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Genetically, are we destroying our species ? - 7/19/2009 4:07:56 AM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		I been wondering about genetics recently and wondered  all through time before our current medical technologies, the survival of the fittest always reigned. The genes we have now being a product of the past race for survival, so I guess should be the best genes yet compared to our ancestors. But what was a natural process has now been interferred with by man. Our search for cures and treatments for conditions has created people where at one time they might have suffered an ailment, all the bugs and viruses around, they would take their toll and the fittest would survive, perhaps people who had a certain gene, not necessarily the physically stronger, now, we have an ailment, we just reach for a pill to knock out the symptoms. Maybe all the viruses , diseases and bugs that there are in the world, them being natural organisms are there to train the gene to become stronger and one wonders if given nature's management of life, what would have been the end result.

Say the day comes we have'nt access to our medications, through natural disaster or one that is man made, how will we fare I wonder, have we in our search for cures actually gone against nature and hindered the natural gene development. Maybe it is the gene has peaked in it's natural development, for mankind has changed the order of things with pharmaceuticals and even genetically modified life.

Maybe life is really genetical training, a farming of genes to arrive at a superior gene for, whatever put us here, but the irony is whatever created us built in the ability to care and there search to find cures for what ails us. So thinking all this I arrive at a bit of a pickle, exactly what mankind should be doing and where are we going.

Has anyone any thoughts on this ?




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RE: Genetically, are we destroying our species ? - 7/19/2009 9:37:00 AM   
MasterG2kTR


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Status: offline 		I see things in a similar light. It is no longer survival of the fittest. Now, it is survival of the smartest. In the not too distant future, it will be survival of the best engineered (genetically).

From the point of view that we now have people (with known genetic defects) surviving, because of mans intervention, does serve to weaken the gene pool, especially if/when these people engage in reproduction. This ensures the survival of the defective genes. I cannot say that I would want to live in a state like that of Gattaca, but there is no denying the truth of the matter.

In the current time, we have diseases and viruses that are mutating and rapidly becoming resistant to drugs because of man's meddling with nature. Our own immune systems are no longer effective enough to combat these microscopic invaders. Why? Because we don't allow our immune systems to strengthen and evolve to fight the battles more naturally. As a society we have become far too dependent on medications.

One example, is my local grocer. As you enter the store, there is a station containing anti-bacterial sanitizing gel for your hands, and wipes to clean the grip on your shopping cart. When we don't allow our bodies to come in contact with everyday bacteria, we continue to weaken our immune systems. It is this everyday contact with various micro-bugs that allows our immune system to build an effective defense against them.

< Message edited by MasterG2kTR -- 7/19/2009 9:38:46 AM >

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RE: Genetically, are we destroying our species ? - 7/19/2009 9:41:27 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		I agree about 1000%, but the idea is appalling to most. Wayback, people did not have a choice in the matter, but now we do. That means no bypass for Mom, no medical care even if the doc is right next door. When it became a choice, that is when the tables turned. It is seriously terrible to most people to deny medical care to anyone, to the point where many think the costs should be nationalised. In this environment natural selection simply does not work.

I know people who won't even let it work on their pets, with an Aunt who spent about fifty grand on a dog, to wind up prolonging it's life by a mere matter of months.

Concieve of actually letting natural selection work in this day and age. It means alot more than most see on the surface. It means someone is sick, you give no thought to treatment, they sink or swim and all you do is make them as comfortable as possible. And that's for family, others, well if you see them writhing on the road after being hit by a car, you just run them over, dumbass shouldn't have been out there.

The laws of nature are harsher than most people realize - by orders of magnitude. Go out in the wild and watch animals eat their prey, ALIVE. Watch a Mother kill her cub because it doesn't smell right. These things are part and parcel of natural law and quite frankly, most people today do not have the stomach for it.

T

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RE: Genetically, are we destroying our species ? - 7/19/2009 9:47:08 AM   
ExKat


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Status: offline 		Of course, this isn't to even mention the fact that the most successful and best educated people are not the ones having a bevy of children...in some nations, it's a struggle getting successful people to even have children.

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RE: Genetically, are we destroying our species ? - 7/19/2009 10:02:08 AM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		Why stop at medicine, why not include basic dental care. One of the reasons people used to die so young is they ground grains using stone. Over time all the stone dust in their food destroyed their teeth so they couldn't eat and starved to death.

Shall we go back to dying before age 35 as a result of that? And how exactly does it improve the species if we all do so?

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RE: Genetically, are we destroying our species ? - 7/19/2009 10:31:59 AM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		The interesting thing is, the poorer nations, those who do not get access to expensive meds or seem to pop them as if it were candy live fighting disease. The natural selection process is alive and well in the poorer parts of the world, therefore the genes that are being created there set to be stronger than those of the wealthy first world nations. Maybe our reliance on medication at the first sniffle, is making us into weaklings. Constant sanitisation of everything, yeah, I agree in medical centres cleanliness is of prime importance where the ill are weaker, but our every day lives, is it really necessary.

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RE: Genetically, are we destroying our species ? - 7/19/2009 10:49:16 AM   
lally2


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Status: offline 		im not sure i completely agree that its not the fittest to survive anymore.  the swine flu seems to be concentrating on the younger generations.  presumably the older generations already have some immunity to this strain of virus.  there are other far worse viruses lurking that seem not to have touched human beings (yet), that could be that the virus hasnt morphed or that we actually have immunity to them already and they just arent morphing fast enough to catch our immune systems out.

so far i would say that our immunity is holding out very well.  im willing to bet there are plenty of viruses out there right now that had they swept the world a century ago would have wiped out millions.  they are (predominantly) toothless now, largely because we have been constantly exposed to milder formats over the years that have strengthened our immunity against them.

im actually more of the opinion that the human being is an incredible survivor, its immunity is evolving as the viral strains evolve.

the big worry is that a virus will turn up that doesnt belong to any of the genomes already apparent in our physiological memory.  thats when we might get into trouble and it will hit the rich, poor, smart, stupid and everyone else in between.

< Message edited by lally2 -- 7/19/2009 10:51:41 AM >

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RE: Genetically, are we destroying our species ? - 7/19/2009 10:49:51 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		You are over analyzing...Our minds are just another in a long line of genetic mutations. All the ramifications of this most powerful mutation just change the direction of our development as a species.

We are far more likely to become extinct because of the actions of our minds then our mutated physical conditions.

Butch


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RE: Genetically, are we destroying our species ? - 7/19/2009 11:00:09 AM   
intenze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterG2kTR

I see things in a similar light. It is no longer survival of the fittest. Now, it is survival of the smartest. In the not too distant future, it will be survival of the best engineered (genetically).

The fittest and the smartest are the same thing. Survival depends on the ability to adapt to the environment the organism is in, and the ability to reproduce in that environment. Success does not necessarily depend on strength or "fitness".

quote:

From the point of view that we now have people (with known genetic defects) surviving, because of mans intervention, does serve to weaken the gene pool, especially if/when these people engage in reproduction. This ensures the survival of the defective genes. I cannot say that I would want to live in a state like that of Gattaca, but there is no denying the truth of the matter.

People survive, yes but if they do not reproduce they do not pass on their genes into the gene pool. All living things are constantly evolving and mutating. Some are successful, some are not.  Gattaca is science fiction, nothing more.

quote:

 

One example, is my local grocer. As you enter the store, there is a station containing anti-bacterial sanitizing gel for your hands, and wipes to clean the grip on your shopping cart. When we don't allow our bodies to come in contact with everyday bacteria, we continue to weaken our immune systems. It is this everyday contact with various micro-bugs that allows our immune system to build an effective defense against them.
This is completely true.  We are trying to remove harmful bacteria and virii and in the process remove the helpful normal flora that keeps us protected. We do this inside and out.  It is the most harmful thing we do, in my opinion. 

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RE: Genetically, are we destroying our species ? - 7/19/2009 11:30:31 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterG2kTR

It is no longer survival of the fittest. Now, it is survival of the smartest.


...sorry, but you've misunderstood what was meant by 'fittest' in this context. The word 'fit' has (at least) two discrete meanings. The first one, the one i think you've used, is physically fit. The second could be called apt. Darwin always meant that latter not the former.
It's not, and has never been, about who can run fastest or bench press the most. It's always been about the ability to adapt.......who can best 'fit' their current environment.

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RE: Genetically, are we destroying our species ? - 7/19/2009 1:55:06 PM   
MarsBonfire


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Status: offline 		During the time of the Black Death, fully 1/3 of the population of Europe was wiped out. 400,000 people. The virus transmitted by fleas didn't give a shit about how smart you were, or if you were rich or poor. It killed you because you were a warm body, which made you a perfect vessel for replication.

Except...

In one small villiage in the North, the virus couldn't get a foot hold. These people, through either a minor mutation, or a set of genes brought in from outside, had a natural immunity to certain viruses. They survived. What's more, all their kids also carry this immunity. Today, thanks to the black death wiping out so many of their "competition" and allowing those who were immune to reproduce, we have several tens of thousands of people living in Europe and America and elsewhere, who are immune to AIDS. (and other viral-bourne diaseases.)

We might interfere with the process somewhat, but ultimatley we just don't have the resouces or determination to do much more than cause nature a bit of "static" in it's ongoing improvement to various animal populations. Sure, there are always those who are selected for extinction, but again, it's primarily natures choice. Frankly, I think mankind is in far greater danger from itself, than from any natural threat.


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RE: Genetically, are we destroying our species ? - 7/19/2009 2:09:07 PM   
TurboJugend


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quote:

I see things in a similar light. It is no longer survival of the fittest


when humans started to use tools.....it was no longer survival of the fittest either. Some species died perhaps...others changed to survive mankind.
IF we die because of what we do...the world is not lost...it just will be different.
Just as happened before.

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RE: Genetically, are we destroying our species ? - 7/19/2009 4:47:50 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Status: offline 		FR:

Evolution is a bit more complex, and subject to both mathematical laws of probability and to chance, and finally, to the burden and prior results of evolutionary paths taken in the past.

Some of this thread comes close to espousing social Darwinism, and I think that's verging on dangerous.

I think evolution includes culture in the case of mankind. And this is why I think beliefs (and ideology) are perhaps more important then most people realize. It is also one of the issues that I have with "multiculturalism".

Interesting subject.

Firm





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RE: Genetically, are we destroying our species ? - 7/19/2009 7:05:44 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		I was just wondering how evolution would have much to do with mathematical laws of probability? Mathematic laws of probabilities would not control the mutation itself and it would be pure chance how that mutation would prove beneficial to random circumstances.

For instance the existence of a mutation that made some people more resistant to the plague was not a result of the plague itself… but it proved so beneficial that it altered history.

Butch


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RE: Genetically, are we destroying our species ? - 7/19/2009 10:39:37 PM   
reify


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Status: offline 		If you accept the assumptions of evolution, we are still evolving.  If we "magically" lose our technology, we'll still survive.  If we survive, we're stronger.  If we die out, we're not.  There's obviously no way to test this...

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RE: Genetically, are we destroying our species ? - 7/20/2009 3:50:18 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		reify, perhaps that would be better put as "those who survive".

Just to complicate things (everyone needs a hobby) theories of evolution do vary. Would you espouse more that the unfit died off or adapted ? If they died off it was certain traits of the survivors. If you believe that for example, a single being adapted to an environment that had changed, perhaps drastically, that is something different. Both views have their merit, and perhaps both are correct.

But in the spirit of the OP comes a question. Is our tampering with nature actually a part of nature ? Human beings, which are a part of nature, developed CAT scanners, sulfa drugs, microsurgery, analgesic and all of this. It was all invented by people who were born on this planet, so how can we call it tampering ? Does not a beaver build a dam ? Does the fact that a beaver built the dam preclude it somehow from being considered a part of nature ? (there was a pretty good joke about that in the humor section, if you can find it)

At any rate, if you adopt the point of view that Man's interference with nature is not natural, this would apply to all species'. And then you can twist it and ask, then if they make enviromental laws or prohibit certain types of research, are they not guilty of tampering ? After all, those who pollute and research were born on this planet as far as we know. As such they constitute part of nature then right ? Or wrong ?

That can be bandied about ad infinitum ala the chicken and the egg. Most of us have not thought it out to that extent, so I suspect it will be difficult to find common ground. But at this point I think the term "natural" needs a hard and fast definition.

You have the floor.

T

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