RE: a voice of reason (Full Version)

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SteelofUtah -> RE: a voice of reason (7/15/2009 10:58:10 AM)


I truly love the tangents that can happen on a thread and the assumptions that get made. It’s my own fault I only left you will so much information. I really don’t want to go into the entirety of their NON-Dynamic.

So they were an Online Hook-up, but one that was realistically forged over a 7 year period of time. The met on a Chat room role-playing type site and over the past 7 years have foraged a interesting cute little relationship. She left her Husband, not for the man she is with now but because she needed to leave her husband. Things are stressful for them he left a lot to come and be with her and she is fighting to get custody of a child back and well the story is REALLY LONG.

So the tow of them have said they want to put a Physical Power Dynamic on HOLD for right now.
To put a few things that have come up at ease please read the following and apply the answer that goes with what you have posted and adjust accordingly.
  • He is VERY Talkative, almost as talkative as I am and if you know me you know that means he’s a chatter box.

  • She is NOT shy at all very Proper and Demure and Elegant and I admire much of her integrity and life philosophy. She doesn’t know how to tell a joke and finds her own thoughts funny as hell which I find refreshing.

  • They were at our home and he had been hanging out with us for a few hours filling us in on what was what and how the dynamic (the one that isn’t one) worked before she got there and then we hung out and just talked until around midnight.

  • Her demeanor isn’t that she is puffing up or defending or trying to assert that I am a submissive I am just not YOUR submissive but rather she was saying things about how she is submissive but then the interactions between the two show that there is the sideways thing going on. I suspected that he was feeling guilty that she is currently supporting him and thus he is trying to be as good to her as he can but it just came off as he was the submissive one and she the Dominant.

Mind you I am not calling them Fakes or that they are somehow not Twue Lifestylers but it is important to me to state I was confused at the dynamic and wondered is anyone else had ever come across it.

I do know that due to the roleplay aspect of their relationship before defining it BDSM much of their fiews come from the Anne Rice Fantasies and the Role Playing aspect and perhaps as has been said there is a Bedroom Dynamic that is in place that just doesn’t translate in the outside the bedroom world and I would not know about that. What I do know is the words that both of them used and what they were trying to get across by using those words and what they showed interpersonally while in our livingroom.

Again mine is not to claim who is and who isn’t Weal or Twue, mine is a Curiosity of how the dynamic actually works and perhaps what I am missing, because otherwise what I see is a couple who likes kink and wants to call it Master/slave and if that is the case I also don’t find anything wrong with that it is just different from what I do.


And That’s Okay too.

Steel



caelestis -> RE: a voice of reason (7/15/2009 11:00:43 AM)

I think there could possibly be two different sides to this. Either, as most others seem to think, we don't see their entire private lives so she could be a good sub in her own way when others weren't around, or, there might be a situation like I had with an old roommate.

After it came out in the open about my chosen lifestyle she insisted that she was also a submissive.  Just one who needed someone to break her before it would really show.  Upon spending more time with her this seemed more and more ludicrous.  She was lacking any sort of motivation, was messy, and seemed absolutely oblivious to how her actions affected others.  I never saw any act of deference when she had a "Dominant" boyfriend, though I saw quite a few acts of her taking a more Dominant role.  She didn't even seem submissive in bed and was always ordering her partner to do things to or for her.  The only reason I know this is because my appartment has incredibly thin walls and she refused to "censor" herself, even though some of us had to be up at 5 am the next day.

My question always was, where did she get the mindset that she was submissive?  Was it because she just wanted kinky sex or to say she had been broken? Or upon hearing about my experiances decided it was something she liked the sounds of?  I guess I'll never know, because we are no longer in contact.  Thankfully.

Edit for spelling.



sirsholly -> RE: "I'm Submissive DAMNIT!!!" (7/15/2009 11:13:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

I have seen it.  I admire submissives who demonstrate that dominance in their everyday life with their work, their capabilities in getting things done, their children even but not when they apply it to their dominant.

I don't know about the phrasing here. What you are describing here is "competence" not "dominance".

whereas i am competent, i am also dominate in many aspects of my day to day life, as are quite a few other submissives i know.



Lashra -> RE: "I'm Submissive DAMNIT!!!" (7/15/2009 11:46:26 AM)

quote:

I am relatively successful in life. Any man who to whom I have become submissive was my match or over, and it was that which inspires me to follow.
Wanting to please and submit is part of that. But some people, at least my dominants were never cuckolded by the fact I am capable and not afraid to show it. Behind closed doors OR at his will was another matter entirely. And in my opinion if the dominant is comfortable with the face his (generic label) submissive shows, shouldn't that be the only thing that counts?
Brat..? some men like that.


This is exactly what I was shooting for. Yes I do appreciate a submissive who is just as strong, intelligent and successful as myself or more so. I am comfortable enough in my own skin to appreciate these traits in a submissive. I fully realize that no sub should just drop to their knees for just anyone, as I've stated on these boards many times. But what gets me are what I will call the "extreme" subs who no one can command, no one will ever be "dominant" enough for the ones who are truly domineering all the while moaning they cannot find that perfect "one".

As for brats I own one, the aforementioned male sub. He knows the rules and stays within the boundaries, he certainly does not want to disappoint me. But some subs do take it too far with their behavior and I have to question, is it the sub or the owner?

Just my opinions,
~Lashra




NihilusZero -> RE: "I'm Submissive DAMNIT!!!" (7/15/2009 11:48:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

whereas i am competent, i am also dominate in many aspects of my day to day life, as are quite a few other submissives i know.

Which I won't argue with.

The examples CD gave, however, were those of competence, not dominance.



Rainfire -> RE: "I'm Submissive DAMNIT!!!" (7/15/2009 11:50:18 AM)

Oh shush, holly, you said you'd never tell!

Steel, based on the additional info, then my response would be changed to say "maybe it's exactly as they say and since the dynamic is on hold, she's had to take a stronger (not necessarily Dominant) role due to current situations." Lumus will tell you that I am quite strong in many areas, having been a single mother raising 3 teenagers, one with autism, run my own business and household and taking care of family issues at the same time. Ok, so I was a Domme for a lot of that but initially, I was a sub first when I was working 80 hours a week to support the family. I could still be strong for the family and get what needed to be done taken care of and sub for my first Master at the same time.

However, my ex will tell you that I am quite the bossy bitch and strict, demanding and have high expectations for my family. Is that a bad thing? [sm=lol.gif]



NihilusZero -> RE: "I'm Submissive DAMNIT!!!" (7/15/2009 11:54:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

I fully realize that no sub should just drop to their knees for just anyone, as I've stated on these boards many times.

I'm not suggesting you were trying to imply such, but this was a great sentence to follow up with:

It begs to be said that what keeps a sub from dropping to their knees for just anyone isn't the presence of some subtle, inner dominance in them; it's the presence of sensibility, common sense and intellectual competence.

It is possible to even be the dreaded doormat slave (by choice, no less) and still have those qualities.



daintydimples -> RE: "I'm Submissive DAMNIT!!!" (7/15/2009 12:27:08 PM)

Great thread!

This I totally agree with:

quote:

I do not want to be stronger willed than a man, and therefore, I choose a dom that fits in within that framework. That man has to be superior to me in intelligence, wisdom, and strength of character. Why would I challenge such a man? Once I see he is indeed superior in those regards, I am happy to recognize them as such, and I respect him deeply.
It's just that my "on" personality that I have to use to get thru my day to day dealings with clients, etc., is a necessary evil. But at the end of the day, I want nothing more than to hand over the leash to someone who knows exactly what to do with it.
j

ORIGINAL: janiebelle




And I would add, not only am I happy to hand over the leash, I am very aware that I do better as a person if I have a dominant in my life. I don't need one, I can handle my life very competently on my own. But I am a much more well rounded individual when I have that.

Also, I very much agree with some comments made in terms of what things look like and what things really are. Looks can and do deceive. I don't go for the super alpha macho type doms. I prefer a quieter, more self assured, more laid back sort of individual. So if you saw me and my dominant in public, you could easily be confused about who is who. That does not mean there is any confusion in MY mind.

And lastly, this is perhaps just my own experience, but I know right away if a dominant male is stronger than me. There is NO juggling for power. I've learned that if there is a power struggle in the beginning, the man is just not strong enough for me, b/c in the end, I'll win.

As always, just my opinions/experiences.





nephandi -> RE: "I'm Submissive DAMNIT!!!" (7/15/2009 12:40:15 PM)

Greetings

quote:

Have you ever come across the person who likes the idea of what a sub means to them but thier actions don't quite gel with the Idea of a Power Dynamic as we most often see them represented.


When I was Aswad's slave, I still had the personality I have always had, I have strong opinions, and I voice them, I am aggressive, and yes I guess you can say that I have a rather dominant personality. Now as a slave Aswad allowed me to be that way, and he appreciated me for who I am. But many did see me as rather, unsubmissive, and I often myself to got sad because I was not like the other slaves. I got to decide much in the relationship, it was just that Aswad had final say and I considered myself his slave.

Even before I was a slave I often got comments that I acted in ways unusual, or inappropriate for a submissive. I am to day Aswad's free Companion, still submissive to him, and I am still acting in rather un submissive ways at times. I would however not say that makes be false, or that our relationship is just a game. I might be aggressive and outspoken, but I am still submissive in my heart.

I wish you well



Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: "I'm Submissive DAMNIT!!!" (7/15/2009 12:42:50 PM)

This is the classic Personality vs. D/s Relationship Dynamic debate. People select their orientations for different reasons. The only way to discover the reasons involved is to ask and talk about it.

Observation of a persons personality and their interaction with their partner, you can pretty much figure it out for yourself. Regardless of what labels people slap on themselves and their relationship.



TEMPERANCE -> RE: "I'm Submissive DAMNIT!!!" (7/15/2009 1:01:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah


Have you ever come across the person who likes the idea of what a sub means to them but thier actions don't quite gel with the Idea of a Power Dynamic as we most often see them represented.



Yes.... me! 

Many people i know do not peg me as being submissive, though that is exactly how i identify.  In everyday life im a pretty independant, confident, secure, dominant woman.... this carries through when im socialising too.... even when im socialising within the scene; heck i even regularly top as a sadist and coordinate sub hunts here in the UK.  That doesnt take away from the fact that to one person i am completely submissive.... just because most others do not get to share that side of me, does not make me any less of a submissive than the one who is in role 24/7.



quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

Do you think it's just Fantasy Bullshit or do you think there is a Valid Power Dynamic in which she is submissive and yet very dominating in the relationship?

Steel


Maybe they dont have a 24/7 D/s dynamic thing going on?  In which case when they are not in that 'role' they can be what ever they like.... so no i do not think its fantasy bullshit as you so ellequently put it.... it is very real... just not full on all the time.... and if it works for them great.....   maybe she is just sexually submissive......  in which case it wouldnt carry through in every aspect of their life... and in her eye does not take away from how she, and one would assume he, see then dynamics of their relationship.........   




Prinsexx -> RE: "I'm Submissive DAMNIT!!!" (7/15/2009 1:12:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

I made new friends here in this Religious Mormon Mecca.

They moved in above us.

They are like us......... Kinda.

Steel

What the hell is a Mormon sub?
Shall I google it?



CreativeDominant -> RE: "I'm Submissive DAMNIT!!!" (7/15/2009 2:24:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

I have seen it.  I admire submissives who demonstrate that dominance in their everyday life with their work, their capabilities in getting things done, their children even but not when they apply it to their dominant.

I don't know about the phrasing here. What you are describing here is "competence" not "dominance".

Strangely, I think this is the issue with much of the innards of this topic we're discussing.

People will tend to criticize themselves and their submission as still inherently negative if the general prsumption is that competence and submissiveness cannot exist in unison.

And then, other people will start criticizing other subs/slaves who aren't concerned with "dominance" because the criticizer mistakenly presumes they are too 'weak' in their submission because of not choosing to force that aura of "dominance".

Ironically, subs who have an emotional fixation on the need to display "dominance" (because they cannot divorce the idea of the word as synonymous to competence) are less competent as being genuinely submissive...as in, expecting someone to act as they say they are...which brings us right back to Steel's point.

You may be right, Nihilus...given what I was speaking of, the word "competence" does play out better. 
That said, I have to admit that I also admire those submissive women who do display dominant traits outside of my dynamic with them...leading a munch and delegating tasks for various undertakings of the D/s group involved in the munch, being a supervisor at work, teaching a group of children and maintaining order/discipline within that group...and who then, within their D/s dynamic can "put that away" and become what is for them their more natural/desired/fun/yearned-for state of submission.



allthatjaz -> RE: a voice of reason (7/15/2009 2:27:23 PM)

There are so many different levels in this. From the out and out slave to the submissives that submit when they feel like it. So long as the partner is happy then no harm is done. I always smile when I meet the submissive boss with her very un-confidant Dominant partner but then hey ho... if they are happy then who am I to pass judgment?
When people see me out, they see me as a very confident person but I am never disrespectful, pushy or bossy to my man in any way. My confidence could be mistaken for me being the Dominant but then Steve is also very confident, so that really confuses people.



DomImus -> RE: "I'm Submissive DAMNIT!!!" (7/15/2009 2:33:27 PM)

When I was still attending munches and play parties I saw people all the time whose appearance and behavior seemed to suggest one thing whilst their admitted d/s orientation was another. It just means you can't assume. One funny story... I attended a munch once at the big local dungeon/play space with a married couple who are friends of mine and both dominant. She was dressed in business attire having come straight from work and he and I were dressed in what I would call 'dungeon casual'. All three of us are tall individuals. The looks we got throughout the night were fun as people tried to decipher what orientations and dynamics were at play in our little trio. Interesting enough, the event was promoted as a newbie night meet and greet sort of thing and none of the folks who were clearly regulars in the crowd bothered to introduce themselves and find out for themselves.



DesFIP -> RE: "I'm Submissive DAMNIT!!!" (7/15/2009 3:00:49 PM)

He's just moved there, he's out of work, they're both under a lot of stress and have a lot to adapt to. Plus he told you they have put the dynamic on hold until they can get everything better arranged. And for what it's worth, this is how it was between us when he first moved up. It took a good six months before we could reassert the dynamic at all.

So why should she act submissive if they aren't now in a D/s relationship? She shouldn't act submissive towards someone who does not know feel able to be dominant. She should act the way she normally does in egalitarian relationships, which is not submissively. Moreover she may not now be getting enough play to help her headspace. For lots of us, submission is not solely a mental thing, if it were we would have stayed online only. If she needs play every few weeks, or if he does, or both, and they aren't getting it then of course they don't act the way they do when things go smoothly.

Was she ordering him about? Telling him to get her more coffee? Or was she just acting like any equal partner? Which right now they are.



Prinsexx -> RE: "I'm Submissive DAMNIT!!!" (7/15/2009 3:13:09 PM)

I think it is a widely held misconception about slaves and submissives that we are slavish.
I think that the resilience required in being an s type is often misunderstood.
It takes enormous tenacity, resilience, stamina, fortitude and commitment to be a willing submissive and indeed the more saditic, controlling and assertive a dominant is the more resiliance is required.
Combining resiliance with the empathy skills necessary for 'strong' intuitive service is a peculiar balance.
Personally I 'use' my submission as an escape from the world, as a change of mindset, as a way of relinquishing the power I have in the world.
This may show up as being a powerful and assertive woman but then I am not submitting to the world: I am submitting to a Master.




littlesarbonn -> RE: "I'm Submissive DAMNIT!!!" (7/15/2009 3:49:58 PM)

I've been a member of several femdom organizations that seem to be run completely by submissives. It's kind of frustrating sometimes because the dominant women show up at functions and want everything taken care of, so they leave the details to the submissives, which is fine, but then get upset because they start to notice that all of the administrative functions keep being taken care of by submissives. This starts all sorts of problems in these organizations because then these dominant women leave the organization, and they start spouting to the rest of the community that so and so organization is run by submissive men, and then you find fewer women wanting to get involved.

What's really ironic, or unique, about these situations is that so often there is such a desire for female leadership in these organizations, but very rarely does one come along who is interested in making it happen. And when one does, she shows up long enough to get her little core of people that she wants in her life, and then she starts to filter out of the group, taking the submissives that she was attracted to in the beginning, setting up the same dyanamic that was there before she came along.



DavanKael -> RE: a voice of reason (7/15/2009 3:59:55 PM)

Sure.  Any of my partners (With the exception of one toward whom I am on the D-side of the kneel, though we do more of a sub-leaning switchey dance he and I) would tell you that I can be a hell-on-wheels pit-bull of a little bitch while still preferring and being absolutely devoted to bieng predominantly submissive to my partner.  Even my ex-, who decried power dynamics, whined and moaned when they went away as I grew more and more displeased. 
Being submissive doesn't make you a meek little thing, it doesn't even mean that you don't appear quite the opposite to some folks.  What it does mean, imo, is a core way of functioning and way of bieng that is fundamental. 
Running out soon so keeping this short but hopefully that makes sense. 
And, howdy, Steel, greetings to you and andi.  :>
  Davan



CaringandReal -> RE: "I'm Submissive DAMNIT!!!" (7/15/2009 4:00:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

I fully realize that no sub should just drop to their knees for just anyone, as I've stated on these boards many times.

I'm not suggesting you were trying to imply such, but this was a great sentence to follow up with:

It begs to be said that what keeps a sub from dropping to their knees for just anyone isn't the presence of some subtle, inner dominance in them; it's the presence of sensibility, common sense and intellectual competence.

It is possible to even be the dreaded doormat slave (by choice, no less) and still have those qualities.



True.

There seems to be a certain type of person that you see a lot on the 'webs who has emotional issues. These people, if they find out about bdsm, sometimes identify as doormats whether they are submissive or not, and their ill behavior, which many people find unappealing, gives normal doormats a bad rep.



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