RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (Full Version)

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Antheia -> RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (7/18/2009 7:04:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

But everyone should know that sentences begin with capital letters and end with periods.  And anyone over age eight should know real versus not real words.



Ok let's try this again. Some people who have dyslexia see the words as being right, be that capitals or what have you, when they are not right. No spell check or anything else can make them see it correctly.

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/dyslexia/dyslexia.htm

Here is a webpage that may help you understand this a bit better, if you chose to view it .
Have a good day
A.





slavekal -> RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (7/18/2009 9:20:58 AM)

I have never in my life met a person who would look at a lower case letter and see it as a capital, or who saw nonexistent punctuation marks.  Most people can see these things just fine.  I have helped people with their writing.  When I pointed to a captital letter that should be lower case, or vice versa, the writer SAW it just fine.  And they could give no rationale for why they did it that way.  It's just a matter of internalizing the editor.  Any person of reasonable intelligence, as long as there is no medical problem, can capitalize and punctuate.  And they can learn proper word usage and grammar at a middle school level.




mnottertail -> RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (7/18/2009 9:27:16 AM)

Perforce, we find ourselves in a miasma so putrid, it shall defy the very description of its nature.

Orson Welles




slavekal -> RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (7/18/2009 9:30:53 AM)

Now that there is some fancy writin'!




TurboJugend -> RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (7/18/2009 9:30:54 AM)

And what did Orson mean?
He could write...but could he communicate ? :P




slavekal -> RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (7/18/2009 9:35:51 AM)

Very good point.  Sometimes fancy writing is just jerking off on paper.  Even when I write professional papers, I try to keep the language as straightforward as possible.  You have to consider your audience.  You don't use jargon if people who are reading your stuff don't speak jargon.




DesFIP -> RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (7/18/2009 9:37:19 AM)

I see no reason to look up someone's profile in order to comment about a post on spelling/grammar.

On another site, a man got hassled a lot about his nearly incomprehensible posts until he added a signature line about his learning disabilities. His posts are still difficult in the extreme but because he tells people he has a problem, they will make an attempt to read them. And other posters will rewrite them for him, simply because he explains ahead of time that this is an existing problem.

Which brings me to nephandi, although I like her, I have given up reading her posts because of her dyslexia and her English as a second language. Not because she has these difficulties that impact her writing in English in a text only medium but because she believes she does not have to mention this, that instead we should all look up other posters' profiles in case they mention any problem. I don't believe that's my job, I do think it is theirs. I am not a mind reader, and I rarely see the need to check a profile before responding. Quite frankly I don't have the time and I abhor people who expect me to mind read and know there is a problem.

Frequently I put the incomprehensible ones on ignore. If they can't be bothered to do whatever they can to improve their writing skills including spellcheck and grammar check and mentioning problems, then I can't be bothered reading their posts.




TurboJugend -> RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (7/18/2009 9:39:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

Very good point.  Sometimes fancy writing is just jerking off on paper.  Even when I write professional papers, I try to keep the language as straightforward as possible.  You have to consider your audience.  You don't use jargon if people who are reading your stuff don't speak jargon.


Indeed. I write a lott of instructions at work. It is very hard to let people know what is in your head.
Thank god we can ad pictures to make things clear. Less words, more pics.




slavekal -> RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (7/18/2009 9:45:49 AM)

And the reverse too.  I recently put together some furniture for Ms. Mlicious.  The instructions were all pics and no words.  I had a hard time with that.  I got the job done, but it took me a while.




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (7/18/2009 9:57:34 AM)

quote:

I have never in my life met a person who would look at a lower case letter and see it as a capital, or who saw nonexistent punctuation marks.


Then you've never seen my son, a moderate/severe dyslexic, who sees letters inverted and sees capital letters as a completely different alphabet. (In other words, 'A' and 'a' are not different versions of the same letter, to him, but completely different letters) so if he learned a word first with a capital letter, it will -always- have a capital letter... but if he learned it first with a lower-case letter, he won't put in a capital letter, because, to him, that is a completely DIFFERENT word.

Even more interesting is my companion, who has a similar issue with both capitalization and -fonts-... so to her, capital letters and lower case letters are a different alphabet... but so are words written in, say, Times New Roman versus the same word written in Arial... and even words written in bold-face or italic don't look like the same word to her as the word written in normal font.

My son's situation is further complicated by whether he learned the word from reading or from a spelling list. If he learned it from reading, it is automatically attached to whatever punctuation immediately followed it, whether that punctuation is correct for its current use or not. For example, the previous word, 'not' a the end of the other sentence, had he learned it from reading the word, would now and forever more be 'not.', regardless of when he used it, and it is a major effort to re-train himself in more effective grammar and spelling techniques. Not to mention that he routinely reverses and inverts letters (not the same thing... reversal is swapping the letters around. Inversion is flipping the letter upside down, so 'b' becomes 'p' and 'd' becomes 'g', or 's' becomes 'z'.)

I am -extremely- picky about grammar and spelling. I grew up with mild/moderate dyslexia and discalculia (flipping numbers) and my parents pushed me and pushed me to learn, look things up, and make certain of the words I used. Even now, when I get tired, I still both invert and reverse letters and numbers, more in reading than in writing, but it's always been that way for me, and is why I am a -mild/moderate- dyslexic and not a moderate/severe dyslexic like my son or my companion. I think my son does a lot better because we genuinely pushed him to work very hard at his language, but his dyslexia is much more severe than mine. We always told him that it would be hard, but if he was willing to let people see his command of communication, even though his spelling was poor, that people would see that he wasn't ignorant or uneducated... just challenged. So far, that has been true. I hope that there are very few people like the author of the OP who would castigate someone for attempting to use language to its best advantage just because they couldn't necessarily get the letters in the right order.

Dame Calla




TurboJugend -> RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (7/18/2009 9:57:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

And the reverse too.  I recently put together some furniture for Ms. Mlicious.  The instructions were all pics and no words.  I had a hard time with that.  I got the job done, but it took me a while.


also true....
It is cheap for a company not to use words when they sell across borders. No need to translate.
(but shitty instructions too..lol)




slavekal -> RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (7/18/2009 10:14:50 AM)

Calla, your child is an extreme case.  Probably one in well over a hundred thousand.  And easily identifiable.  The VAST majority of people know a capital A from a lower case.  It's like most things.  99 percent of the time when we are not doing a thing right, it's because we are not really trying.  But there will always be that unique person who has a true, nearly insurmountable disability.  I know a lot of people who say AX instead of ASK.  They can say BASKETBALL just fine, a word that has ASK right in the middle of it, so they have the ability to say ASK.  Crackhead Bob from the Howard Stern Show couldn't pronounce most words if you put a gun to his head. 




Termyn8or -> RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (7/18/2009 10:38:49 AM)

FR

This problem is not unique to CM, nor even the internet. I am talking about court documents and such.

I used to be terrible at it, but over the years I learned, mostly by observing what others wrote and emulating it. On rare occasions I have actually called my Mother to find out how something is correctly phrased or how it is spelled.

The problem is that there is less and less to emulate. As our educational system in this country continues it's downward spiral, I think it will only get worse. Now it becomes an issue of whether one can be held responsible for the quality of education they recieved.

In other words, learning is a cure for stupidity, but ignorance is terminal. As such, I invite all the literary minded around here to correct me if I make an error. Sometimes I am in doubt and have to let a statement stand, but something just doesn't look right. Actually the quality of my education improved greatly once I left school. That is why I don't write like the dropout that I am. I was terrible at one time, never heard of a paragraph and of course thought the comma to be a universal punctuate. (for example, is punctuate a word or should I have said 'punctuation mark ?)

A friend of mine is trying out a new artform, and looking at his initial attempts he had a caracature that looked like Snoopy. I warned him about where to sell such a thing because he could be sued. He is dyslexic, and responded "Well, I'll just have to desnoopify it". In many people's minds that is a valid word for the simple reason that everyone understood what he said. Engineers and scientists routinely make up new words, so why can't we ? In that light, where do we draw the line ?

Constructive criticism is probably the best thing. Hopefully they take it the right way, considering that they are trying to express themselves and you are trying to help.

T




slavekal -> RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (7/18/2009 11:03:01 AM)

Using a word like "desnoopify" in casual conversation is whimsical and clever.  Not the same thing as just not knowing that no and know are not the same word.




TurboJugend -> RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (7/18/2009 11:10:15 AM)

quote:

The problem is that there is less and less to emulate. As our educational system in this country continues it's downward spiral, I think it will only get worse.


language alsways has changed also without looking at education.
Shakespeare had a different English then we use now. The internet and also music will change how the youth talks and writes.
I am not sure how other countries do it...but I know Germany and The Netherlands....release books ( the goverment) with new words and different ways to write them. These words are added to the official dictionaries.
Language (speech and writing) changes dynamically in time.




winterlight -> RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (7/18/2009 11:12:47 AM)

I work with a man that is well read, intelligent, can speak coherently but cannot for the life of him spell even a simple word.
I am amazed of his knowledge about many things. You can strike up a conversation about anything with this man.

He grew up in a House full of men, mom had passed away at a young age.  He doesn't know the social graces at all. He simply wasn't taught. I will not look down upon him because of that nor that he cannot spell worth a damn. Etiquette is that you do not make somebody feel inferior you make them feel good. In other words I define them by how they are and how they treat a person than their lack of spelling.





winterlight -> RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (7/18/2009 11:19:15 AM)

Frankly if you think it is bad here wait until the next generation comes up. I have seen samples of writing on resumes from columnist's that report online.  It is really, really bad.  For that reason you may not be hired and I understand that. I have seen a lot of people complain about that.

Some people may have a learning disability. The words are backwards or upside down. This doesn't make them stupid, lazy or unintelligent.
I just canot fathom getting hung up on spelling errors. All of us are NOT good at something or at many things. I just worry about people and how they treat others.





autoRelease -> RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (7/18/2009 11:59:11 AM)

I can deal with bad spelling. It's comma splices and sentence fragments that annoy me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci
I don't find this to be the case at all. I've known some very wise folks who communicate some brilliant and deep thoughts very coherently who couldn't get 100% on a spelling test. Correlating spelling/grammar with intelligence or ability to communicate coherently is an error, IMHO.


That's true. There is more than one type of intelligence.  I can write just fine, but if we communicated in math problems I would seem stupid indeed. Also, let's not forget about people with learning disabilities.

I think some better indicators of intelligence when it comes to writing include Capitalizing Every Word in a Sentence or using multiple punctuation marks!!! You see what I mean?!




philosophy -> RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (7/18/2009 12:06:57 PM)

.......you're effectively suggesting that we ought to judge books by their covers. Language is not the ideas contained therein. By focussing so strongly on how ideas are conveyed you're losing the ability to perceive the ideas themselves.

Oh, and you're wrong about dyslexia at that level being that rare too.

i like ideas. i don't have to agree with them or concur with their underlying assumptions. i just like to see ideas happen.




slavekal -> RE: Spelling/Grammar (again?) (7/18/2009 12:30:15 PM)

I have to disagree.  I work in that field, and I have never seen a person who actually wrote a lower case letter and believed it was a capital.  I have never met a person who did not know the difference between a period being there and it not being there.  If you write nine hundred words without any punctuation, you should know that something is missing.  Retarded people can learn simple grammar and punctuation.  I know because I have met several who have. 

If you can't express your idea, it has no value to anyone but yourself.  You can talk all day into a phone, but if you don't have service, nobody can hear what you are saying. 




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