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RE: Naturally It's Poly - 7/25/2009 9:59:03 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso
David certainly had lots of wives, but also lots of concubines.

Polygamy is characteristic for populations that mutilate the penis of their males. It is an attempt to avoid genetic diseases, which are rife in such populations. (About five to six times more prevalent than in the European indigenous Christian population.) Of course, the social disparity caused by instituted polygamy causes more problems. One of which, for example, being that rape as a sexual behaviour may be expected to be selected for in unmarried males with little chance of acquiring a wife in a legitimate way. Another: war with other populations to acquire females.

In christian populations that do not mutilate the penis of their male, the social and evolutionary attractor is monogamy of married couples - and especially of the male in such a marriage. This pure monogamy reduces the impact and spread through the population of sexually transmitted diseases.

I do agree, that there is value in polygamy, in the sense of people with different strong and weak points complementing each other in such a way that together they function as a complete and efficient unit, whereas individually each in some way is rather disfunctional. That value therefore is not sexual in nature.

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Post #: 21

RE: Naturally It's Poly - 7/25/2009 10:07:41 AM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
Despite the fact that I think human biological and social habits still play a big part in the building it, the fact that "happiness" is now an a la carte dish we are each able to modify to our desires through our imaginations means that society-imposed stimuli become just as valid in creating the new, evolving construct of what is "naturally" human.

Or... the way I like to think of it... It surpasses my understanding that folks will look at what things (this and others) that the VAST majority of humans are doing and declare them "un-natural" human behavior. I can imagine David Attenborough narrating the nature series on "humans" and talking about mating arrangements being primary solo, but more complex relationships are known and while life-bonding is a definite facet, cheating happens (heh, oddly a lot like numerous other animal species).

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Post #: 22

RE: Naturally It's Poly - 7/25/2009 10:32:19 AM

LPslittleclip

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much of the current bias against poly and other sexual expressions are derived from the dominating religion. in the us the British heavily influenced our culture. the primary ones being the judao-Christian philosophy's. in country's like Thailand where the indigenous people developed their own sexual views and expressions it is completely acceptable to have homo, bi, trans, and poly int the community. where as in India the sexual expression is so stifled that those who do not conform are cast out of not just the family but the community. now for me i have discovered poly and it works for me, but that is in the context of my dynamic that i share with others. i have a wife and i am collared by my Mistress who has a Husband who is a Top but not of me. for U/us it works, for others the poly relationship id varied and different, so to each or combination of such there own.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 23

RE: Naturally It's Poly - 7/25/2009 11:01:00 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

Compersion does not seem to come naturally

I have to concur with the comments of an earlier author. What -is- 'naturally'? If it happens, and happens as one person's response to the circumstances of their lives, whether it happens in one person or in 100 people, the fact that it happened, and happened on its own behalf, within the person involved, means that it -is- natural. It happened, therefore it -is-, completely naturally.

If some can embrace compersion on their own, then regardless of whether someone -else- can do so, or whether a majority of humans can do so... or if only -one- human can do so, compersion is one possible 'natural' state for human beings.

Natural means nothing more than that it has not been forced into existence or its individual state has not been externally altered by the application, by a third-party, of some mechanical or artificial chemical means. If we experience spontaneous emotion, whether that emotion be lust, compersion, hope, etc., that experience is completely 'natural'.

What is natural? It is natural for us to exist as we are, with no apologies. That is natural, and each of us is different and attracted or repelled by different things, so naturally, our capacity for differing relationships is both 'natural' and expected!

Dame Calla

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Post #: 24

RE: Naturally It's Poly - 7/25/2009 12:47:12 PM

ranja

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I indeed took my observations from this bdsm context... we are on a bdsm site... mostly people are here for kinky things and sexy things or so i thought... see that's mostly... ok totally... why i am here... but indeed i might be mistaken to think others are too...

so what exactly is poly when we talk about this then?

just a bunch of people living together in a community and some of them have sex with some others?
Well i was brought up in a tiny village... some people were 'swingers' was my village poly? or was it simply a case of some members of the community being a bit loose and kinky?

or when a man keeps a mistress... is he poly?... or was the word for that a cheat? or if his wife knows and agrees with it could it be described as an arrangement of sorts? or is he poly?

or a woman who has sex with several different men... is she poly or a whore? or simply a bit free...or even desperate...or if her husband shares her with his best mate every so often is she poly again... maybe forced poly?

I live in a family unit... i live in a community... i hire a window washer who comes around once a month... i would not mind paying the window washer in kind if that would be ok with my Husband (and the window washer of course)... would that make me poly or just a bit of a desperate housewife?

should i consider myself to be poly-curious?

I agree with the person who mentioned jealousy issues can be very difficult in poly set-ups and for that reason i am inclined to think it is easier to be a just a couple with maybe some other...secondary contacts... but being like that, the couple might consider themselves poly.
I would consider it an arrangement really... as i would paying my window washer in kind... a very nice arrangement.... i still have all that convincing to do...

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 25

RE: Naturally It's Poly - 7/25/2009 2:48:17 PM

LillyoftheVally

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Yes Ranja this is a BDSM site, however not all people who identify as poly are into BDSM however your post came from that framework.

Poly means different to different people, I guess yes a cheater could be described as poly, however I would say the lack of consent makes it more complex.

There is a thread on the poly forum that is about waht it means to be poly, so I won't go into that part of your questions here, if you are genuinely interested that is.

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Post #: 26

RE: Naturally It's Poly - 7/25/2009 7:43:34 PM

autoRelease

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Something I've noticed is that no matter how open-minded people are about relationships these days, we're still making one crucial assumption: That the person(s) one has sex with should be one's life partners. Why? Living with someone doesn't prevent them from cheating, and we have DNA tests to prove parentage now anyway. If someone is happy in another living situation, why should they have to give that up to get a long-term sexual partner?

Personally, no matter how much I loved someone I would not want to live with them unless I had my own room. Doctors are saying now that if you have problems sleeping you shouldn't share your bed with your pets - Funny how they don't mention sharing your bed with your partner! I know some couples do sleep apart but for the most part it's viewed as a negative thing.

Even beyond polyamory, there are still many preconceived ideas surrounding relationships we need to shed.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 27

RE: Naturally It's Poly - 7/25/2009 9:34:32 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Or... the way I like to think of it... It surpasses my understanding that folks will look at what things (this and others) that the VAST majority of humans are doing and declare them "un-natural" human behavior.

It's that human imagination again that leads us to believe we can somehow transcend what we are or that everything we do isn't, by definition, natural to our species.

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Post #: 28

RE: Naturally It's Poly - 7/25/2009 10:25:50 PM

couldbemage

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I'd say natural is having 1 official partner, cheating in secret, all while becoming incensed if any of your partners cheat on you.

I wouldn't say poly is natural. Possible healthier.

(in reply to NihilusZero)

Post #: 29

RE: Naturally It's Poly - 7/25/2009 10:29:40 PM

Esinn

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quote:

We have historically been a territorial species as well,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

And to be honest, from a historical point of view, living in a group setting - whilst being quite a good thing from an affilliation and belonging POV - it sucks from a health standpoint and increased mortality rates.

the.dark.

"it sucks from a health standpoint and increased mortality rates."

Can you give us some more information on that point?

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Post #: 30

RE: Naturally It's Poly - 7/25/2009 10:35:59 PM

Esinn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: couldbemage

I'd say natural is having 1 official partner, cheating in secret, all while becoming incensed if any of your partners cheat on you.

I wouldn't say poly is natural. Possible healthier.

I provided quite a few journals. I will allow you to object on some type of philosophical term - but to just object with out providing any useful information?

:D

You object how you like. Although in a conversation it is always meaningful if you give a little meaning. The majority of modern scholarship to my finding, although I did not initially mention it, declares the verdict is in - naturally we are poly. I presented a little background, evidence if you will, on why I believe this.

If you follow the 'anti-poly' or the negative stigma attached to it this movement seems to be well under 500 - 1000 years old and it seems to be religious.

I am open to being wrong. Although it only seems to be on Friday's 1 or two times a year.

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RE: Naturally It's Poly - 7/25/2009 10:38:13 PM

Esinn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: autoRelease

Even beyond polyamory, there are still many preconceived ideas surrounding relationships we need to shed.

Poly is natural. Although I am not sure what these preconceived ideas are, you have not told us... I do agree if they exist to live more successful within out relationships we must shed them

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RE: Naturally It's Poly - 7/25/2009 10:54:09 PM

heartcream

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Then again because something has been done or felt about endlessly a certain way does not necessarily mean it is natural. We have huge developmental obstacles as the human race I feel.

For instance, because one of humans favorite fantasies is a man behind another man having sex with him while he is behind a woman having sex with her, does not mean there is no more to it. Asking why we are naturally inclined might be an interesting point to question from, in my opinion. It would be a natural inclination due to the cards as we have held them thus far but again, not necessarily truly natural.

I would say if your true hearts desire is to be poly, well hopefully you could find a like minded group and if not, hopefully you could find your like-minded partner. We are all individuals and if we can find the best way to be ourselves and get our innermost dreams fulfilled I think that is really natural and awesome too.

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Post #: 33

RE: Naturally It's Poly - 7/25/2009 11:02:10 PM

RealGirl4One

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As I've stated before, the darkness and peril found within Dante's Inferno pale in comparison to the danger to be found with more than one female sharing the same house, the same bed, the same man.

Heaven would mercifully spare us. I have witnessed the treachery and darkness of heart, the deceit, jealousy and cunning that possess women vying for the same prize.

Not in a million years. I think it is merely a self-serving view to believe that nature dictates multiple partners. Does it also dictate insanity?

(in reply to HeadmasterDavid)

Post #: 34

RE: Naturally It's Poly - 7/25/2009 11:08:24 PM

Esinn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xiam

Yeah, i was thinking more about polygamy in the context of multiple partners than the idea of communal living arrangements, as that's the impression i got from the OP. :)

The OP was thinking context of nomadic tribes. Small communities of people whose survival was dependent upon each other for survival of their gene pool. Without their survival we would not be here.

That said the majority of respected mainstream scholarship(I have read) seems to have reached the some conclusion. We are biological animals. Speaking from this point of view all research seems to demonstrate it is poly which is 'natural'. I am not seeking to debate the word 'natural' - by that all I mean is biologically programmed. As most(the VAST majority) of ants are anti-poly because of this programming. Without such programming their 'tribe' would fail.

I have about 80 links I can share on this research - in private.

The modern anti-poly(using the word anti loosely) seems religious. I am open to being wrong there.

I can sincerely I have personally been more inclined to seek out and establish monogamous relationships - all but the current one have failed, will this one?

I am troubled you see.... By my understanding of biology and evolution. Am I, are we all, being forced to fight against a biological 'mechanism' because of a negative stigma imposed upon poly only 500 years ago or......

(It is 2:07am. I stop thinking rationally about 2:00am) Any more thoughts are welcomed! :D

-E

< Message edited by Esinn -- 7/25/2009 11:11:07 PM >

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RE: Naturally It's Poly - 7/25/2009 11:13:32 PM

Esinn

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Before I pass out.....

I am not seeking to debate the word 'natural' - by that all I mean is biologically programmed.
Do not get stuck on my poor choice of words in the OP.

Good night

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RE: Naturally It's Poly - 7/26/2009 12:10:36 AM

islandgyrl

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What is natural is reproduction. That is what is pre-programmed into everything; animal, insect, plant. A woman is able to reproduce for a short period of time. A man is able to reproduce longer. Also, a woman, historically, would carry and care for the offspring. So, if reproduction is pre-programmed into us, man has a greater possibility of having more than one female partner in his lifetime to carry on the species.

Society or religion may place limits on what is acceptable. Additionally resources such as food, clothing, and shelter all have a factor. The male, as the bigger, stronger individual (at least in hunter/gatherer societies) must provide for the woman and children. If food is scarce then it may limit how large a family a man could have. If the community places value on material things, having multiple women/partners and therefore more children; the man or head of the household would be looked down upon in the community if he could not provide for his family. The community would may have to give up some of their resources to provide for the other man's family. Wealthy landholders were more apt to have multiple partners because they could provide for them.

Family dynamics have changed partly due to advances in technology and agriculture. Women have also been involved with multiple partners for pretty much the same reasons and the process of natural selection. But I will leave it at that as this is long enough. For some interesting reading try The Moral Animal by Robert Wright. At least it made sense to me; "why we are the way we are".

Island

(in reply to Esinn)

Post #: 37

RE: Naturally It's Poly - 7/26/2009 12:45:45 AM

DemonKia

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This brings up some interesting thoughts, for me, about our biological programming, what's natural for people, et al.

Reproductive sex versus recreational sex. I'd hazard a guess that in modern cultures there are hundreds, even thousands, of recreational sexual acts for every reproductive one. So all that programming that's about reproduction is, um, not so relevant to most of ones modern human sexual life . . . ..

Nearly every other mammalian species has estrus. That is, visible, discernible signs of ovulation / fertility in the female. & thus sex in those species is pretty much only about reproduction. (Let's set aside our primate cousins, the chimps, especially the bonobos, for the moment. Yes, they have both estrus & quite a bit of recreational sex play, but discussions about biology generally get complicated very quickly given that there is so much diversity of behaviors . . . . .)

In human females estrus disappeared sometime in our evolutionary past, & this change allows human females to copulate throughout the month, rather than just in their prime fertile period. Thus, one could say, with some accuracy, that humans are 'naturally' designed for recreational sex in a way that's not terribly true about most of the rest of the planet's lifeforms.

quote:

ORIGINAL: islandgyrl

What is natural is reproduction.

(in reply to islandgyrl)

Post #: 38

RE: Naturally It's Poly - 7/26/2009 2:47:14 AM

couldbemage

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...but only humans have intentional reproductive sex. And that started pretty much after we were done evolving. Every animal has sex purely because it feels good.

I am very pro-poly, and live in a poly household.

I think it is quite clear that sleeping around is a biological imperative. Churchgoing mono vanilla couples constantly cheat, despite enormous pressure to conform to mono norm. They risk everything they hold dear, and still cheat.

Of that I am convinced, but not necessarily that poly is natural. It seems too self congradulatory and too "nuts and berries" at the same time. I've known many sociologists, and they aren't the sort of people likely to believe that we are programmed for self destructive behavior.

...but I'm a cynic.

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Post #: 39

RE: Naturally It's Poly - 7/26/2009 4:07:39 AM

LillyoftheVally

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

Before I pass out.....

I am not seeking to debate the word 'natural' - by that all I mean is biologically programmed.
Do not get stuck on my poor choice of words in the OP.

Still means the same thing, you are still dictating

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to Esinn)

Post #: 40

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