RE: Master/slave questions (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Master



Message

Leonidas -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/29/2009 10:12:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

It is often the way that people use judgmental language, and I think is something that is highly exacerbated online. It is like so often the discussion comes down to what is true and what isn't people feel that they are getting told that who they are is not as good, that is why people get passionate and that is why debates get so heated, if people really did believe the whole live and let live philosophy then there would be no value judgments, there are on both sides.


I think it's just as often someone's knee-jerk reaction to even a neutral description if they percieve it to be more extreme (and therefore somehow better) than what they're doing, like the example of the 24/7 collar that I gave above.  Sometimes you can just state what you do, and it'll be percieved as judgemental, even if you're simply stating what you do.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/29/2009 10:15:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

quote:


She seems bound to you then not because she would stay if she were free to go but because she has wanted to leave but can't. 


Yep.  And if you can think of no circumstance where both master and slave would ethically agree that that would be in the slave's best interests, do not even consider these kinds of practices.



And here is where the chasm opens up between you and I.  If it was in the slaves "best interests" to be deprived of authority, I would first work with her to ensure she was fully capable of exercising that authority, only then would I consider her worthy of becoming my slave and what would bind her to me is not her weakness but her strength.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/29/2009 10:20:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

Ever think it's maybe 'cause I was avoiding you?


Actually, that is exactly what I thought.  When I make a mistake, I step up and own it, its a bit hard on the ego sometimes but what it does for my sense of integrity is well worth it.



Leonidas -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/29/2009 10:33:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

And here is where the chasm opens up between you and I.  If it was in the slaves "best interests" to be deprived of authority, I would first work with her to ensure she was fully capable of exercising that authority, only then would I consider her worthy of becoming my slave and what would bind her to me is not her weakness but her strength.



I am glad you found what works for you.  Once again, if you can think of no circumstances where this would be in a slaves best interest, don't attempt it on purpose, and do what you can to avoid doing it accidentally.

I want to make it clear again that I have no comment about the ethics of this practice.  Leadership said he was having trouble making the distinction, so I offered what I know about it, and that it does in fact happen.

I also have no doubt that you are convinced that whatever it is you do is superior to whatever it is that I do, and since my chances of changing that point of view aren't so good, I'm not going to try.

Hope that helps.



LillyoftheVally -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/29/2009 10:55:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

I think it's just as often someone's knee-jerk reaction to even a neutral description if they percieve it to be more extreme (and therefore somehow better) than what they're doing, like the example of the 24/7 collar that I gave above. Sometimes you can just state what you do, and it'll be percieved as judgemental, even if you're simply stating what you do.



Yeah that is a good point, I think internalising the idea of what we 'should' be can cause us to lash out at other people blaming it on them rather than accepting it is an issue that needs to be addressed within the self.



RCdc -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/29/2009 11:07:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

I think it's just as often someone's knee-jerk reaction to even a neutral description if they percieve it to be more extreme (and therefore somehow better) than what they're doing, like the example of the 24/7 collar that I gave above. Sometimes you can just state what you do, and it'll be percieved as judgemental, even if you're simply stating what you do.



Yeah that is a good point, I think internalising the idea of what we 'should' be can cause us to lash out at other people blaming it on them rather than accepting it is an issue that needs to be addressed within the self.


[sm=goodpost.gif]



barelynangel -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/29/2009 11:10:52 AM)

quote:

If it was in the slaves "best interests" to be deprived of authority, I would first work with her to ensure she was fully capable of exercising that authority, only then would I consider her worthy of becoming my slave and what would bind her to me is not her weakness but her strength.


Michael my first question is why would you want to do that?  I mean you act as if this type of weakness is a BAD thing.  This i guess is where i just don't get where you are coming from.   Have you ever considered that the slave finds STRENGTH in being kept not wanting or NEEDING such authority to exist with a Man?  Your use of the word worthy is interesting -- why would someone find YOU worthy of being a Master of her if she can easily exist IN HER OWN AUTHORITY?  To humor you?  To take the responsibility away from you so you don't have the pressure of actually BEING her authority but know you have her for backup?  I mean seriously -- why would someone who CAN and does exercise such authority as you would need for her to be capable of exercising same in her life BECOME A SLAVE? -- a submissive sure, but a slave?  lol why would they put themselves through such a thing if they are capable of not existing in such a fashion?  Slavery is not a whoo hoo concept to exist in if one is capable of existing and thriving outside of same.  Most women who fall into the slave catagory are women who SUCK and more so DON'T WANT that type of authority.  So to try and change a woman's needs to fit some idea of right and wrong of what is deemed negative -- weakness -- honestly blows my mind.

Men who own slaves don't change what they naturally are -- to do so is detrimental to them because you are trying to make them exist in a concept they don't want, don't need, and more so don't really understand.   What it sounds like is you want a free woman, capable of thriving in freedom to make the choice to submit to your leadership.  That is OKAY, seriously it is, but you can't change the spots of a woman who needs, wants, and thrives within what you deem weakness in a negative manner.

Most slaves i know don't do well with freedom because they suck at this type of authority in her life -- MOST women who are slave DO know how to exercise such authority but they suck at it usually and they do exercise it but suck at doing so lol when they aren't owned.  So while i know you feel it would be cool to teach her to exercise it, you really won't be and what will more than likely happen is you will not feed her needs which is part of depriving her of said authority so she can thrive in your life, instead you will confuse her and make her very uncomfortable in her existence with you because in the end, her needs will constantly remind her she is NOT living as she should be but insteads is trying to please you by faking a concept you want from her because yiu think such a weakness is something she should be ashamed of.   Its not.  If she can exist within her own authority then she really doesn't NEED you to be her so called Master.   A leader in her life -- maybe, but a Master -- no, more so hell no, because to me what you have said clearly indicates to me that you are not willing to shoulder the responsibility of owning someone and being a Master but instead simply want the perception of same --- a slave cannot live on perception, she will eventually seek out another who can and will satisfy her needs.

This type of weakness is not a negative thing, its simply a natural one for some women.  This society has made this type of need a negative and many Men are afraid of having someone so dependent upon them that they perceive this need to be something they have to "fix."

You can't fix something that isn't broke.

angel



leadership527 -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/29/2009 11:15:42 AM)

Leonidas:
Wow, you're right. That NEVER would've occurred to me. At this point, I think I'll just walk away from this entire thought train.

Orion:
Why on earth would anyone "not believe" in a very straight-forward and easy to accomplish conditioning cycle that happens all the time? Anyone who's watched Jerry Springer or Dr. Phil has seen this pattern repeat over and over.

Michael
I'm with you on this one. The deliberate implantation or enhancement of flaws and weaknesses is... well.. that'd be outside my hard limits.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/29/2009 11:35:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

And here is where the chasm opens up between you and I.  If it was in the slaves "best interests" to be deprived of authority, I would first work with her to ensure she was fully capable of exercising that authority, only then would I consider her worthy of becoming my slave and what would bind her to me is not her weakness but her strength.



I also have no doubt that you are convinced that whatever it is you do is superior to whatever it is that I do,



Actually, not at all.  I think the whole paradigm of one "way" working better than another "way" is silly.   Frankly, I think what you and I do is, based on the bit I quoted earlier, is far more similar than different. 



Mercnbeth -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/29/2009 11:37:34 AM)

quote:

I think it's just as often someone's knee-jerk reaction to even a neutral description if they percieve it to be more extreme (and therefore somehow better) than what they're doing, like the example of the 24/7 collar that I gave above. Sometimes you can just state what you do, and it'll be percieved as judgemental, even if you're simply stating what you do.

Leonidas,
The confidence of a person relative to their relationship is usually in direct opposite proportion to their heated protest when what they represent is challenged. Who, in a secure relationship, would feel that relationship is invalidated if words from a stranger, or a friend for that matter, are perceived as posing a threat? Whether the subject is a wearing a collar, 'no limits', safe-words or 'on-line' love affairs; being challenged should be seen as an opportunity to confirm your beliefs not weaken them.


quote:

And here is where the chasm opens up between you and I. If it was in the slaves "best interests" to be deprived of authority, I would first work with her to ensure she was fully capable of exercising that authority, only then would I consider her worthy of becoming my slave and what would bind her to me is not her weakness but her strength.

Michael,
Wouldn't that make you her 'mentor' more than her 'Master'?

Stipulating that you have some other stimulus at the beginning of your relationship; this concept represents that the first thing you would do with this partner would be to change her. You're going to take a person, comfortable and self aware of their submissive nature and change them into a person "fully capable of exercising" assertive "authority". Then once she has it, "bind her" to you? Granted that's a GREAT mentor, as long as the subject desired that goal. However, you run a very high risk of destroying the fundamental stimulus making the relationship desirable in the first place.

Why do you see her deprivation of authority as a "weakness"? It takes a great strength to come through a personal self assesment and come to the conclusion that you are NOT good at making decisions for yourself and being self reliant. Finding a compatible partner desiring you and willing to take you is problematic. Sometime this individual will have to act assertive to function on their own. However it is an act. Acting is work. You can't work 24/7 for an extended period of time. You won't have a long term, cohabitating relationship with someone who is required to act in order to meet their partner's expecations. These relationships often have built in 'time-outs' and 'vacations' accounting for that inner conflict. Ever need a 'vacation' from contentment, stability, and fulfillment?

Changing people is a difficult thing. I'm of the opinion that it can't be done - people don't change. Sometimes what is perceived as change is simply access to information or experience that results in them identifying themselves by a different, previously unknown, standard. Change as a cornerstone for a relationship is a recipe for dissappointment.


As a side bar - If you and Leonidas are now too friendly for a broadsword [sm=duel.gif] match, I'll still host a party for your 'hand-binding' ceremony! [sm=biggrin.gif]



TurboJugend -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/29/2009 12:04:44 PM)

quote:

Wouldn't that make you her 'mentor' more than her 'Master'?


depending how you see a Master or a Mentor...those be can be (close to) similar.
(although to me mentor sounds less like a physical involvment, but it can )



CreativeDominant -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/29/2009 12:18:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: downkitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Hmmmmmmmm...if you are easily swept by someone else's influence and the only way the dominant has of averting you from another's influence is be exercising tight control, then couldn't one say that you do not allow his dominance to be what it is but rather that his dominance is determined by your level of submission rather than the other way around?  I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I am in all actuality curious.  Many submissives, including you below, state that it takes a stronger person than they themselves to compel submission but if the level has to constantly be monitored by the dominant and must always be kept tight by the dominant, then is the submission to the dominant OR to the situation as presented by the dominant at that moment?   Or is this just a theoretical/philosophical debate?


As far as I can tell, his dominance is what it is, regardless of me.  He was who he is before I met him and will be the man he is (or becomes) with or without me.  I am sure I have some kind of influence over him just like other environmental factors have influence on people.  He does not change his requirements of me due to my nature, so I would not say his dominance is determined by my level of submission.  He does, however, control situations and my exposure to some things in order to make it possible for me (with my quirks and flaws) to successfully serve him well. 

For example:  He directs that I remain monogamous to him.  He knows that my instinct is to submit in order to avoid conflict.  I naturally take the easy way out of a lot of situations, so I have often submitted sexually (before being owned by him) rather than create conflict by insisting that I don't want to.  If I say "no," and the guy persists (even if it is just to keep verbally trying to convince me), I just give in.  So, Master was selective in the job he allowed me to take and is selective in the social situations he allows me outside his presence.  He would never allow me to be a bartender, for instance, as that would be a recipie for disaster, and he knows it.  He does not change the requirement, though, despite my nature.  I know that without a doubt, if I were to submit to another sexually, my ass would be out the door in a heartbeat.  It is not allowed, not tolerated.  Those are his terms, and while he does assist in my being successful in abiding by his terms, he will not alter the terms unless HE wants to for his own reasons.  I have no indication from him in over 5 years that "his reasons" would ever be "it goes against her nature."  All of my indications have been the opposite.  Despite my nature, if I disobey that directive, I'm gone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

In other words, compatibility.


I think compatibility is probably the most important ingredient in any successful relationship.

Respectfully,

amy

Hence, you pick a dominant who thrives on imposing tight and rigid control and who does so because he not only understands that you are influenced easily by others...he accepts it.  He may even, if you want to change it, be willing to take that "flaw" and guide you to a place in which you are not so easily influenced by others while still being influenced easily by him.
So...a more controlling dominant would be more compatible with you than one who is laid back.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/29/2009 1:12:12 PM)

Rather than using the heated topic of who is more uber, I am going to flip it so it isn't so touchy.  Lets pretedn I decide that I need to have a much greater understanding of being a bottom if not a submissive and so I petition Master Skip to be in service to him.  He is someone you and I have a great deal of respect for.  I spend a year or two in his service and lets say he gets the serious hots for me and turns all his attention on trying to make me his slave and gives me the best possible training ever AND because I am serious about understanding being a bottom I throw my heart and soul into it.

When our contract ends, I would walk away knowing how to be a great bottom and lets say he even pulls some submission out of me and I manage to find place in me that enjoys it.  However, it isn't me, I would never be happy being a bottom, I am going to go back to being what makes me happy and fullfills me which is being a dominant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


Why do you see her deprivation of authority as a "weakness"?


I don't, at least not in those terms.  I may or may not be a weakness just like drinking alcohol may or may not be a weakness, sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't, and it isn't easy to define which is which. 

quote:

Changing people is a difficult thing. I'm of the opinion that it can't be done - people don't change.


Perhaps change isn't the right word, show them better ways of doing the same things that result in better outcomes. 

quote:

As a side bar - If you and Leonidas are now too friendly for a broadsword match, I'll still host a party for your 'hand-binding' ceremony!


Oh, its still on, one only need read the thread on Fetlife and see the vitiriol their to know, we are doing this.  BountyHunter just offered up $100 for each of our favorite charities when we both show.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/29/2009 1:24:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel


Slavery is not a whoo hoo concept to exist in if one is capable of existing and thriving outside of same.  Most women who fall into the slave catagory are women who SUCK and more so DON'T WANT that type of authority.  So to try and change a woman's needs to fit some idea of right and wrong of what is deemed negative -- weakness -- honestly blows my mind.


angel


I think your mind could use a good blowing out and I hope this helps

quote:

Most slaves i know don't do well with freedom because they suck at this type of authority in her life


Most alcoholics only know other alcoholics too, just because that is your experience doesn't mean it is mine.  How many slaves have you met in person?  How many have you spent considerable time with?  I am pretty sure my pool of experience in that regard exceeds yours by a rather wide margin, both with people you would consider slaves as well as ones I would. 

quote:

 If she can exist within her own authority then she really doesn't NEED you to be her so called Master.  


Nope, which means when she does, it carries a whole hell of a lot more meaning for me than if she was only saying that because she needed someone and I happened to be the nearest life preserver.





tazzygirl -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/29/2009 1:27:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael


..... I would walk away knowing how to be a great bottom and lets say he even pulls some submission out of me and I manage to find place in me that enjoys it.  However, it isn't me, I would never be happy being a bottom, I am going to go back to being what makes me happy and fullfills me which is being a dominant.



im confused, Michael. you would return to being dominant, yet, you would attempt to change a slave into being self reliant. is it perhaps you believe we never learned how? that we dont know the steps, the motions?

i can function on my own. and thats all i can do.. function. it takes all my power, all my energy, to merely function day to day. to thrive, i need more.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/29/2009 1:42:46 PM)

quote:

Lets pretend I decide that I need to have a much greater understanding of being a bottom if not a submissive and so I petition Master Skip to be in service to him. He is someone you and I have a great deal of respect for. I spend a year or two in his service and lets say he gets the serious hots for me and turns all his attention on trying to make me his slave and gives me the best possible training ever AND because I am serious about understanding being a bottom I throw my heart and soul into it.

When our contract ends, I would walk away knowing how to be a great bottom and lets say he even pulls some submission out of me and I manage to find place in me that enjoys it. However, it isn't me, I would never be happy being a bottom, I am going to go back to being what makes me happy and fulfills me which is being a dominant.


Michael, you have changed the parameters of the discussion. You are now describing an exact example of mentoring. In your example you go in wanting to utilize Master Skip's skills and ability for self improvement and/or understanding. You never went into the arrangement with a desire to be a submissive or slave. You went in with the purpose of "need to have a much greater understanding of being a bottom...". From my limited personal interaction with Master Skip if his emotions did go down the path you describe I would think his integrity would require him to remove himself from the position as your mentor. He may still pursue you, but I'm sure he'd turn over your training over to someone who could do it pragmatically.

I don't think you meant to have your perspective partner coming into the relationship with any need to understand anything other than the definition and dynamic you desire in a relationship with her.

Now if you want to discuss the potential of someone coming to you with an agenda and a desire to change and there is an unintended result of one party "gets the serious hots" for the other; thats not how most relationships start. I think mentoring can occur with or without physical interaction. Consider the boot camp drill instructor as an example of a mentor. Having a physical dynamic does not represent an intimate dynamic. It's intimacy and emotional attachment that presents a potential problem and blurs the line between mentor and relationship partner.

There shouldn't be any "uber" consideration applied to my opinion. I'm relating to what you are saying and think I even understand your desired dynamic; but the path you have set seems to be in conflict with your stated goal - a long term relationship. It would be like healing and teaching a injured bird how to fly again and then expecting them to live in a cage of your Mastery after you do. You can do a GREAT job in the healing/mentoring process but once they are confident enough to fly, how can you expect them to want to live confined? It is not natural for them; and if they do agree to stay with you in a cage, do you want gratitude and guilt as the reason?



SimplyMichael -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/29/2009 1:43:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

im confused, Michael. you would return to being dominant, yet, you would attempt to change a slave into being self reliant. is it perhaps you believe we never learned how? that we dont know the steps, the motions?



Uh, you been taking reading lessons from Nihilus?  Leonidas and others are saying slaves need to be dependent on their masters because they can't make decisions on their own or at least do it poorly or whatever the hell it is they are saying.  I am saying the opposite or at least I think I am saying the opposite, at this point, frankly I am just losing interest in the whole mess.

If someone wants to be happy with a bird with clipped wings and brag how it doesn't fly away, have at it. 



leadership527 -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/29/2009 1:43:10 PM)

~FAST REPLY~
Regarding this whole "turning a slave into a dom" line (which, for the record, is not what I think SM actually meant here)

OK, that was a real eye opener for me at my very first MAST meeting. Hands down the single most useful piece of information that came out of my time spent at MaST was a story related by another couple wherein he'd spent the last 40 years trying to "fix" his submissive wife by "helping" her to be more like him. For once in my life, I decided to learn from someone else's mistakes.

So I'm totally down with the whole don't try to turn a submissive into a dominant thing. But that doesn't mean that I'm not working aggressively with Carol to help her to be more capable and self-reliant in the world. Carol is generally submissive. So I'm teaching her how to succeed in various situations from a submissive's mindset. As it turns out, there are always ways and ways to skin a cat. I'm pretty sure you can accomplish anything up to and including being the CEO of a major corporation from a submissive's mindset. Granted, some things are a more natural fit than others, but in a pinch it can be done.

I don't want to teach Carol to be more dominant. I want to teach her to better understand and deploy the submissive tools at her disposal to succeed in a wide variety of situations.



tazzygirl -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/29/2009 1:53:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

im confused, Michael. you would return to being dominant, yet, you would attempt to change a slave into being self reliant. is it perhaps you believe we never learned how? that we dont know the steps, the motions?



Uh, you been taking reading lessons from Nihilus?  Leonidas and others are saying slaves need to be dependent on their masters because they can't make decisions on their own or at least do it poorly or whatever the hell it is they are saying.  I am saying the opposite or at least I think I am saying the opposite, at this point, frankly I am just losing interest in the whole mess.

If someone wants to be happy with a bird with clipped wings and brag how it doesn't fly away, have at it. 



one, thank you for the attempt at the put down.

two, i have been following this thread closely. why would you assume her/his wings are clipped? i find freedom in being owned completely. its a concept some tend to not be able to grasp because its far outside of what they believe that relationship should be. perhaps the same way i would view a man wishing to be slave to a female. totally foreign to me, but, not deserving of my contempt or my attempts to change their views. sometimes acceptance is hard.

for a slave to stay within such a relationship, there are things a man must be fullfilling within her, and her within him. it is a symbiotic relationship. there is strength in a slave. perhaps that is what is escaping you. the inability to see that strength.



barelynangel -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/29/2009 2:01:21 PM)

quote:

Leonidas and others are saying slaves need to be dependent on their masters because they can't make decisions on their own or at least do it poorly or whatever the hell it is they are saying. 


That's not technically what is being said....  

Maybe its just me but is not the bolded statement proof that you have no clue what people are saying and are simply responding to what respond?

Michael, your indication to me is a woman who needs a Man to be her Master should be ashamed of that need.  The only one i see who feels the shame would be you for wanting a woman who was so co-dependent on whether or not you can step up to the plate.  You are projecting or would be projecting that shame onto any woman you decide to try and change to meet your view of being a woman who enjoys freedom but gives it up all for you.  Sorry but most Men i know don't need women for that and most Men who are or have been Masters i know aren't masters for validation or to be DEPENDENT on the woman to make him feel like a Man or a Master.  It seems to me you have turned the co-dependency around and you are stating the Man who is the Master must be co-dependent upon the slave to validate him and make him feel and be the Master.   That may be what M/s and TPE is in your book, but when all is said and done, i would find myself truly disgusted with such a Man who was that needy of the woman he called slave to achieve that concept of their relationship.

One good thing is slaves who have this need probably wouldn't waste their time with you -- not for long anyway.  That actually is a good thing because like what others have indicated you would expect these women to fake it and never make it. 

Finally, grins, Michael, i know a few slaves who live or have lived and yes have spent much time with them.  However, i actually WAS a slave in the type of relationship we speak about for many years and know many who are also.  The difference i believe between you and i is seems i was an active participant in such a relationship, and you are not an active participant in these slaves you have spent time with.  To be an active participant you have to be PART of the dynamic not just a bystander observing.  I don't know where Men come from in the dynamic, my statements come from simply what i lived and my knowledge of same.  So yes, if you consider speaking or spending time with people who call themselves slaves rather than living it yourself as an active participant in a TPE relationship to be "more experience."  You win hands down lol.   However, from what you have posted over the forums that i have read not just this thread, you haven't been capable of achieving TPE relationship with anyone and now from what i read -- you don't wish too. 

grins so yes,
quote:

I am pretty sure my pool of experience
i agree your pool of experience knowing or speaking with people or spending time with people is more vast than mine -- i only have the few people i know and speak to and have spent time with who also live the dynamic or have lived it and i only have close to 8 years of living the dynamic that many are speaking about here.  So yeah, your experience shines through Michael. 

angel



Page: <<   < prev  15 16 [17] 18 19   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875