to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (7/23/2009 3:49:13 AM)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/pda/2009/jul/22/neuroscience-supercomputing-brain-simulation

The part towards the end of the article I find most intriguing - that the supercomputer brain model lights up when provided stimulus. Originally when I heard of this story I did wonder about whether an actual organ was being grown - they do this nowadays with all sorts of organs - but it seems they are here talking about a computer model.

Still, my thoughts work I think on the subject, given the model they have now is reactive to stimuli in the way described.

The question this gives rise to is fundamental, and not a new one admittedly - whether there is actually what we might call a soul which drives the machine known as the brain (and thence the body), or whether what we might call a soul (personality, identity, self conciousness et al) arises from the machine? The answer to this has huge implications, potentially validating or undermining the underpinnings of cultures worldwide in religion - and research like this may provide that answer - an answer which whether (a) or (b) is established, will cause consternation for some and be welcomed by others.

E




willbeurdaddy -> RE: to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (7/23/2009 7:25:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen



The question this gives rise to is fundamental, and not a new one admittedly - whether there is actually what we might call a soul which drives the machine known as the brain (and thence the body), or whether what we might call a soul (personality, identity, self conciousness et al) arises from the machine?



It is the fundamental question of our existence. Is consciousness ultimately a physical process, an illusion of subjective experience embedded in an objective world and explainable by mass and energy, or is it something fundamental and irreducible like space/time/mass/charge? I believe it is the former, a "Whole is greater than the sum of the parts" result of complexity. If we are ever capable of raising computing to the complexity of the billions of neurons in a brain (and that is likely to require organic computers, not chips) then I believe consciousness will emerge.




Aneirin -> RE: to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (7/23/2009 8:33:07 AM)

It always interested me that the electronic componentry that is in artifical intelligence devices, is made up of the same elements and minerals that nature is, and for that matter, us.

Take the elements and minerals as they are arranged and pass an electric charge through them, is that not moving towards a natural process.

Maybe it is the fact that animal life has another thing in it that so far scientists are unable to isolate, understand, prove and there recreate is the difference between artificial intelligence and natural intelligence. That thing called, the spirit, soul, prana and a myriad of other names across the world, through culture and through history, is the difference, without it, you just have a machine.

Maybe it is not for us to decide where this other quantity, the 22 grammmes is placed.




NihilusZero -> RE: to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (7/23/2009 8:39:02 AM)

Whether via the advancement of technology and AI of by the transcendence of another species to self-reflective cognizance, humanity will have to deal directly with their metaphysical concepts of uniqueness and the anthropic ego eventually. Humans are the first example that self-reflective sentience begets a certain ethical narcissism, so it's not unlikely that machines other than us (organic or mechanical) would develop the same presumptions upon attaining that level of awareness.




kdsub -> RE: to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (7/23/2009 8:40:33 AM)

LadyEllen I believe there are no mysteries of our existence that are beyond our understanding…even God in time. If this were true even the soul will be understood and duplicated if needed…or even if not needed.

The danger is our knowledge gathering and abilities will race ahead of our maturity as a race. As we all know knowledge is dangerous if we don’t have the wisdom to use it properly. We may well destroy ourselves before we gain that wisdom.

Butch




GotSteel -> RE: to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (7/23/2009 1:49:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

It always interested me that the electronic componentry that is in artifical intelligence devices, is made up of the same elements and minerals that nature is, and for that matter, us.


Last I checked we weren't made of silicon.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Maybe it is the fact that animal life has another thing in it that so far scientists are unable to isolate, understand, prove and there recreate is the difference between artificial intelligence and natural intelligence. That thing called, the spirit, soul, prana and a myriad of other names across the world, through culture and through history, is the difference, without it, you just have a machine.


No, the difference between animals and computers (I don't want to use the word machines because we are all machines) other than being made of meat is that animals are intelligent and computers are not. It has nothing to do with the soul, faeries, unicorns or any other imaginary thing.




philosophy -> RE: to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (7/23/2009 1:56:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

No, the difference between animals and computers (I don't want to use the word machines because we are all machines) other than being made of meat is that animals are intelligent and computers are not.


.......wonder how long it will be before a computer passes the Turing test?




philosophy -> RE: to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (7/23/2009 2:01:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

LadyEllen I believe there are no mysteries of our existence that are beyond our understanding…


...have you ever heard of Von Neumanns Catastrophe?

In simple terms, imagine you have a machine that, like all possible machines in the real world, has a finite amount of inefficiency. Now, it is simple to use another machine to measure that amount of inefficiency, but of course the second machine also have a finite amount of inefficiency. So i had a third machine to measure the second machines inefficiency......but of course the third machine has a finite amount of inefficiency.....and so on, into infinity.

The point being that it is impossible, in complex systems, to know 100% of the possible information about it. One might approach 100%, maybe 99.9999999999%, but that's just not the same as 100%. It is perfectly feasible that there are some systems we will never know completely.




awmslave -> RE: to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (7/23/2009 2:29:40 PM)

Quote from the artickle:
quote:

They are now able to stimulate this simulated brain with images. If they show the brain a rose, what happens? "We can now follow the energy. We saw these ghostly electrical columns in the neo-cortex," Markram wrote.


What does it mean? What energy?
In general, I believe it is very important area of research. Based on the article, I can not understand what was actually discovered. They programmed the machine to react in certain way. The philosohical discussion has been around many generations.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (7/23/2009 4:05:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

No, the difference between animals and computers (I don't want to use the word machines because we are all machines) other than being made of meat is that animals are intelligent and computers are not.


.......wonder how long it will be before a computer passes the Turing test?


Who cares, its a very poor criterion for "intelligence".




GotSteel -> RE: to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (7/23/2009 4:29:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

No, the difference between animals and computers (I don't want to use the word machines because we are all machines) other than being made of meat is that animals are intelligent and computers are not.


.......wonder how long it will be before a computer passes the Turing test?


Who cares, its a very poor criterion for "intelligence".



um, non sequitur.........




willbeurdaddy -> RE: to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (7/23/2009 5:20:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

No, the difference between animals and computers (I don't want to use the word machines because we are all machines) other than being made of meat is that animals are intelligent and computers are not.


.......wonder how long it will be before a computer passes the Turing test?


Who cares, its a very poor criterion for "intelligence".



um, non sequitur.........



Ummm, no its not. The Turing test was proposed as a means of determining if a machine can think, which is the same as the machine being intelligent.

You might read Godel ,Escher, Bach sometime...I helped edit it.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (7/23/2009 5:21:23 PM)

double post




NihilusZero -> RE: to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (7/23/2009 5:34:48 PM)

Artificial "intelligence" would be a bit of a misnomer. We'd only need artificial self-reflective sentience.

Heck, we already had the appearance of computer intelligence 12 years ago in Kasparov vs. Deep Blue.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (7/23/2009 5:44:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

Artificial "intelligence" would be a bit of a misnomer. We'd only need artificial self-reflective sentience.

Heck, we already had the appearance of computer intelligence 12 years ago in Kasparov vs. Deep Blue.



Since Deep Blue needed reprogramming between games to counter strategies that it could not counter on its own, I wouldnt classify it as "intelligent".

I do agree with what I think you are saying in the first sentence though. If there is ever an "intelligent" machine, that intelligence will be no more or less artificial than human intelligence.




GotSteel -> RE: to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (7/23/2009 5:56:25 PM)


I completely agree with you that passing the Turing test won't prove intelligence any more than Deep Blue did by beating Kasparov.  However it doesn't follow that no one cares just because the test will eventually be won by some bot. Having computer programs that can interact with us in a human manner will still be really awesome.




Termyn8or -> RE: to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (7/23/2009 9:13:30 PM)

FR

I had to hit snopes for this, but they confirm, or at least refuse to deny that the soul weighs 21 grams. A quick look about the net reveals that this subject has not been discussed to death, there are varying opinions.

I could rebut the 21 gram theory in two ways. One would be that there are gaseous emissions from the human body at the moment of death. Or possibly embodied in the works of Einstein we might find it. Einstein concluded that light rays can be influenced by gravity. If anything is energy, light is. However there are these things called photons said to reside in rays of light. [quick question, does gravity affect a magnetic field ?].

So even accepted science is ambiguous at times. If a light ray is photons, and something different than other wavelengths of the EM spectrum, why does it fit so well. ? Why do the innovations based on these principles work at all ?

I believe that no matter how many questions they answer, they generate at least two more. This is the way the universe is, it is not their fault. If light exists in some gray area in the space/time continuum, it is well possible that we are simply lacking in a few pieces of information. If you can, break down the wall in your mind about the definitions of matter and energy. I do disagree with Einstein's modified theory, but I did not toss the baby out with the bathwater.

It comes clear, over the period of years, that things will be explained in time. The soul may have no mass, maybe all they discodered is that the energy used in our bodies for impulses to the muscles and so forth is energy in the same sense and therefore has mass. I can't explain it, but I seem to come closer and closer to thinking of mass and energy as the same thing, only in a different form. Perhaps the form is not quite completely distinct, that not only is there some mass in energy, but the reverse would also apply, that there is some energy in mass.

The soul is a hard thing to discuss, but here goes. If you were kidnapped by aliens and they made an absolutely perfect replica of you to leave behind, and nobody knew, you would still be on their planet doing who the hell knows what, and the replica would be here, living your life, and doing it EXACTLY as you would. But you would still be there.

Of course that statement renders it completely......... something. It may not be mass nor energy, but I would have to say that it exists.

As such the scientifically oriented among us can comment on something which :

The existence of same is taken, whether proven or just accepted due to the preponderance of the evidence and;

It has no mass, nor can it be considered energy.

T

PS; Knock at the door, no time to proof. Take it easy on me about any typos, will edit later if I can.

T




kdsub -> RE: to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (7/23/2009 10:02:06 PM)

I'm not sure that is correct...unless we have a constantly changing universe...where the laws change randomly although that is a very real possibility.

I think there is a difference in not knowing the answer to something and not knowing how to find an answer to something. Otherwise I believe it is possible the time will come when if we desire to know something we will have the tools to know it absolutely.

In an infinite universe...if it is one...we could not know all at one time because it is infinite…but we could have the knowledge to understand anything as we become aware of it.

I am just talking possibilities not probabilities.

Butch




willbeurdaddy -> RE: to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (7/24/2009 8:17:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

unless we have a constantly changing universe...where the laws change randomly although that is a very real possibility.




Not sure what you mean by this. What laws might change randomly? The laws of physics, which underly all physical phenomena, have remained unchanged since science started, only our level of understanding of them has improved. Or is their rate of random change so slow that it just hasnt happened in the course of human history, and its "a very real possibility" that they will change randomly in the future? (In which case its no more real a possibility as god's existence.)




Termyn8or -> RE: to build a human brain..... and kill the soul? (7/24/2009 8:29:50 AM)

I would say it's more likely a case of our perception of those laws changing.

T




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