars say, was not in common use at the time the Constitution was written.

Sen. McCain's supporters draw some comfort from a law passed in 1790 by the first Congress. It provided that the children of US citizens born outside the US "shall be considered as natural born citizens." The law is no longer in effect, but it provides some guidance on what the founders had in mind at the time of the Constitution.

And some legal experts find it hard to believe the founders would have considered their own children, if born overseas, to be ineligible for the presidency.

"If John and Abigail Adams were sent to France on a diplomatic mission, I find it inconceivable that they would have thought their children were not natural born citizens," said Professor John Parry of Lewis and Clark Law School.

Issue has come up before
This issue has been raised before in the presidential campaigns of Barry Goldwater, born in Arizona territory not the United States, and George Romney, born in Mexico. But it was never resolved.

In 1964, the Supreme Court seemed to say, without deciding, that "natural born" meant born inside the United States. In an opinion on an unrelated issue, the court observed, "The rights of citizenship of the native born and of the naturalized person are of the same dignity and are coextensive. The only difference drawn by the Constitution is that only the 'natural born' citizen is eligible to be President." But that language is not legally binding, and the Supreme Court has never ruled on what "natural born" means.

The ambiguity has stirred concern for decades. In 1987, New York Times columnist William Safire suggested amending the Constitution. "The 'natural born' phrase unfairly burdens children of Americans born abroad ... because it casts a shadow across any candidacy: if elected, the President-elect would surely face a challenge on the born-abroad impediment," he wrote.

Sen. McCain has the support of Ted Olson, the former U.S. solicitor general. "The plain meaning of 'natural born citizen' includes persons who become citizens of this nation 'naturally,' that is, by virtue of their birth to parents who are citizens, particularly when the birth takes place on territory occupied and controlled by the United States, in Senator McCain's case, a U.S. military base in the Panama Canal Zone," Olson says in a statement. But that is by no means a universally held view.

U.S. 'never had sovereignty' over Canal Zone
Besides, many legal scholars say the Canal Zone never was sovereign U.S. territory. In a February 1978 speech to the nation on the Panama Canal Treaty, heavily vetted by government lawyers, President Carter said, "We have never had sovereignty over it. We have only had the right to use it. The US Supreme Court and previous American presidents have repeatedly acknowledged the sovereignty of Panama over the Canal Zone."

It's not clear, either, who would have the legal right to sue if McCain were elected president. One expert on federal procedure said any taxpayer aggrieved by an action of a President McCain would have standing to challenge his qualifications.

Legal scholars generally agree on one thing, however. If this issue did produce a legal challenge, the courts would be very reluctant to invalidate the results of an election, especially given such an uncertain legal landscape.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23415028/

The SC wont define. He was born to US citizens. Im starting to believe the SC is a joke afraid of making a stand on issues.



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Refusal to serve.. whats next for the Armed Forces - 7/31/2009 11:58:46 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
Love to hear from some of the "Obama not a natural born citizen" posters about McCain and his birth outside the US...Talk about hypocritical...

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Refusal to serve.. whats next for the Armed Forces - 8/13/2009 8:35:15 PM   
Rhodes85


Posts: 445
Joined: 11/15/2008
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Status: offline
Hmm, I have to admit the Major citing obamas 'questionable' citizenship as a reason not to deploy is laughable. I would expect something more intelligent from a senior officer. Though if he wanted to avoid being deployed he should have questioned the legality of the US having invaded Afghanistan to begin with. Given that technically a soldier is only required to follow a lawful order. In simple terms a soldier cannot be legally ordered to commit or participate in any form, in an illegal activity. It could be argued that such an invasion  (and this particularly applies to Iraq moreso than Afghanistan given the grey area in the reason for invading Afghanistan) was in violation of the Geneva and Hague conventions which expressly forbid any unprovoked attack on a soverign nation as well as any attack against any nation for any reason without a declaration of war. In simple terms he could have argued that he couldn't be ordered to participate in the war given that its very existance was a result of an illegal act. Would he have been successful? Technically if he kept at it long enough and brought enough legal bs into it, eventually probably yes. But that would have taken years to decades. The smart thing to do would have been to resign. Personally I wouldn't want this Major anywhere near me in a combat situation as I wouldn't trust his judgement or his competency if he is stupid enough to use the 'obama not being an american' excuse. So good riddence.

That being said, that insulting statement made to holly was one of the most hurtful and insulting things that could have been said to her. To say nothing of the sacrifice the soldier himself made. You should be very ashamed of yourself for what you said to her. and holly, I am very sorry for your loss and want you to know that I, and many others do greatly appreciate the sacrifice he made for his country.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 96
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 3 4 [5]
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Refusal to serve.. whats next for the Armed Forces Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 4 [5]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.078